skywalker said:

"3121" is like a combination of all of the styles Prince has been known for. Its like he wanted to throw a little of everything in there. One of those parts - i.e. part of the blue print - is "PR" style rock and dramatic ballads. "Fury" and "The Dance" both fit in that mold.
[Edited 5/31/06 20:17pm]

NorthernLad said:

Well I respect what you've said and thanks for your answer. I can understand where you're coming from with the parties, especially the time in which they were held but I remember fans not complaining that much about them.

Artists don't create great art because they decide to. Just like athletes don't decide to have career performances.

You gotta get in the zone.

Prince was in the zone from '81 to '84. He was operating on something more than just talent and determination. He was like a conduit of inspiration, a vehicle for some primal energy. Like Michael Jordan dropping 63, Prince was unconscious when he made "Purple Rain." Or superconscious. There's definitely a shift in consciousness when you're making history. You're no longer an individual with egoistic desires. You're an instrument for larger powers.

It only happens for select individuals, though. Only those who put in the hard work and preparation will produce "Purple Rains" and "Thrillers." It's lightning in a bottle. And it's reserved for those who master their craft.

I think Prince is in a mini-zone right now. Induction into the Hall may have settled some anxieties and recharged his confidence. Public acknowledgement of that magnitude has a way of opening people up.

luv4all7 said:

why the heck not?

it's all the same generation, more or less...

NorthernLad said:

I fully agree with you 150% thats why i cant listen to 3121 ..I get the feeling everytime i put it on that he´s saying FUCK YOU...You will be on my shit because im prince and you will buy any shit i throw at you...But If i can keep you and get the jessica simpson,britney,kanye,beyonce´crowd too then im gonna FULLY be the man !!!
*incense and candles is R kelly wannabee bullshit
*Lolita is soft and wet minus and controverial anything =BALLS
*Black sweat is Kiss filtered through the Neptunes uber radio friendly production style..
*T A C = let me get some of that latin markets $$$ with a throwaway tune
*Fury = wow look cant you guys see that i stll can make a poppy lil ditty..even tho´its trash compared to the ones i used to make..
*Love ..is ok but i hate his attempts to use hip slang words like bounce..and the general fact that it could be Any commercial artist´track..
*get on the boat...I will take the work..pretty man...or musicology first thank you...better yet...gimmie james browns give it up or turn me loose..
The rest of it...Who gives a shit....
Where is the dude slappin the bass and doing unconventional shit with his voice and production and blowing away all the fools that sound alike ???

NorthernLad said:

All Prince's music ends up the way it does due to 'a creative process' it doesn't just appear fully formed. Who's to say Prince wasn't thinking consciously or commercially when he made Sign O' The Times? After all, he'd just had 2 creative albums fall well short of the success of Purple Rain and was in need of a new commercial hit.

Anyway, the 'checklist blueprint' you refer to applies as much to albums such as Diamonds & Pearls, Symbol, Chaos & Disorder, The Gold Experience, Rave, as well as those 80s albums some of which were successful and some were not. That's just the sort of album Prince does, natural creative process or not, I don't see that he's consciously following a blueprint to success at all. Certainly if he was desperate to have a hit like Purple Rain he'd release a rock/pop album which practically everybody 'thinks' a Prince album should be!



For the record, Sign sold only 1.6 million copies in the US which sounds a lot but was seen as disappointing at the time - it is comparable to Parade which most would claim was a failure. Prince himself was so disappointed that Sign wasn't a bigger hit, he cancelled the USA tour and went onto the next project. At the time critics thought, much like many do with Emancipation, that it would have been better as a single-disc album, in other words, half the songs were not that good.

metalorange said:

NorthernLad said:


I think if you look back, take out the non-commercial stuff like TRC and the jazz-fusion music and One Nite Alone out of the equation, all Prince's 'commercial sounding' music since 2000 such as the tracks on The Slaughterhouse and The Chocolate Invasion upto Musicology has been of a similar style musically. I don't think 3121 smacks of desperation, it is just his style right now - although I think 3121 is a move forward musically on those previous songs, it is just that bit edgier and better constructed.

I think the problem you have with 3121 is purely that there is very little of 'Prince' in the songs - ie, you don't feel you get to know his state of mind or feelings on anything. You interpret this as Prince isn't being heartfelt, and therefore not putting creative effort into the album.

I think he certainly has tried to restrain his personal issues on this album and create something purely 'pop' and enjoyable. Perhaps that does mean the album lacks some depth. Although revealing your attitudes doesn't always make a great Prince album - with Musicology not only did you have the lament of 'Reflection' but his views on the state of music today (the title song) politics (Dear Mr. Man, Cinnamon Girl) plus marriage and monogamy (On The Couch, The Marrying Kind) but over-all most people think Musicology is one of his weaker albums despite the success.

On 3121 he even tones down his sermonising, only coming vaguely close with The Word and Get On The Boat. Apart from 'Fury' (if you take it as a veiled reference to Mani) the other songs are all much ado about nothing. But I would still argue they are great Prince tunes despite that, it is not always a requirement of a good tune that there be lots of emotional depth behind it, and that Prince has not worked just as hard on them.
[Edited 6/1/06 4:15am]

Again, what makes you assume that Prince needing to feed his ego had anything to do with letting fans in to watch him play? You talked about fan friendliness....what isn't fan friendly about that? The fact that it was late night? Whatever. I ask you again, what other star of Prince's magnitude has allowed fans that intimate access for free? If you go with your argument that means that every musician/performers motivation for playing to a live crowd is due to ego.




Again, you are making some vastly overreaching assumptions. I still don't understand why you don't view the Paisley Park parties/concerts as being fan friendly. Did you ever go to one? If you had, I think your opinion would be different.
[Edited 6/1/06 7:41am]

"3121" is like a combination of all of the styles Prince has been known for. Its like he wanted to throw a little of everything in there. One of those parts - i.e. part of the blue print - is "PR" style rock and dramatic ballads. "Fury" and "The Dance" both fit in that mold.

A combination of all the styles he has been known for? Well that covers a hell of a lot of ground. From the 1st album, Prince has had rock and "dramatic ballads". From day one he has been known for throwing a little bit of everything on his albums. Suddenly, with 3121 you aren't okay with it? Again, you can only guess as to why Prince does it that way.

You have convinced yourself that Prince is doing it because he thinks it's expected. However, one could just as easily speculate that 3121 is the way for another reason. One could speculate that, like always, Prince made 3121 the way he did just because that's how he wanted to do it.
[Edited 6/1/06 7:43am]

I agree with all of this. Couldn't have said it better myself.

What's rediculous is the way all the other entertainers are today. They all look and act like normal everyday people. They don't look or act like stars at all.

Prince is just doing what he's supposed to be doing. He's a star and he looks and acts the part. He went on a show that promotes a bunch of dead boring ass singers who go on to be stars and do nothing different than the rest of today's boring music scene. They are way beneath someone like Prince so why shouldn't he treat them like they are beneath him. Hell, that's what real stars do....at least the interesing ones. Prince refused to sing on "We Are The World" back in 1985. There were some great singers that participated in that project. If he wouldn't participate with great singers, then why should he participate with a bunch of dead asses like the ones on that show?

Prince has got the right look and attitude. Too bad no one else has it anymore. Everyone else looks like the average Joe on the street. Hell, if I want to see people like that, I will just look out the window.

metalorange said:[quote]

NorthernLad said:

Very good, thoughtful post. A few things:

"Diamonds & Pearls" was a commercial album, much like "3121". But I think it's different for a number of reasons. It was a change of direction for Prince. Think about the late 80's, early 90's - "Diamonds & Pearls" was a bold move. It was a dive into a more R&B sounding style, with strong elements of hip hop. "Gett Off" was an audacious single. "Cream" was a brilliant song with subtle guitars and a lovely understated vocal... it didn't really sound like anything P had done in the past. There were some ghastly miscalculations, but "Diamonds & Pearls" at the time was a fresh and new-sounding album. Also, "Diamonds & Pearls" - unlike "Musicology" and "3121" - was not coming out after a period in the commercial wilderness. He had no reason for a desperate attempt to return to the charts, as he had never left the charts.

"Musicology" and the activities surrounding it were a very carefully crafted comeback. It was clearly commercially motivated, and the music on the album is in tandem with his actions. He had more to gain from "Musicology" than he did from albums like "D&P", and he NEEDED a hit more than at any time in his career (apart perhaps from Rave.) That NEED comes through in the music, in my opinion.

You know, I've defended "3121" from day one, because I think it's a strong album. It's well-crafted, great songwriting, and I enjoy listening to it. But like I said earlier, the problem I have with it I think you hit on - it doesn't seem like there is much of Prince himself in the album. "The Gold Experience" was a big, brash, in-your-face album that had some incredible and gutsy material. The courtroom scene in I Hate U.... The vitriol in "Billy Jack Bitch".... the astonishing guitar histrionics in "Shhh"... and that drum sound. Damn. It was a great album, and those songs are some of the best he has done. It was diverse, like "3121", but it never felt like he was trying to touch all the stylistic bases. It was different and original.

Even albums like "Come" and "Chaos & Disorder" just seem so much more real and original than "3121". The material isn't as strong, but they have an underground, "who gives a fuck" quality that is endearing. "3121" is like: LOOK AT ME. I'M PRINCE. SEE WHAT I CAN DO? At least, that's my feel for the album.

Anyways, I'm starting to repeat myself. I think you get the jist of what I'm saying.

skywalker said:

I think i've already explained why I think those shows weren't really fan friendly in a broad sense. You don't think it's egotistic to keep fans waiting until some ungodly hour of the night, then swoop down from the mansion and "wow them"? While millions of fans around the world could only wish they were there? We have a difference of opinion on what is fan friendly, and I do think it was ego driven. That's just my take on it.

Prince is no longer a 24 year old uber-star. Showing up with dancers half his age to sing a song like "Lolita" in front of the teenybopper set... I'm sorry, 'tis just a little pathetic to me. He needs to move on and do something of substance. That's just my opinion, of course.

[/quote]

vainandy said:

True, Prince was not necessarily in "the commercial wilderness" previous to Diamonds and Pearls, but his commercial appeal in the USA was rapidly evaporating. He had just bombed badly with Graffiti Bridge, and , besides Batman, his newer albums in the USA could barely muster 1.5 million sales a piece. Parade, Lovesexy, and even Sign "o" the Times were viewed as being disappointing in their sales in the USA compared to what he had been selling a few years ago.

You make it sound like he wasn't desperately calculating for another "hit" album
with Diamonds and Pearls---the truth is he was. Maybe even more so than he was for Musicology and 3121.

Again, describe to me a behavior by a band/artist of Prince's magnitude that is more fan friendly than those Paisley Park shows. Also, you never answered the question--Did you ever go to one of those Paisley Park shows? Did you ever go to the Celebrations? Those, my friend, are the definition of accessable and fan friendly. What more do you want Prince to do? Take you to lunch?



When Prince was 24 it was '82. He was not yet an uberstar, and he played on shows like "solid Gold". Also, he just played an amazing two night stand in Vegas. Have you read the reports? It's not like all he is doing is showing up on "teeny bopper shows" the dude is workin' it in other ways other than commercial TV. Just my opinion of course.

I love Prince's music in spite of Prince!!

...much like I love Michael Jackson's music in spite of Michael Jackson!!