While Prince's undisputed musical abilities are remarkable at the very least, his attempt at intellectualizing, both on disc as well as in concert, are ridicoulous. As a fervent sopporter of his desier to branch off in a seemingly endless array of directions (even if some of those culminate in not so impressive musical results) I oppsoes his recent attempts to discuss world history and politics in a blatant and often ignorant manner. For a man who has spent a couple of decades preaching about love and unity to discuss the eventual demise of all who do not follow a particular religious path, is at best rediculous. As a Jew who has lost family in in the Hollocaust I can tell you that the allusions made in TRC offend me deeply. Family nam is one of the greatest songs I've heard in a while, and it took me a while to clue in to what he saying, but make no mistake Prince's comments suggest Jews as being the devil (not uncommon amongst Jehovah Witnesses and their beliefs). It is quite clear that this man is either very confused or simply full of some sort of hate.Prince is the man musically but should not be perpetuating the sort of half-minded hog wash that helps promote divsion and hate.

He doesnt need to be an intellectual to put his beliefs into his music just like no other musicians need to be. Why even expect musicians to be intellectuals at all?

Prince has always spouted off without not really knowing what he is talking about. I just listen to his music now, not what he says.

Whether you consider him to be an intellectual and whether he's an anti-semite seem to be two different issues. The gist of your post seems to be that he's been anti-semitic lately. What do you feel he has said that suggests that Jews are "the devil"?

cofiko said:

I'm glad that never happens on the org.

GoldiesParade said:

There are no lyrics in 'Family Name' that allude to Jewish people being 'Devils'. If the statement is explicitly made why haven't you quoted it?

In my experience the Jehovah's Witnesses bear no malice or hostlity toward Jewish people. Jehovah's Witnesses are taught to embrace all creeds and cultures. Again if this view is 'not uncommon among Jehovah's Witnesses and their beliefs' provide the evidence. In fact, thousands of Jehovah's Witnesses were MURDERED alongside Jewish people in the Holocaust. Check some History books before you post B.S.

Without proof your accusations are little more than conjecture.

Prince doesn't sound 'full of hate' on 'The Rainbow Children' to me. You however, sound grossly oversensitive.

The line; been hiding behind corporate eyes... devil devil, now you go to go... given that he mentions the three obviously Jewish names seems to suggest the song is about , to some degree, his feelings about jews

Universaluv said:

LOL!
NEVER!!!

In the tradition of General Discussion, THIS is gonna be a long arse thread.

Prince also mentions overpaid Preachers. Are we to presumme that the Preacher is Jewish as well?

Again, Prince does not directly state that Jewish people are Devils. You have made that link all by yourself.

I think you have to seperate the verses and the chorus of "Family Name".
In the verses he talks about a variety of things and the chorus is about people seeing the cruelness of what happened to jewish people (but not only to jewish people) during the holocaust, but not the results of the slavery (slaves were given new names).

I agree that it might be easy to misunderstand, but I think Prince intended this to be controversial and wanted people to think and talk about it.

Please don't seek 4 texts 2 proof that you are being attacked. If U seek U always will find something. It looks like typical 'victim' behavior.


---
Don't go in2 the dark 2 easy.

dualboot said:

I thought the same thought. Thanks

I do think it's fair to ask the question "what's the deal with the jewish names in 'Family Name'". I wondered that myself. Hopefully, someone will do so at the Celebration. Till we hear something form Prince more concrete I'll reserve judgment.

it is no that I feel a victim. I am more concerned that when people in the position to reach and influence great numbers of people abuse that position problems can arise. Most people seem to eat up what their favorite celebrities/artists do and say and when that artist is not socially responsible, the consequences can be drastic.

cofiko said:

I am not sure I understand, what has he done to offend you?

And you can believe that I am not gullible when it comes to Prince.

cofiko said:

Most people? That's a bit of a generalization. Granted there are some people who may do that, but if you've been on the org for 5 minutes you'll realize that there are alot of people who can think for themselves.
[This message was edited Mon Jun 24 13:02:12 PDT 2002 by Universaluv]

Well, I never thought Prince was a good intellectual. Most of his songs always had average/superficial lyrics for me. I always thought that people like Meshell, Tracy Chapman, Living Colour and Bob Dylan were much better lyrically.
But ironically, I think TRC has some of his best lyrics ever. I dont like the ´pop opera´ stuff of verses like ´Surrounded the palace´, etc. But ´Family Name´ and some parts of ´Last december´ and ´Everlasting now´ have some very interesting questions. I know ´FN´ may sound offensive to jews, but he is trying to say that black people suffered a lot (and still do), and they didn´t have the same media support, movies, etc
I think it´s safe for me to talk about it because technically I am a latin, so I am not talking of my own cause. But let´s face it. The Holocaust was one of the most horrible things in History. But slavery was EQUALLY horrible (see the movie Amistad), and you don´t see many movies and TV reports about it, while I´ve seen dozen about the Holocaust. I understand that was Prince´s point.
Personally, I think we ALL must be treated equally. I am not defending black people, jews, asians, etc.

your absolutelty right, I should have said some people.
I would agree that in any given situation MOST people think for themselves. I do think however that when one is reaching vast amounts of people a certain percentage will swallow what they're fed.

gustavorivas, are you aware that far more than half of the toal jewish population ON THE PLANET was killed in the Hollocaust. Slavery was a terrible thing and no one peoples hardships could ever possibly outweigh anothers, however, it is imperative that people distinguish between opression and extermination. It is unfortunate that Prince's lyrics attempt to weigh the hardshipps of the Blacks and slavery against the Jews and The Hollocaust.

one last thing..
calldappl...in reference to your point, jews were also given new family names. I have close friends whose family names were changed in poland and austria in order to survive the rounding up of jews that took place. It hurts me to think that Prince is suggesting jews still have their family name while blacks do not. I assume this is what he is saying given the mention of the names Rosenbloom,Goldstruck,Pearlman.

cofiko said:

It's also important that people realize that slaves were killed for sport. Whether it was called extermination or not, makes no difference. It was not just oppression the way that the mass media or most schools would have you believe. People should study more about it instead of just assuming what went on...ironically it's the same things that some here accuse Prince of doing.


Isn't that what you just did? This is how I knew it would turn out, one against the other. It accomplishes nothing.

it's true that he's not Sting or Peter Gabriel, but he's not a dumb either, anyways a person can be "intellectual" and stupid too.

jnoel said:

True. And it's not necessarilly a good thing if the music is intellectual. And as much as I love Sting, sometimes he flirts with being pretentious rather than intellectual. So does Prince for that matter, but I'm just saying watch what you ask for. Sometimes there's nothing wrong with a song that you can put on and not have to worry if you've read enough books to get it.

jnoel said:

:O

Wow, this thread is turning into "who suffered the most!"...

Is it really possible to answer this? No. But I can almost guarantee you that personal experience and/or history can bias a person--for example, if I have had more experience with African Americans or if I am myself black, quite possibly I would see American slavery as causing the most suffering. If I am Jewish or have Jewish friends or family, most likely I would see their history as being the most tragic.

This thread really isn't about who had it worse--it's about whether or not Prince is making an anti-Semitic statement, right? That answer is open to personal interpretation-- otherwise only asking the man himself to elaborate upon his meaning is going to give us an answer.

I was once a Jehovah witness. My brother was murdered and
my entire family fell apart. When I was 19 I became affiliated with witnesses. They offered hope and security
to me when I was lost and confused. However after time
the message of their organization being the only one
with the "TRUTH" didn't seem fair. I am a people person
and have met many people of different races, religion and
sexual persuasion and couldn't preach door to door anymore
that message of the inclucion illusion. However if it works
for Prince, than that is wonderful. Our choices in sprituality is ours and our relationship with God is ours and ours only. Roles and boundaries do serve to keep families intact. There is room on the planet for many
paths as long as love is the gas. Prince's music will always
reflect his thoughts and that's A Ok with me, because he
does it so well!!!

Light1 said:

Oh man, can we not turn this into another JW thread. I know it was briefly mentioned in the original post, but I don't think it's the focus of this discussion. Somebody want to start yet another thread about that subject, cool. But I just hope this thread doesn't continue that played out subject.

cofiko said:

If those were generic names, I agree its somewhat suspicious that he chose 3 obviously Jewish last names. However, those may be real people he dealt with in the industry. If that's the case, it's nothing more than coincidence that all three names happen to sound Jewish. Who knows for sure right now.

I didn't associate the line "hiding behind corporate eyes" with Jews, and don't see any reason to. The "devil" he's speaking of is the greed in the industry or any company for that matter.

Musicians can also be intellectuals, after all, we often gain insight or inspiration from a good song. Not all of them are, certainly not Prince. Prince sounds his smartest when he's not trying to be. Songs like "Mountains", "Pink Cashmere", "Power Fantastic", and "In All My Dreams" have a certain charm and transcend mundane thoughts.

"Oh man, can we not turn this into another JW thread. " yes, please,
What i find a bit worrying is that P seems to be proud to read only the Bible, come on man there's so many great books with such diversity, try " one hundred years of solitude"...

SkletonKee said:

I have been know to exclaim "Godddamn stupid fucking intellectuals!"