The thing about TRC that bothers me with every listen, was Prince really expressing anti-semitic sentiments on "Muse 2 The Pharoah" and "Family Name", or is he just misunderstood? I really hope it is the latter, but unfortunately I still makes me feel unsettled hearing his lyrics on these songs.

Read the below. What do the rest of you think? I imagine this has all be analysed in depth in the past, right?

"Some of the lyrics were interpreted as being anti-Semite. In “Muse 2 The Pharoah,” Prince says that “Holocaust aside, many lived and died,” as if it is questionable whether the Holocaust should be considered. He asks the rhetorical question whether it is better to be dead or sold into slavery. “Family Name” also contains what seems like an anti-Jewish sentiment. Three times Prince has a person ask an African-American, “What you mad about?” In response, the lyrics note that the person asking the question still has his family name, unlike the African slaves forcibly renamed. The family names of each of the people in question are “Rosenbloom,” “Pearlman” and “Goldstruck.” The first two are common Jewish names. The third is essentially a corruption of such Jewish names as Goldstein or Goldberg, but all the more regrettably, the name Prince uses plays off the repugnant stereotype of the wealthy, avaricious Jew"


[WARNING: Keep the topic on the intent of the lyrics and off any deep religious debate - or it may end up in the Politics and Religion Forum folks - luv4u]

.. Interesting

I'm not exactly sure if he is an anti-semite, but TRC definitely contains the seeds of anti-semitic ideas (even if they're not Prince's personal beliefs).

I think he was more trying to bring comparisons to the plight of African-Americans (slavery, poverty, etc.) and he's saying how America favors one over the other.

They're meant to spark conversation and raise awareness. It's totally up to the listener to decide what to believe.

Public Enemy (the rap group) also seem to hold similar views (see below) although their record "Swindler's Lust" was more blatant than Prince. It actually put me off them for good.

I wonder if it is a coincidence that Prince and Chuck D (from Public Enemy) have collaborated - on Prince's Rave LP.

"Also, Professor Griff, a member of the group, made what many perceived to be anti-Semitic remarks, though he claimed that he did not condemn all Jews, just Zionists. He was ejected from the band as a result of these remarks, and the group was listed in an FBI report to Congress entitled "Rap Music and Its Effects on National Security". For this and for their single "Swindler's Lust" the group was condemned by the Anti-Defamation League, though the band and many of their fans defended themselves, saying that they were not trying to diminish the events of the Holocaust, rather draw a comparison between the events of the Holocaust and slavery." - Wikipedia

Oh dear, no, Prince wasn't being anti-semitic. Not as far as I see it anyway. In my opinion he was making the point that being sold into slavery is sometimes a fate worse than death. Would you rather be dead, or be sold? I see that as a fair point. We're talking slavery here people, that's not just a word, it's a whole bunch of shit. And so... if Slavery and Death are comparable on the list of 'shitty things that can happen to a human being' list (lawd that's a long list..) then why do we hear so much more* about the holocaust - undeniably a tragedy - than we do about the horrors and lasting effects of slavery on our society?

It seems - in the media in particular - that slavery is mainly known as a horrific, shocking period in history that happened-a-long-time-ago-and-we've-all-moved-past-it-now-and-we're-all-equal-and-isn't-it-lovely-dovey, yet the Holocaust is treated almost like an ongoing problem.

I'm gonna shut up now because this has a potential to become one of 'those' threads...

*this is based purely on my own day-to-day personal experience
[Edited 4/7/06 5:02am]
[Edited 4/7/06 5:03am]

Didnt we already have this discussion.

I think it's an observational comparison, not necessarily an anti-Jewish statement.

The phrase 'anti-semitic' is used far too freely.

DaveDare79 said:

Follow me on this. So what if it was? I hear anti Black messages all day, everyday.

newpowergeneration said:

Mmm. No disrespect intended, but give this book a read, I guarantee it will help you understand why this was one of the darkest moments in 20th century history, and why people continue to go on about it. One of the hardest books I've ever read:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/...oding=UTF8

newpowergeneration said:

a lot of that i think is because of the time difference. the holocaust was a lot more recent, and affected a wider swath of minorities.

i do find TRC to be a bit anti-semitic, one of the many reasons i cant stand the album

Graycap23 said:

Um, because it's possibly coming from Prince?

If it was just off some dude in the street, it would be less bothersome.

But from Prince - whose music I love, and has always preaced love and peace and acceptance?

That's why.

DaveDare79 said:

I do NOT want to get into a big discussion on this because we all know here it can go. Believe it or not, you can mention "Jews" and it NOT be anti-semitic. There was NOTHING anti-Semitic about TRC. NOTHING.

cborgman said:

I think also the sheer brutality and ruthlessly efficient manner the Nazis carried it out is a major factor. Women, children, disabled people, elderly people, gassed to death, bodies put in ovens - human fat turned into soap, prisoners forced to dig mass graves, then line up and be shot one by one, to fall into the grave they just dug, sick medical experiments on children etc etc.

Having visited Dachau concentration camp last year, it totally changes your perspective on all of it. Awful, awful, stuff.

Family Name is a brilliant piece of work, and yes, there is no doubt Prince is using the issue of slavery in comparison to socities views and obsession with the plight of the Jews. Why does that make it anti-semetic, in simple it doesn't. He is discussing the diaspora - the scattering, dilution of people from ethnic background.

That is totally legitimate territory for someone with Prince's background to comment upon, without being considered anti-semetic. He is addressing a very real issue that is somehow ignored by the mass-American population, in favour of the atrocities inflicted on another diaspora, under the religion of Judaism.

Totally acceptable. It is a very clever use of lyric, content and politics, and draws a really useful comparison of racial, as well as religious pre-conception and prejudice. Now, you don't hear Britney Spears delivering that kind of shit or many other artists today.

The whole of TRC is scattered with references to diaspora and the religious overarching new order, the narration is telling just that story. So many people gt hung up on the narration but is directly relevant to the music and the sentiment within what is a superb concept album. I love the controversey caused by this work, exactly what Prince wanted to do - and in his own way pushing the boundaries, when people started to consider him irrelevant - this will one day be studied as a materpiece of a modern musical genius at a defining but not popularist, peak!

I am not religious, and haven't a racist bone in my body - so hearing such an album allowed me to consider issues from a strong background of confidence in my own beliefs with no prejudice, TRC is a very satisfying experience for me.

His references to middleeastern intolerance is the only area I would like to have seen expanded! He did so in the stage backdrop on the ONA tour when he played Muse 2 the Pharoah - it was awesome, and really spellbinding to watch and experience. TRC and ONA - what a live experience, the best!

Chasing said:

Excellent post. You saved me the trouble. Thanks

skywalker said:

100% agreed.

Chasing said:

Ohh did I say that this was a GREAT Post? let me say it again.
G R E A T P O S T !

Graycap23 said:

But given the context of the song, why did he have to mention "Jewish" names only ? He could have easily said "Russo" or "Gonzalez" or "Wang" and the message would have been the same. It seemed a bit like he was harping on the Jews a bit here. It's like if someone was talking about crime in general, and only named Black criminals. While I wouldn't necessarily call it Anti-Semitic, I would say it was a bit insensitive and could have been expressed much better, Prince is a brilliant musician, but that doesn't make him a sociologically great thinker.

jjhunsecker said:

Because when he was "writing" the song, that's what fit. That simple.

There weren't just Jews killed in the Holocaust. There were millions of others. Many of these were JW's(Prince's people). Do I believe all the Jews they claim were murdered actually were? Yes. Absolutely. And the Holocaust should not be forgotten. I don't know what he meant and I haven't heard the songs but those remarks dont seem to be anti-semitic. Especially since Jews were sold into slavery first.

And about Rosenbloom and Perlman being Hebrew names...they're not. They're Germanic. The Jews were a group displaced and without a home too. Many do not have their names either so I'm not sure what he meant or the context it was used in the song. It might have been a parallel. If it was a slight that wouldn't be cool, though.

Graycap23 said:

Michael Jackson went through a similar controversy over his "They Don't Care About Us" song off the History LP, due to lyrics:

Beat me
Hate me
You can never
Break me
Will me
Thrill me
You can never
Kill me
Jew me
Sue me
Everybody
Do me
Kick me
Kike me
Don't you
Black or white me

In the Jewish community it is considered anti-semetic to belittle or make light of the Holocaust, which Prince definitely does on that album. As horrible as the horrors of slavery were they are not comparable to what went on in the Holocaust. So, while not offensive to most of you the lyric “Holocaust aside, many lived and died” is very offensive to a jewish person. And I notice that you are all conveniently disregarding the “Goldstruck” part of Family Name, where Prince is obviously dropping some jewish stereotypical tripe. It's not about mentioning jews, which can be done without being anti-semetic, or comparing the jewish experience to the slave's experience, which can be done intelligently. It's about belittling the Holocaust and resorting to jewish stereotypes that make those parts of the record anti-semetic.

We'll leave the misogynous aspects of the record for another thread!

It's basically a cockfight over who suffered more.

My people were rounded up, branded like cattle, forced into cramped halfway houses, shipped off to camps, killed systematically, bodies thrown in burning piles--a horrific extermination of an entire people.

My people were enslaved, brought to America in slave ships, robbed of our names, our women and children taken from us, whipped, chained, humiliated, degraded generation after generation.

"Family Name" seems to be addressing Jews in particular, advancing the argument that at least they got to keep their names, their sense of identity, even after the horrors of the Holocaust, where the displaced Africans were stripped of all sense of selfhood and had to form a brand new identity.
[Edited 4/7/06 8:00am]

thebige said:

hummmmm 275 million slaves to 6 million jews.....interesting perspective.
200 plus years to a handful of years.

Graycap23 said:

i am curious as to where you got that number from?

Graycap23 said:

But it's not "that simple". The context of the song would not have changed if he said "Mr. Ramirez" or "Mr Yee" or "Mr Truffaut" or something like that, if the whole idea of the song is that African Americans had their names removed. However, mentioning only Jewish (and Jewish sounding) names makes it seem as if he has an issue with that particular group .
(BTW- I don't know if this is relevant, but I'm not Jewish. I'm Black. I still think the song veers too close to Anti-semitism, if it not actually. Blacks lose the moral high gound if we engage in the same mentality we criticize others for )

cborgman said:

Opps. Take off the 2.

Graycap23 said:

Why do we have to compare ? Cant we say BOTH were terrible occurances ??

(Hmmm... which is worse ? getting brutally raped or having my head blown off with a shotgun ??)

jjhunsecker said:

We agree to disagree. Artist write about twhat they write about.