This thread exploded...but went off in totally different tangients.

It's NOT a thread about your critique of PARADE or the sales or airplay of PARADE or the R&B playlists at the time.

vainandy said:

The ghetto? Why the baseless assumption on that?

In the '80s where I live we had 6 record stores in town that I visited regularly - two 'chain' stores in the local Mall, a semi-independent 'pop' store on the West side of town, a mom-n-pop dance/Alt outlet in the center of town, and 2 R&B oriented shops on the south side. None of these were in a 'ghetto' area and all were pretty popular. America is a pretty big place and I doubt Billboard is restricting itself to ghetto shops for it's data.

Regardless, this is the method they use for R&B charts, so if any flaws exist then they have colored all the charts that way, whether you were following 1999 or Parade.

vainandy said:

I think, much like your previous ghetto idea, that the above assumption is totally off the mark. My feelings about Parade are completely irrelevant to the issue and it's chart performance... and I don't believe in an 'overall' dislike for Parade because that's not been my personal experience when hearing comments from others. You can't discount my experience because it conflicts with yours. The bottom line is, however, hearsay doesn't interest me. Parade performed no worse than 1999 or SOTT on the R&B radio and sales charts. If a select group of people had extreme feelings for Parade (either way, like or dislike) it didn't make a difference in the figures that matter. Unless someone has some way of showing a mass swing of feeling against Parade using real world data then what's the point?

If we were talking about rock/pop lovers being turned off or uninterested in Parade then the story would be entirely different because it's obvious to see where Parade and it's singles failed on the Pop chart in comparison to 1999 or SOTT.
[Edited 4/16/06 15:23pm]

Didn't Prince record the Black album partly as a response to people complaining that he was deserting the funk? I remember an interview with Cat in '89 where she said that 'He thought he was trying to prove something to people that he wasn't losing it', implying that that was part of why he stopped it being released. Also I have a book The Best Selling Albums Of The 1980s based on US and UK sales. There are only 2 Prince albums in there, 1999 and Purple Rain. Considering that Prince picked up at least 10 million fans in 83-85 and surely at least some of them must have stuck around afterwards it's not inconceivable that a large chunk of his older audience could have jumped ship afterwards leaving the 2 million or so new loyal converts to pick up the slack which would make the sales figures look like business as usual when actually there were now more pop/rock dollars going in the till than funk ones. Ya dig?

Though obviously it wasn't quite business as usual because, contrary to what some of you have said, Parade and SOTT didn't sell quite as much as 1999. By the way I love Parade. For me Prince doing songs like Do You Lie was the ultimate statement of his freedom. That was him walking it like he talked it. He made a career out of challenging expectations and norms, dressing like a woman, mixing genres, kissing Gayle Chapman, etc. One of the most stifling staightjackets we have placed on us is this straightjacket of COOL. We must be cool at all times. Prince decided to liberate himself of even this, and only someone as genuinely cool as Prince could have done that. Think about it, this is a guy who worked with Sheena Easton. As he put it himself 'I BREAK THE RULES AND DO WHAT I WANNA DO!'. Simple.

Parade was the first album I ever owned. My uncle bought it for me when I was a kid. So im bias. I played that thing to death. I love this album.

whoknows said:

TBA has a public mythology that doesn't match the reality of it's creation. The majority of the songs found on The Black album were recorded for various disparate projects - a bulk of them simply to be used as party music for one of Sheila E's birthday parties, another track from the aborted Camille album, etc... TBA was simply a compilation of left over funk tracks and was never intended as a major "Prince" release (which was why it was to be released without and artist or title attached to it.



I have no disagreement with the idea that new fans replaced old ones over time. It seems quite logical and wouldn't be the first time this happened in his career (the most noticeable previous example being Dirty Mind alienating a large portion of the audience he'd gained with "Prince").

The only thing is that it WAS business as usual specifically with R&B radio/shops. So even if we assume a lot of older R&B fans jumped ship during 85-86 then they were still being replaced by NEW R&B listeners/buyers in the same markets that Billboard was following. Otoh, Parade did noticeably worse on the pop/rock charts.

whoknows said:

That's probably me that you're thinking of but you didn't quite get the whole point of what I was saying. In the US, prior to the release of Purple Rain, the album 1999 itself did not sell measurably worse or better than Parade or SOTT. it sold LESS than 2 million copies... I think somewhere in the ballpark of 1.5 million over the course of about a year+ was what I had heard at one point. It was not until AFTER PR was released (and some of those 9 million PR buyers began exploring older albums) that 1999 shot to 2 and then 3 million sales here in the US. Parade and SOTT sold in the area of 1.3 to 1.7 million after their release. 1999 and SOTT did better on the pop charts but all three performed similarly on R&B.



I agree with that completely.

vainandy said:

I hear ya Vainandy. Personally, although I got into Prince in the 90s, when I first heard Kiss at age 12, I loved that song. It was catchy and funky. And I expected Parade to be the same. But instead, I was disappointed after I heard the entire album. I thought Prince lost his damn mind of did songs like Do U Lie and Under Cherry Moon. I even feel asleep almost everytime I listened to Sometimes Snow In April. I also wondered was this the same artist who did masterpiece and brilliant albums like Purple Rain and Dirty Mind? So I felt the same disappointment as some of the R&B fans who were older when Parade came out. I also agreed with you when you said Prince changed his sound too soon. I also felt that Prince should did a couple more albums like 1999 and Purple Rain then do ATWIAD and Parade later.

"Parade" is P's most sombre album. There's a kitschy carnival quality to the music, like a sad clown. "Under the Cherry Moon," and "Sometimes in Snow in April" are melancholy death songs. There are no love ballads. P's not wooing anybody. It's a Requiem of the Purple One.

Way I see it, he achieved his dream with Purple Rain. He had arrived. Like the ending of "Purple Rain," the Kid 'came.' It's like when you make love--you orgasm, you curl your toes, you make your fuck face and and go limp. "Around the World in a Day" and "Parade" were post-coitus Prince; he had shot his load, and was now just goofing around in bed, cuddling with his fanbase like a lovestruck teen.

I mean, come on, listen to some of the shit on "Parade." "I Wonder U," "Under the Cherry Moon," "Do U Lie," are like gag reels. That's the sort of shit you come up with while horsing around with your mates, not when you're trying to captivate an audience.

I think "Parade" is a fan favorite around here BECAUSE it was so idiosyncratic and rejected by mainstream fans. To continue the metaphor: After you lay someone who's reputed to be hard and impenetrable, you appreciate those private moments of flaccid earnestness. But to those less emotionally invested in Prince music, it was just embarrassing and unworthy.
[Edited 4/18/06 7:32am]

I think that's the key point. I just didn't get why you were challenging vainandy when his comments made perfect sense to me. I think the thing is the group vainandy represents; fans dating back to DM and Controversy; was quite numerically small so Prince could afford to lose them by the mid 80s anyway. This is a time honoured process with all true artists. Bob Dylan alienated a large chunk of his audience the day he plugged in an electric guitar, but it did him no harm 'cos for every fan he lost he picked up two more.

whoknows said:

The thrust of the idea presented by a small but vocal few on the two Parade threads we had running was that no R&B fans were feeling it - period. As I had stated previously, that wasn't my personal experience with the people I talked to and though there's no doubt it did happen among select groups, it was in numbers too small to show up in real world figures.

rudeboynpg said:

How can you be a Prince fan on a Prince website and say Parade is weak?

Firstly "Kiss" is a great Prince song. If you don't like this song then I'm not sure what you are doing saying you're a Prince fan.

"Anotherloverholenyehead", "Mountains", "Girls and Boys"?

Really THEY are not "WEAK" songs.

AGAIN what is REAL funk or REAL rock?
[Edited 4/19/06 17:00pm]

padawan said:

interesting analysis - i agree.

pepper7 said:

"Kiss" is to short on Parade. The extended version is much better. "Anotherloverholenyehead"-dull, "Mountains"-weak, "Girls and Boys"-silly little song. That makes me "not a Prince fan"? Prince himself said "Parade was a disaster. Apart from 'Kiss', there's nothing on it I'm particulary proud of. The temptation is to go right back into the studio and make a killer album, but I think half the problem with Parade was I didn't have enough good material ready."
What is REAL funk? D.M.S.R., Erotic City, Controversy, etc., What is REAL rock? Let's Go Crazy (of course), Bambi, Purple Rain, etc.

rudeboynpg said:

Which drives us right back around to the original topic and whether we believe Prince meant what he said above. I, for one, don't believe for even a second that he truly felt that way about Parade. I can't imagine Prince in the mid '80s releasing anything that he wasn't entirely happy with at the time. There was certainly no need to rush the album out the door and he had plenty of music from that era to toss on there if the need arose.

I think he was just publicly distancing himself from the 'perceived' failures of that period and trying to put the W&L/Revolution days behind him.

Btw, I really can't see how Anotherloverholenyohead could be considered 'dull'... The great piano, the absolutely killer hook of the chorus, the delivery of the 2nd verse, with the call-and-response vocals, is one of his most passionate and inspired recordings, imo.

jtfolden said:

I believe he meant what he said. Sure, he had plenty of killer music in the vault to fall back on. But it seems he wanted Parade to have a different, new (for him) sound. "You've got to try my new funk." Alot of his strong new music he gave to the Family, which clearly points to the Parade material. About rushing the album out, Prince said "I just wanted to get the album out." Remember, Parade is the soundtrack to that crappy movie, Under The Cherry Moon. Prince hated Under The Cherry Moon. He knew he made some serious judgement errors in making that movie. Also the Revolution were breaking up at the time. It seems Prince wanted to just get it out, try to have a fun tour, and put it behind him and move on with Crystal Ball, which became Sign O' The Times,
which is an awesome movie.

About "Anotherlover", I don't hate the song, it just doesn't do anything for me. If he sang it with raw emotion, meaning and screamed on it. If the song built up emotionally, with guitars or something. As it is, it doesn't make me feel anything.
[Edited 4/19/06 22:03pm]

rudeboynpg said:

I didn't mean old, vault music. I meant there was plenty of new interesting music that didn't make the album - music that would later end up in the mix of future projects and on b-sides. Although, ironically, I seem to recall hearing that "New Position" was a re-recording of a track from 1982.



I think your timeline is a bit off. There was no need to rush the album out. Sure it was a tie in to the movie BUT it, also, came out months before UTCM did and pretty much was marketed independently of it. The first single from Parade was released in February where as the movie didn't hit theaters until July. He had plenty of time to add/remove tracks if he felt the need.

Secondly, the Revolution were NOT breaking up at the time. IIRC, recording sessions for Parade ended in late '85. Prince and W&L would begin and, essentially, finish an entirely new album (Dream Factory) during the first half of 86, before things went to hell. Considering the contents of Dream Factory, it seems like Prince was fairly happy with the direction that his sound was taking at the time.

It wasn't until after this whole period (with the failure of UTCM, the firing of the Revolution, and Dream Factory being shelved) that Prince changed his tune (literally and figuratively). I think he was just trying to purge and distance himself from it all when he started making comments like that.
[Edited 4/20/06 13:44pm]

Its quite refreshing to see a thread on here with so many people trashing one of Prince's pre-1988 records instead of something made after Lovesexy for a change . I don't agree with those trashing Parade though , its truly a charming record , though I think it is probably the first record he made where all the songs arent obvious stand-alone tracks or dare I say it , singles .Its an album that has to be appreciated as a whole , if you take certain tracks out and listen to them individually they might seem weak but everything on the album works as a cohesive unit wonderfully , its a suite of music and not a collection
of songs , that creates.moods and engages emotions as much as it does entertain on a song-by-song basis . If you don't get it you don't get it , and in the CD age where people are want to skip tracks willy-nilly I daresay Parade could lose some of its charm if youre only listening to your favourite joints from it as opposed to letting the album in its entirety take you on a ride .
Also , for every US fan who grew up with Prince through the early 80s and was disappointed by Parade and maybe jumped the boat , there was a new fan who didnt have preconcieved notions of a Prince album before 1984 as theyd most likely not heard any of Prince's album before then , and they stuck with him through ATWIAD and Parade and appreciated that this was an artist who was growing ..exponentially ...and wasn't going to give them what they expected and thats what they loved the most about him and his music.

jtfolden said:

The Dream Factory music was not intended for Cherry Moon/Parade.




I know the timeline. Of course, Warner Brothers wanted to wait and release the movie in the summer.



Actually, as early as November 1985, Wendy said "Prince is out of his mind. Prince ruined everything. Now were just a funk band." Wendy was unhappy about Prince and Susannah's relationship and she didn't like having her sister in the band. She also didn't want another guitarist in the band. In July 1986, Wendy and Lisa went to Prince's house to tell him that they wanted to leave the band if things didn't change. Prince drops the Revolution Dream Factory album idea.



The Dream Factory songs, some of which ended up on Sign O the Times, had a hard funk/rock sound. Not the Parade sound. They would not have fit on Parade. It, I Could Never Take The Place Of Your Man, The Cross, Witness 4 The Prosecution, etc.
[Edited 4/20/06 15:54pm]

rudeboynpg said:

I never said it was. I'm not sure where you got that idea. There were plenty of interesting, quality tracks recorded during the Parade sessions that could have been placed on record if Prince felt the need. However, more than one track from the Parade sessions ended up on various versions of Dream Factory during it's development in '86.



Right, Prince was quite anxious to unleash Parade on the public as he finished it up and moved on to the next musical project with W&L. He wasn't rushing it out for the sake of the movie and had plenty of time to 'improve it' if he felt it needed improving at that point.




...yes, Wendy was quite displease with the direction the live band was going. However, W&L were even more involved in studio with DF than they had been with Parade from most accounts. It wasn't until mid 86 that the idea of the group disbanding came to reality.




Actually, I can think of about 4 or 5 tracks in that genre, a majority were still in the same oddball/experimental mold of the Parade sessions (minus the European influence) like Visions, Train, Movie Star, A Place In Heaven, the title track, etc...
[Edited 4/20/06 15:58pm]

jtfolden said:

Your not sure where I got the idea that by "plenty of new interesting music that didn't make the album" you meant the Dream Factory music recorded in late 1985-1986? There was also the Madhouse style "Flesh" music. And songs like "Witness" do not have the Parade sound.



It seems he was anxious to move on, "go right back into the studio and make a killer album" not connected with Cherry Moon.



The Revolution was ending, sadly.




Movie Star and the title track have a funkier sound, in my opinion then the Parade music. And again, they were not meant for Parade/Cherry Moon, of course.
[Edited 4/20/06 17:07pm]

rudeboynpg said:

Yeah, you made that connection not me. I was talking about other tracks from that era such as All My Dreams, Sexual Suicide, Old Friends 4 Sale, etc...



You're using quotes out of context in an attempt to support conjecture. However, I agree with the idea he was attempting to distance himself from that period as he started hyping up the 'one man band approach' again.




Parade was not 'rushed out' because the Revolution was ending, contrary to what you posted previously. An entire album (and then some) came and went between the time Parade was finished and the Revolution was fired.




Given that Parade crosses more stylistic boundaries than any other Prince album, I think it's safe to say that just about any song could fit in with the right arrangement and production. I never suggested that DF tracks should be used on Parade, anyway, but the majority of those tracks do seem like a logical evolution to my ears. The June '86, 19 track list version with the bulk of W&L's contributions still intact seems that way especially, to me.



I think it's been established that we both know this. lol
[Edited 4/20/06 17:42pm]

jtfolden said:

Okay. Well, for one thing there was no way he was going to put Old Friends 4 Sale on Parade. 1, to personal. 2, doesn't fit the Cherry Moon film.



I don't think so. I think that's what he meant, it seems that's basically what he was saying, "right back into the studio and make a killer album" . And yeah, he went back to the one man band approach after the Parade tour in September 1986.



I'm not saying it was rushed out because the Revolution was ending. I'm saying it was rushed out because it seems he wanted to just release the album and the movie, he knew it was a disaster, and move on with the Dream Factory, then after the Revolution split, Crystal Ball, which became Sign O' The Times. Prince was full of confidence after the amazing success of Purple Rain in 1984 and the tour in 85. In late 85 and 86 Prince tried to do to much. Put together a new band, the Family, direct and act in a comedy movie. Make an album with a new sound to go with the film. He didn't have the skills to do all that, and do it well.



The Parade songs has a different sound then most of the Dream Factory. Keep in mind that Parade is the soundtrack to Cherry Moon. Songs have to fit the film.



True.
[Edited 4/20/06 18:55pm]

Maybe Prince should not have created The Family! There was too much going on at that time (ATWIAD, Sheila E., The Family, Parade, Under The Cherry Moon, Dream Factory & ghost writing for others)

rudeboynpg said:

I think you'll find that several songs on Parade really have no relation to the film whatsoever. There's nothing about New Position, Life Can Be So Nice, or Mountains, for example, that is movie specific. The one thing about Prince is that not only will he write music to fit a film but he'll also bend a movie around a bit of music. Furthermore, Old Friends 4 Sale was used, as an instrumental, in the film... it's not that far of a stretch to have seen it on the album, even with modified lyrics.



I just don't see anything in his actions, while it was actually happening, to support this... There's no reason to believe he'd tank an album just because he became unhappy with the movie and there's every indication that he was excited about the music on Parade at the time.



Actually, The Family was 'put together' much earlier. Though their album was out in early '85 Prince, for all intents and purposes, had them on hold while he worked on UTCM. This was one of the reasons St. Paul left the group.

Prince was actually not doing a measurable amount more during this period when you look at it overall. Compare to the PR era when he was acting in his first movie, making an album with a new sound to go with the film (and working on what would become ATWIAD at the same time), and working on THREE (or more) side acts at once.

wasn't all my dreams a Parade outtake? now thats what I call some pretty strong material by my standards.

One music critic once said: when Prince had released Parade as a double record, including outtakes like In all my dreams, Theres others here with us and the original Mia Bocca, it would have made a record as strong and classic as Sign of the Times. I agree with him on that.

Prince seemed to be on a creative 'roll' from 1985 unto 1987, putting out so much great material during that period: less blunt, more subtle, layered stuff then the music he released before and also after that. From being a musician bridging the gap between 'white' rock and black 'funk', Prince became the most eclectic musician in popmusic: I mean, he tried everything: from early 1920 - 1930 european music ala Brecht / Weill (under the cherry moon), french jazz (do u lie), Joni Mitchell-like folk (Sometimes it snows in april), Beatlesque pop-symphonies (christoper tracy's parade) and his own, very original hybrid on tracks like: In all my dreams, Crystall Ball and Mia Bocca.

During that period Prince sounded as a visionary, creating new audio landscapes, for me the period from Around the World in day unto Lovesexy can only be compared by the musical revolution The Beatles created from Rubber soul unto the white album

padawan said:

It's interesting what you've said here. Especially about songs like "Under The Cherry Moon" and "Do U Lie" sounding like Prince goofing around with his mate.

Because THESE are precisely the reasons that I love it so much.

It's real. Maybe not pretty or even tuneful in places (ie Christopher Tracy's Parade intro). But it completely captures spontanious thoughts and feelings.

"Do You Lie" is a great song because it's a great question. Prince is saying "Do you lie?" Do you love me, miss me, etc. Or are you just telling me those things to make me think you do?