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PrintableIn the early 90's, during the "Diamond and Pearls" time, sometimes Tommy Elm Barbarelli would. Prince changed Tommy's Name from Elm to Barbarelli. Yet Tommy would chart for Prince. Cause Prince got it like that. He knows people that are like doing things for Him. | |
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its the music that matters. films are important too. | |
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panther514 said: vman4639 said: The interview says "no, I do not read musice" - that is much different than "I can't read music". He does not need to, but certainly can. I have seem him pre-concert re-write pieces for his band. Also, how many tracks has he "written" for other people? Bangles, Kenny Rodgers, Sinead, others - what does he "write": "well, it sounds like wang, wang, giga clang - just another manic Monday"? Yes - he can read and write music. However, when building a concert he plays by ear. I do not and I cannot read music are one in the same. I'm not sure what you were looking at when you saw him writing something down..but he wasn't charting music...he does not read..not by choice but because he has never felt the need to learn..as far as the music used by other artists...he gave the bangles a recording of the song and showed the phrasing of the lyrics by singing it..there were no charts. He was working with the bald trombone player (drawing a blank on name) - plus, what does "written, arranged, and composed by Prince" mean? Or the quote, "I dream about music, and right it down when I wake up." I'm not arguing that he doesn't - but even I was ABLE to read / write music when I was 12 years old. | |
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Oh - and I have seen a ton of quotes where he said he has written - or wrote... Example:
"The first step I have taken towards the ultimate goal of emancipation from the chains that bind me to Warner Brothers was to change my name from Prince to . Prince is the name that my Mother gave me at birth. Warner Bros. took the name, trademarked it, and used it as the main marketing tool to promote all of the music that I >>WROTE<<. The company owns the name Prince and all related music marketed under Prince. I became merely a pawn used to produce more money for Warner Bros...." He didn't say "record". "I tried to tell them that I didn't want to sing, but I'd gladly write a song instead..." | |
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Prince can read music.
Is he fluent, prob not. But he can read music. | |
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vman4639 said: Oh - and I have seen a ton of quotes where he said he has written - or wrote... Example:
"The first step I have taken towards the ultimate goal of emancipation from the chains that bind me to Warner Brothers was to change my name from Prince to . Prince is the name that my Mother gave me at birth. Warner Bros. took the name, trademarked it, and used it as the main marketing tool to promote all of the music that I >>WROTE<<. The company owns the name Prince and all related music marketed under Prince. I became merely a pawn used to produce more money for Warner Bros...." He didn't say "record". "I tried to tell them that I didn't want to sing, but I'd gladly write a song instead..." V...you can take credit for "writing" music without actually WRITING it.."writing" is the same as creating or even arranging music...it does not always mean that you sit down and put a song to paper...Stevie and Ray Charles have never sat down and charted music..but they get all the credit for "Writing" a song...just like Prince..they had someone put their arrangement to paper.As I stated before, there is now software that will chart everything for you..and i'm sure Prince or someone that works for him uses it. On several occasions, Prince has stated that he does not read....A very well respected music teacher told me once.."there is no such thing as a musician who reads a little...either you read, or you don't". "I wasn't invited to shake hands with Hitler, but I wasn't invited to the White House to shake hands with the President, either" ~ Jesse Owens | |
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Shhh747 said: In an interview, Prince said he couldn't read music.
Wow, I don´t know that. I thought he could. "When Michael Jackson is just singing and dancing, you just think this is an astonishing talent. And he has had this astounding talent all his life, but we want him to be floored as well. We really don´t like the idea that he could have it all." | |
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He can.
It is hard for me to believe that on his long musical journey starting in maybe the late sixties, or at least the early seventies up until now, he has never managed to stumble upon a piece of sheetmusic and learned how to read it. | |
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CaptainJack said: He can.
It is hard for me to believe that on his long musical journey starting in maybe the late sixties, or at least the early seventies up until now, he has never managed to stumble upon a piece of sheetmusic and learned how to read it. You would be amazed at the number of musical geniuses that cannot. Their ear is what makes them different. "I wasn't invited to shake hands with Hitler, but I wasn't invited to the White House to shake hands with the President, either" ~ Jesse Owens | |
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panther514 said: CaptainJack said: He can.
It is hard for me to believe that on his long musical journey starting in maybe the late sixties, or at least the early seventies up until now, he has never managed to stumble upon a piece of sheetmusic and learned how to read it. You would be amazed at the number of musical geniuses that cannot. Their ear is what makes them different. it seems as if you didn't get my point | |
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Alasseon said: Then an old bluesman said to me--- Stevie Wonder can't read music. That's because he's blind. DUH! He can't read normal staff and bars. 
The way I hear it, Stevie had the first prototype to generate charts in Braile from playing on his keyboards. The technology removes the interface beween readers and non-readers to enable to preparation of transcriptions from improvisations. test | |
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CaptainJack said: Graycap23 said: With out question. are any of you musicians?    ,  am a musician raised N the tradition that if U can't play more than 1 instrument well~U R not a True musician (that came from my fathers side of the family ya'll so dont scream on B)  | |
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langebleu said: EmancipationLover said: As a general statement, this is completely untrue. There might be some truth in it when it comes to Jazz where the music is based on improvisation and soloing a lot - for sure, a good ear is the key to become brilliant in that (though the ability to read doesn't exclude that). In classical music, you're completely lost without the ability to read/write music. And this is what bothers me: those who can read also can learn to improvise and completely play by ear. Andre Previn is a good example: film scorer (4 oscars), classical conductor, composer and an excellent jazz pianist. But those who can't read might be brilliant in what they do (Prince and others), but they will never be able to play certain music simply because that music requires the ability to read. You can't play the well-tempered clavier by ear alone without learning it from a sheet, unless you're Mr. Johann Sebastian Bach himself. Not being able to read limits you to do certain things. Why do you think does the control freak Prince hire Clare Fisher for his orchestrations? Being able to read = not creative? Franz Schubert only got 31 years old, but he composed around 1000 individual pieces of music... And for the Beatles, at least McCartney must be able to read/write as he composed an oratory some years ago. For the most part I agree with this. Just a couple of points: 1. I'm not that clear on how much Paul McCartney can read and write music: his Liverpool Oratorio was a collaboration with conductor and composer, Carl Davis, who was at least responsible for the orchestration of the piece - just as Clare Fisher and his son worked on 'Kamasutra' for  . It wouldn't surprise me to learn that McCartney simply played / recorded the parts that he wrote rather than scored them.
2. Your statement that you're completely lost in classical music without the ability to read and write also has exceptions. It's rare in my experience, but not unheard of, for people to be able to hear classical music and then play it back by ear, rather than have to rely on the ability to read a score. I had a friend of many years that was able to listen to pieces by the likes of Scarlatti and Chopin, and play them back at the piano. He had perfect pitch and whilst he knew what each note was on the piano (someone had once told him where C was so he worked out the rest from there), he had never had a formal piano lesson in his life, and he had simply sat at the piano as a young child and almost instinctively he felt he knew how to play - he just had to practise. I asked him once if he could play an F7b5 chord and he genuinely didn't know what that meant. He had no knowledge (as far as he was aware) of how many sharps or flats in each key, but he could play accurately different scales starting from any note. He was also unable to look at a basic triad on a stave and work out what it was on the keyboard unless the position of each note on the stave was explained to him. . [Edited 4/22/06 5:05am] Interesting posts. Paul McCartney said around that time that Carl tried to get him to learn to read but he said "too late for that." I find it interesting how many non-musicians insist that The Beatles/Prince must read music just because they were great, meanwhile all these musicians (like me) are telling them it's not necessary. Not reading music is not the same as not knowing music. Prince knows chord names, that way he can communicate with his band. But reading music just isn't as important since the advent of recording. Writing music down was a way to record it (of course it's also a way to compose it, but that kind of music's generally more melodic & mathematic than Prince's music). I wonder if Beethoven would learn to read music if he was born today. On another note, classical music used to be structured more like jazz. There was a time when keyboard pieces had something similar to lead sheets, and the keyboardist would improvise fills based on the chords & melody. I suppose that as classical music got more complex that musicians got more specialized, and the gulf between reading & improvising grew greater. Still, jazz musicians often read very well--at least melodic lines--and they can improvise. [Edited 4/24/06 16:54pm] My Legacy
http://prince.org/msg/8/192731 | |
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CaptainJack said: panther514 said: You would be amazed at the number of musical geniuses that cannot. Their ear is what makes them different. it seems as if you didn't get my point Your point was that you feel because Prince is so advanced musically that he MUST know how to read a sheet of music.....and that is completely wrong...my point is that there are scores of other musicians..PRN,McCartney and countless others that have the talent musically without being able to read a chart...and they have no problem admitting it....I do not put myself on the level of those guys but I have played bass for over 20 years and can play anything I hear note for note after hearing it once...but I could not read a chart if you put it in front of me...and it doesn't hurt me at all! Creatively, I'm not bound by anything so I can improv and solo my A#$ off..I know chord structure, theory and scales...but my strength is groovin'and because I can throw anything in the mix when I'm playing as far as playing crazy pocket and solos, my phone rings constantly for gigs and studio work. "I wasn't invited to shake hands with Hitler, but I wasn't invited to the White House to shake hands with the President, either" ~ Jesse Owens | |
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PFunkjazz said: Alasseon said: Then an old bluesman said to me--- Stevie Wonder can't read music. That's because he's blind. DUH! He can't read normal staff and bars.
The way I hear it, Stevie had the first prototype to generate charts in Braile from playing on his keyboards. The technology removes the interface beween readers and non-readers to enable to preparation of transcriptions from improvisations. LOL. That was the point. Good job in reiterating the obvious... But also, good call on the clarification about how a blind musician could transcribe his work.  
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NDRU said: langebleu said: For the most part I agree with this. Just a couple of points: 1. I'm not that clear on how much Paul McCartney can read and write music: his Liverpool Oratorio was a collaboration with conductor and composer, Carl Davis, who was at least responsible for the orchestration of the piece - just as Clare Fisher and his son worked on 'Kamasutra' for . It wouldn't surprise me to learn that McCartney simply played / recorded the parts that he wrote rather than scored them.
2. Your statement that you're completely lost in classical music without the ability to read and write also has exceptions. It's rare in my experience, but not unheard of, for people to be able to hear classical music and then play it back by ear, rather than have to rely on the ability to read a score. I had a friend of many years that was able to listen to pieces by the likes of Scarlatti and Chopin, and play them back at the piano. He had perfect pitch and whilst he knew what each note was on the piano (someone had once told him where C was so he worked out the rest from there), he had never had a formal piano lesson in his life, and he had simply sat at the piano as a young child and almost instinctively he felt he knew how to play - he just had to practise. I asked him once if he could play an F7b5 chord and he genuinely didn't know what that meant. He had no knowledge (as far as he was aware) of how many sharps or flats in each key, but he could play accurately different scales starting from any note. He was also unable to look at a basic triad on a stave and work out what it was on the keyboard unless the position of each note on the stave was explained to him. . [Edited 4/22/06 5:05am] Interesting posts. Paul McCartney said around that time that Carl tried to get him to learn to read but he said "too late for that." I find it interesting how many non-musicians insist that The Beatles/Prince must read music just because they were great, meanwhile all these musicians (like me) are telling them it's not necessary. Not reading music is not the same as not knowing music. Prince knows chord names, that way he can communicate with his band. But reading music just isn't as important since the advent of recording. Writing music down was a way to record it (of course it's also a way to compose it, but that kind of music's generally more melodic & mathematic than Prince's music). I wonder if Beethoven would learn to read music if he was born today. On another note, classical music used to be structured more like jazz. There was a time when keyboard pieces had something similar to lead sheets, and the keyboardist would improvise fills based on the chords & melody. I suppose that as classical music got more complex that musicians got more specialized, and the gulf between reading & improvising grew greater. Still, jazz musicians often read very well--at least melodic lines--and they can improvise. [Edited 4/24/06 16:54pm] On the points of the role of sheet music back in the day: I think you are right that recording techniques (or their absence in former times) play a role, but that's not all. There are two different aspects imo: First, the orchestra. You may be able to tell a band with 5 or 6 people what to play when without using charts. But if you have an orchestra with 30, 40 or even more people plus eventually a choir (Mahler's 8th Symphony was premiered by over 1000 musicians!), you end up in a complete mess if you don't use charts and just tell everyone to "play by ear". The second aspect is the complexity of the music: I don't want to take away anything from the music of Prince or McCartney, but their music is, just as most of pop music, rather easily structured (which doesn't mean it is bad). A drum and a bass playing a more or less repetitive rhythm section pattern, a keyboard or guitar playing some licks, then the vocals, maybe a horn section with some licks and some instruments soloing at certain points (often guitar or keys), all clocking in (usually) at 3-5 minutes for a song. Having the movement of a symphony with up to 30 minutes or even a piano solo piece by Bach (a fugue) is a different story because the structures often are much more complex. Saying this, I think Beethoven still would use sheet music today. Most of contemporary classical composers (like Stockhausen, for example) do, but their charts often look quite different from what we are used to, and sometimes they use prerecorded elements if they want to achieve something you only can do in a studio or which is difficult to write down and have it played live. What I do not get, to be honest, is why highly talented people like Prince never attempted to learn reading music, even if they don't desperately need it. It really isn't that difficult. For example, Prince has Greg Boyer writing down the horn arrangements for him, he could easily do it himself, and being the control fanatic he is, I don't know why he never attempted it. It doesn't make him lose any other abilities. | |
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Fucking hell. Some people are really getting their knickers in a twist over this one. Its been said, straight from the horses mouth, in video, that he DOESN’T READ MUSIC! I think that is pretty much a closed case. But no, some people are acting like their whole world is crumbling and fail to accept this little fact.
He cant. Get over it… |
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Rebeljuice said: Fucking hell. Some people are really getting their knickers in a twist over this one. Its been said, straight from the horses mouth, in video, that he DOESN’T READ MUSIC! I think that is pretty much a closed case. But no, some people are acting like their whole world is crumbling and fail to accept this little fact.
He cant. Get over it… Thank you! It's amazing the reaction to that fact...obviously, it's more important to these people than it is to Prince...he had no problem admitting it. "I wasn't invited to shake hands with Hitler, but I wasn't invited to the White House to shake hands with the President, either" ~ Jesse Owens | |
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EmancipationLover said: NDRU said: Interesting posts. Paul McCartney said around that time that Carl tried to get him to learn to read but he said "too late for that." I find it interesting how many non-musicians insist that The Beatles/Prince must read music just because they were great, meanwhile all these musicians (like me) are telling them it's not necessary. Not reading music is not the same as not knowing music. Prince knows chord names, that way he can communicate with his band. But reading music just isn't as important since the advent of recording. Writing music down was a way to record it (of course it's also a way to compose it, but that kind of music's generally more melodic & mathematic than Prince's music). I wonder if Beethoven would learn to read music if he was born today. On another note, classical music used to be structured more like jazz. There was a time when keyboard pieces had something similar to lead sheets, and the keyboardist would improvise fills based on the chords & melody. I suppose that as classical music got more complex that musicians got more specialized, and the gulf between reading & improvising grew greater. Still, jazz musicians often read very well--at least melodic lines--and they can improvise. [Edited 4/24/06 16:54pm] On the points of the role of sheet music back in the day: I think you are right that recording techniques (or their absence in former times) play a role, but that's not all. There are two different aspects imo: First, the orchestra. You may be able to tell a band with 5 or 6 people what to play when without using charts. But if you have an orchestra with 30, 40 or even more people plus eventually a choir (Mahler's 8th Symphony was premiered by over 1000 musicians!), you end up in a complete mess if you don't use charts and just tell everyone to "play by ear". The second aspect is the complexity of the music: I don't want to take away anything from the music of Prince or McCartney, but their music is, just as most of pop music, rather easily structured (which doesn't mean it is bad). A drum and a bass playing a more or less repetitive rhythm section pattern, a keyboard or guitar playing some licks, then the vocals, maybe a horn section with some licks and some instruments soloing at certain points (often guitar or keys), all clocking in (usually) at 3-5 minutes for a song. Having the movement of a symphony with up to 30 minutes or even a piano solo piece by Bach (a fugue) is a different story because the structures often are much more complex. Saying this, I think Beethoven still would use sheet music today. Most of contemporary classical composers (like Stockhausen, for example) do, but their charts often look quite different from what we are used to, and sometimes they use prerecorded elements if they want to achieve something you only can do in a studio or which is difficult to write down and have it played live. What I do not get, to be honest, is why highly talented people like Prince never attempted to learn reading music, even if they don't desperately need it. It really isn't that difficult. For example, Prince has Greg Boyer writing down the horn arrangements for him, he could easily do it himself, and being the control fanatic he is, I don't know why he never attempted it. It doesn't make him lose any other abilities. I totally agree. Prince's music is different from Beethoven's in structure, and it indicates to me further evidence he doesn't read music--it's riff based, not harmonically based like music written & created on a staff tends to be. It's just a guess, but I wouldn't be surprised if learning to read music becomes intimidating to even the greats like Paul McCartney & Prince. It seems hard when you don't do it, like computers are to some people. I think even great artists are very aware of what they lack and are intimidated by others' talent--like when Miles played the piano for Prince, and Prince was thinking "He's not supposed to be able to play the piano." Also, as self assured as they are, I think sometimes artists are worried about fixing what isn't broken. They worry about over-learning, thinking (as some here suggest) that if they read, they won't be as creative, they'll be "rule-bound" etc. My Legacy
http://prince.org/msg/8/192731 | |
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Rebeljuice said: Fucking hell. Some people are really getting their knickers in a twist over this one. Its been said, straight from the horses mouth, in video, that he DOESN’T READ MUSIC! I think that is pretty much a closed case. But no, some people are acting like their whole world is crumbling and fail to accept this little fact.
He cant. Get over it… Prince is a known liar. He has said alot of things on videotape. | |
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Does Stevie Wonder drive? All you others say Hell Yea!!  | |
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