NDRU said:

Agreed--today's Detroit Free Press described his appearance in just that way, ". . to show 'em how it's done."

I think making this thread a sticky is editorializing in some way.

"Sell out" is one of those heavily loaded terms, like "hypocrite", "ideological", etc. : if you know the person uttering it, you can probably find something in their life that fits just as well.

But since we're chronic complainers on this board, let's argue!

When did Prince first "sell out"? Anytime Prince tried something more commercial and less daring, you could conceivably call him a "sell out". Will it be the Prince album, the Batman soundtrack, Diamonds and Pearls, Rave, Musicology? I'm a long time fan and Prince wanting mainstream appeal has been something I expect from him for a long time. The way he choses to do that -- poppier songs, appearing on brainless, featherweight morning shows, showing up at some award event barely related to his work -- well I have my standards and I can be disappointed too, but I recognize he's got a payroll and investments to attend to, and for that you do need exposure.

The fact he got it this week on a show that's not my cup of tea is counterbalanced by the fact he didn't do a Manilow and play the AI game from A to Z. He showed up to perform in front of nearly 40 million viewers, obviously in his terms. If he had done a duet with a contestant, there's a good chance I might have recoiled in disbelief. But he came on with the Twinz, "did his thing" and left, not even taking the time to acknowledge Ryan Seacrest. It was like "I did your show because it's terrific exposure but I did it in my terms, so bye!"

sad is the song washed up,thats all i can think of,what a sad story!!!!!i send prince to dave chapelle for counceling he might learn something about integrity !!!!!

NuPwr319 said:[quote]

NDRU said:

A wee bit pretentious there i think.

When there was talk earlier about Prince being on AI, I was against it wholeheartedly and said as much! I for one did not want to see a bunch of wannabes murdering Prince's hits! I watched last night, thanks to J7, and was quite pleased with the way his performance was done. He showed up, did the damn thang, and struted off in true Prince fashion. I loved it.

I think if he'd done the show the way they wanted him to do it, then yes, I'd have felt like he was selling out but he didn't. He did it his way. There was no selling out about it!!

thesexofit said:[quote]

NuPwr319 said:

I don't think he intended to show em how it's done,but that's what he did. lol lol

I just think that it was an opportunity that presented itself. I'm sure he struggled with his decision. I'm sure he thought that some people might think he was selling-out. Maybe he even thought he was selling out. Don't ya think that may have entered his mind?

But it was an opportunity to be seen by a huge audience. It was an opportunity to compete with the proto-type pop idols that have been monopolizing the charts of late. I just think it's cool, that he may have won over a few new fans outside of increasing his record sales which may be important to him.(I LOVE 3121, so I really don't care how much he sells. It's a hit to me.) Young people are talking about him on A.I. related message boards. He really doesn't have a lot of options to reach those young people. In a way, the MTV audience is more interested in Ashlee Simpson-types--and the Kelly Clarkson's. So the music-video format isn't as effective as it used to be.

However, appearing on American Idol not only introduced Prince to fans of pop, but also showed that he is hand over fist above what is currently charting at #1. I'm telling ya, people are realizing what they are missing with these here today, gone today music artists. It's sad for them because the machine is just using them. Through his performance, Prince may have shown the young artists and the audience that it doesn't have to be that way. I'm telling ya: it's simple a way to compete. And he was successful.

Isel said:

You are so dead on it Isel!

paisleypark4 said:

Isel said:

To be honest, i couldn't care less what he does, but why should any of what u wrote concern Prince? Does he really still think he has to stay relevant? It just seems like a desperate ploy to get sales, as if he still cares about sales LOL

Not even the ultimate sales obsesser, jacko, would go on a karoke show.

Isel said:

On point! It was a brilliant move to perform on possibly THE most watched show of the year...over 43 million people watched the last 30 minutes of that show! If only 1% of those people decided to purchase his CD after watching...when he probably makes about 70% profit off each CD when normally the artist only gets about 1.5 to 2%...you do the math...he sold out all the way to the bank.

jacobpb said:

i don't give him enough credit. you give him too much. the reality is most likely somewhere in between.

last time Prince went all out to spread a spiritual message he was upset he didn't sell enough tickets
or so they say

vainandy said:

I've watched the Stevie Wonder AI show. A whole show with Stevie songs performed by the contestants and Stevie performing at the end. Not only that - he also taught the contestants how to sing his songs and gave them lessons before the show. So, it's official now, Stevie completely sold out. He's done. Very strange that no one in the "Non-Prince" forum started a thread about it when the show was aired...

Aerogram said:

Personally, I don't associate "sell out" with the size of the commercialism of a project, but whether the "sell out" moment contradicts a clear previous artistic statement.

Is Madonna a "sell out" for doing a ROKR advertisment? No, because she never stated that that doing such a thing was against her beliefs.

Is Prince a sell out for doing AI? Debatable.

He has spend the last 13 years mouthing off about bad record deals, particularly for the young and foolish, yet he appears on a programme that is based around the winner being controlled by a corporate marketing machine.

Prince has spent the last 6 years promoting "real music by real musicians", as a direct dig at manufactured pop, then decides to promote his album using the very vehicle that churns out that pop.

Was he making a point, or shamelessly marketing himself at the expense of his musical beliefs?

One thing I would say, if he was making a point, wouldn't he have a guitar strapped to his belly and a band behind him, so they could show everyone what can be acheived, rather than turn out a tired Morris Day display?

SquirrelMeat said:

According to your definition, the "sell out" has begun long ago. Contradiction to artistic statements? He made deals with EMI and Arista to distribute his records ("Emancipation" and "Rave") even back in the 90's, right after the fight with Warners. He talked about not playing some hits on the ONA tour in 2002/2003 ("this is not the Purple Rain show"), just to kick off the "Musicology" tour in 2004. He was talking about real musicians in 2004 all over, just to perform with Miss Plastic R'n'B herself at the Grammies. He stated he wanted to release much more music as a reason for his fight with Warners in the 90's, but he didn't release anything except for some loose download songs between spring 2004 and spring 2006. I understand where you're coming from, but according to your standpoint, those 4 minutes on AI just were a little poop in the Prince sell-out story. So why the complaints now?

EmancipationLover said:

Good points.

But don't get me wrong, its not my personal standpoint, but simply breaking down what has happened. If you look at my posts of the last day or two, I haven't got a problem with P doing AI. I think P has been a bull shitter all his career. I think the worst part of it was the actual performance. Very average indeed.

But I can see other peoples view that this latest move is a big sell out. I fact, I'd go as far as saying they are right, in their opinion.

I object more to the some of the posts that shoot down those opinions.

I think the biggest cock up of the whole AI thing is that he didn't use it to promote Fury. Not only the latest single, but a track that smells of musicianship in comparison to Lolita.



.
[Edited 5/26/06 3:21am]

to "sell out". (1)definition:
Slang To betray one's cause or colleagues

tell me who did Prince "sell out to?"....
personal life opinions and directions change for everyone.(no exceptions). So when did Prince become the exception of this rule?

I can't find the quote, but someone upthread mentioned Madonna. Let me just point-out a few little contradictions concerning her.

1. She says she can't stand television because there is nothing worth watching. Well, that's quite interesting since she has made a career as a music-VIDEO artist and used MTV as a promotion tool.

2. She edited her American Life video because she didn't want to be Dixie-Chicked(her words), but now since the politcal climate has changed, she is re-releasing the video in its original format. I read that on another thread.

3. She is constantly "re-inventing" herself it would appear to remain relevant. Who and/or what is Madonna anyway?

4. She uses shock value(in that way she has remained the same)to promote her music. Gimmicks Galore being passed-off as art. She pretends to start trends when the reality is that she follows them. Madonna is the queen of selling out because it doesn't appear that anything is at the core of her image. It's just about remaining relevant for relevancy's sake. Well, maybe that is her essence.

5. She charges an arm and a leg for her tickets, and her faithful American fans don't even hesitate to pay the price. However, when Madonna performed in Great Britain during the Re-Invention tour, she said that even the most untelligent Brit was brighter the any American. Does that statement apply to American her fans who have supported her over the years? They try so hard to "get" what she does. Does that statement apply to her?

So don't even bring up, Madonna. Hey, Prince may have performed on A.I., but at least he was Prince. At least with Prince, there is something recognizable.
Sure, performing on that show seems contradictory, but then again, maybe he was trying to prove something. I don't know the guy. But I think that he would care about selling-out according to his standards not ours. Maybe there is something that he knows about A.I. that we don't. Just as an observation, it appears that people like Kelly Clarkson aren't held-back by their recording contracts. Maybe the contracts that A.I. offers are fair as far as Prince is concerned considering what the winners get in return. Winners or losers, these kids leave that show with a built-in fanbase. They have the opportunity to build a career, and it would appear that they work very hard on that show to have that opportunity. They put themselves out there for abuse and then again some constructive criticism, but if they can hang-on, well they might have a shot.

And once again, maybe to someone like Prince, it's all about the music. I must admit that I was pretty impressed with the American Idol contestants. I was VERY impressed with Clay Aiken's voice even though his look shocked me. The dude is weird-looking,but he can sing. No the kids aren't Prince, but very few people are. No these kids aren't Stevie Wonder, but very few people are. However, I think that many of these young people are very versatile VOCALISTS, and to me that's an "artform" in and of itself. They know how to interpret a song or are well on their way to learning. I think that they are worthy of an appearance by Prince and Stevie Wonder even though most if not all of them will ever be in the same league as Prince or Stevie Wonder.

So in Prince's mind, maybe he isn't selling-out, or he just doesn't look at it that way. But whatever the case, I have a strong feeling that he doesn't feel the need to justify himself to some of his disgruntled fans and critics. He's not going to explain his choice--or maybe he will one day. Who knows? It's Prince after all.
[Edited 5/26/06 4:59am]

tamaranow said:

You are picking on one definition. There is more than one definition.

For those that think he sold out, I'm guessing they think he sold out his own self belief, for commercial gain.

It could be argued that Prince "betrayed one's cause" by condoning a show that wraps young artists in large corporate contracts. Something Prince has spoken against many times.

Another definition of sell out is "To give up or surrender in exchange for a price or reward". Could this be more in line with some peoples opinions? Did prince exchange services for the reward of promotion?

If so, then he matches a dictionary definition of a "sell out"

Of course he is entitled to change his opinion. Do you think he has? Do you think he now believes that the long corporate contract is a good thing?

SquirrelMeat said:

gosh.... does it really matter?
at the end of the day....Prince is no less a diamond than u or i....we all have flaws....
i shutter to think how this man must feel when he visits here to read all the negative opinions....
it's gotta take courage....
in conclusion...what's done is done....
save ur opinions for what really matters...
"stop those who make war in the name of
death making greed".

EmancipationLover said:

Maybe that's because Stevie and Prince, are not selling out. It would be different if Stevie had not have shown up and just gave his permission to them to use his songs. Him showing up and giving them tips on who should sing what song sends the message right away, " I am not going to let you butcher my songs, I am going to make sure that the songs that I help you pick is the right one for your voice". Here is my question, since when is helping the people that come after you, selling out? To me selling out would be the opposite, not helping those who came after you. Also, if it is done their way, then this is by no means "selling out". It is funny how the fans of artist think.Some believe that once an artist reaches a certain level, they are not supposed to do the things that they might have done when they were trying to make it. So, going with that logic, Prince was not supposed to do "American Bandstand". AB shown some what could be considered at that time "unknown" artist. I remember when John Cougar Mellencamp, first appeared, nobody new who he was. But, for weeks after, people were talking about this kid. Now, 25 years later, people know who he is. You all need to give that "sellout" BS, a break.

Look it's pretty simple. The performance was really smart and stylish and I enjoyed watching it (though did anyone else notice that Simon Cowell was the only one of the judges that didn't move or applaud him during the performance, at least what I could see).

But, having said that, he has completely contradicted himself by appearing on a show that ties the artists that appear on it to some of the most restrictive contracts in the industry. While I can see some of the arguments for it, at the end of the day Prince wasn't just criticising his issues with the business, but championing the cause of all artists who get tied to restrictive contracts. So appearing on this show would indicate an approval for it and everything it stands for otherwise why appear? So whilst he personally has gained from appearing, by album sales and publicity, what has he actually done for other artists in the industry with his appearance?

As others have said on here, Prince is just one big contradiction.
[Edited 5/26/06 5:25am]

Isel said:

Somehow I doubt that Prince got all chummy with the show's contestants. I doubt he gives a rat's ass about whether or not they end up with a career.

shorttrini said:

Look at my other posts. I don't think either Prince or Stevie "sold out". I just question the standpoint of those who complain about Prince's AI appearence (Prince 5 min on AI - sell-out, Stevie 2 hours on AI - no one gives a shit). To say "he's done" about Stevie (obviously) is sarcastic and ironic.

tamaranow said:

Quoting a bible verse that says "flee idolatry" then performing later the same day on a television show dedicated to crowning a new "idol" could fall under that category.

He may not have sold out commercially - let's say for the sake of argument it was a canny business move - but it could be easily argued that he sold out spiritually.

Anx said:

Or if not sold put, than is at least a hypocrite sometimes.

I asked this in another locked thread.....

Now that Prince has done American Idol doesn't Simon Cowell and AI own his performance from the show? Can't they use it on a CD or DVD and profit from it? If they wanted could they make a Willam Hung/Prince montage or use them in the same clip? Does this make Simon Cowell the most powerful man in the music industry?
[Edited 5/26/06 7:01am]

minneapolisgenius said:

"hypocrite" is putting it mildly, i think. that's the fastest turn-around for a contradiction i think prince has ever pulled. it makes me really wonder if it was his way of asking fans to read between the lines, because i don't think the choice to go on AI was his to make.