Anx said:

I gotta tell you he's got you there, padawan. I've personally seen Anx unabashedly fam the fuck out when he feels like it.

You must have caught him on one of his level-headed days, but don't hold it against him.

cborgman said:

But albums like ATWIAD, Parade, and Lovesexy were not well received by fans or critics. Prince has only had major critical success with 1999, Purple Rain, and SOTT. The belief that Prince's music was so much better in the past is a facade created by nostalgia.

Anx said:

Mm. This has gone nowhere. Time to move on.

FunkMistress said:

Until I see it for myself it's just heresay.

Interesting that you feel the need to vouche for his capacity to fam the fuck out.

padawan said:

can't you just come up with some sterling last words so you can make yourself feel superior and move on?

loudawg said:

Exactly.

loudawg said:

What a load of arse.

On one hand, we've got people saying 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder' and on the other hand people saying what is almost universally acknowledged as Prince's most creative period is simply seen as such because of rose-tinted specs. There's no difference between Parade and Emancipation, or 1999 and Musicology? Gimme a break.
[Edited 4/3/06 10:51am]

Anx said:

Ironic.

No comparison at all IMO.
3121 could be a monster seller, but NO-ONE I know is talking about it, no-one gives a flying monkeys (and I gotta say I'm with them, I can think of a couple dozen lame-ass RnB (not to be confused with R&B!) bands that could produce that album (solely my opinion), half of it sounds to me like something I could do myself on my PC.
But I remember back in that PR - D&P period, maybe the album sales weren't as big, and maybe the critics panned him more, BUT! everybody, and I mean EVERYBODY knew who Prince was, his music was everywhere you went, and he was rarely far from peoples lips in coversations about music.
He was the baddest at what he did, and everyone knew it and at least respected him for it, if they didnt actually like it.
He made a difference back then, I personally don't feel he has contributed anything worthwhile for a good while.

What I don't get is how an artist that can literally Tear the Damn World TO PIECES! like Prince did on the Brits this year, can produce such a mediocre bland product like 3121.

For 12 minutes or so back there, I really thought "Oh, shit, he's BACK"

Peace.

skywalker said:

Well, not exactly. That is way too broad of a statement. The reviews for those albums were decidedly mixed, and in the case of Parade, it has become more favorably reviewed over time. And many in the media observed then that Prince maintained a devoted "core" fan base that enabled his albums to sell platinum, which is a standard that would be considered a "smash" hit for Prince today.

Many fans, like myself, were amazed at those albums.

I think that statement definitely has merit, but overgeneralizes a tad.

p0et said:

Bold words. I challenge you to make some music on your PC and let us hear it.

padawan said:

I would HONESTLY rather Swallow my own Tongue than produce ANYTHING RnB.

These days Im a Punk through and through, and spent the weekend writing and recording my first track, on this very PC. Got a whole load of Post to do, and the lyrics and intro to finish off.

But sure, you're on.

p0et said:

Awesome. Someone who puts his money where his mouth is.

skywalker said:

this, then, is an argument of perception. saleswise Lovesxy may be considered a dud, but only because it didn't match its predecesors. but despite less album sales than Lovesexy, 3121 appears more succesful because of where it charted and he is no longer being compared or expected to hit his sales numbers from his heyday like his late 80's albums were.

your argument essentially is more concerned about how 3121 is perceived as more succesful than his glory days, not whether it actually is or not. by your own position, 3121's appearance of success is partially attributed to lower expectations for it, where as an album like Lovesxy is only considered a dud because it failed it meet higher expectations.

so, sure, 3121, because of numerous factors surrounding it, appears to be more succesful than some of his glory days output, but in reality it is not.

but where this leads your argument is despite not being as succesful as Lovesexy, 3121 can be atleast viewed as a hit because of where it charted and because of lowered expectations. I simply disagree that this has any real merit or reflection on the success or lack thereof of any of his glory day albums.

this is a different argument than your original argument. nobody is saying Big Ben is better than Marino because he won the SB, just that he won a SB and Marino did not. this argument has two different factors, better QB and Super Bowl champion, whereas your original argument only has one factor, that 3121's success is more than some of his glory days simply because of where it charted, regardless of album sales.

your original argument, if transalted directly to this football analogy, would in fact claim that Ben is better because of the SB sucess, whereas I would dispute it by pointing to other factors, such as career accomplishments (or direct album sales comparisons) to dispute it.

padawan said:

i didn't wanna play this card, but...

when you've written for uptown, done time as a mod on a fan site, shown up in a concert shot in rolling stone, and had the man himself give you a slice of pizza at one of his shows, get back to me and we can continue this weenie war.

till then, i'm pretty comfortable enjoying what i enjoy the way i enjoy it.

ok, do your last word thing now. i'm done.

cborgman said:

I don't think the "quality " of the music has changed so far as the styles and how he makes the music has changed.

The music has shifted to this cosmopolitan chic, a cool urban sofisticated. The music is certainly a lot more "serious" and less playful....and dirty.

But I question this "quality" in his music. It IS good quality. Listen to it. There is quality. Thing is we know he can make this music with his eyes closed and with his hands tied behind his back.

I honestly think there is no "new" ground for him to cover though he keeps trying. There is no "new audience" to be had either, though he keeps trying here as well.

But really it's not about HIM...it's about YOU and how you relate to where he is now. Have you liked the output in the past 5-6 years? If you have, then you probably are ok and like much of what he's offering now. If you haven't then you're not going to. I really doubt you'll really like anything he will do forthcoming wither. He is just in a different place musically these days.

Anx said:

I'm not at war with you. Don't blow things out of proportion.

I engaged you in a debate and learned that when push comes to shove you turn petty and snivelling.

And that resume of accomplishments is the gayest thing I've ever heard.

But hey, I'm just a dick. If my words rub you the wrong way, they're just words. You'll get over it.

padawan said:

No one needs to vouche for what we all know about Anx. Casual Fan he's not. Just because you don't see it personally, doesn't mean it isn't so.

superspaceboy said:

I think there's a reason EVERYONE loves the song "3121" the best, because it's PRince being a little weirder, less commercial, more unpredictable, and dare I say.. Funky? When he sugarcoats his sound like he did on D&P, or with many of the new songs, it isn't the PRince that most of the ORG is here for. I'm here for the guy who has the balls to take out the bass line on his biggest hit, who sings about SEX and GOD in the same song, who takes chances, and dazzzles my ears..we don't want HITS, we want PRince, and if it's ahit fine!

Village Voice picked SOTT the top album of 1987, don't know where you were at, but you were not in reality land.

padawan said:

Now wait a minute, padawan.

Haven't you been questioning Anx's proclivity to be enthralled by Prince, and Then Anx lays it out the background for you. Then, ironically, you echo what Prince haters used to say about Prince fans: that they must be gay to be into his music.

You can't have it both ways, and you're better than that.

Sure, I may wear purple colored glasses, but some of you guys are wearing shit-covered glasses.

"I think there's a reason EVERYONE loves the song "3121" the best..."

According to this thread (http://www.prince.org/msg/7/183422), people on the Org like Fury, Love, and The Word better than 3121.

"But I remember back in that PR - D&P period, maybe the album sales weren't as big, and maybe the critics panned him more, BUT! everybody, and I mean EVERYBODY knew who Prince was, his music was everywhere you went, and he was rarely far from peoples lips in coversations about music. He was the baddest at what he did, and everyone knew it and at least respected him for it, if they didnt actually like it. "

Personally I rarely talked about Prince until the mid 90's, and no one I know did either. Why? Because we weren't fans. We didn't give a crap about his music. We thought he was a gay Michael Jackson wanna be. We were too busy listening to our rock-gods and anti-establishment garage punk.

"so, sure, 3121, because of numerous factors surrounding it, appears to be more succesful than some of his glory days output, but in reality it is not."

The album has been out a week, and we are comparing it already to the 80's albums? I think we need to let a little more time pass before we declare a success or failure. That having been said, though, I don't think Skywalker was arguing that expecations for Prince are lowered (though that may be the case, it is beside the point.) When comparing current sales to 80's sales, remember that in the 80's we didn't have the internet or mp3 and the music industry was in a sales increase, not suffering through multiple consecutive years of sales slumps. In other words, there's more than just the quality of the product that goes into determining sales figures. Furthermore, if we are comparing 3121 to Lovesexy (not sure how we settled on that album...), Lovesexy followed two commercial disappointments for Prince (Parade and SOTT) and two critical disappointments (ATWIAD and Parade). 3121, in contrast, follows a commercial and critical success (Musicology).

"But really it's not about HIM...it's about YOU and how you relate to where he is now."

Agree completely. What touches a nerve in me is when people promote as gospel that the 80's stuff is better than everything else just because, well, it is, and everyone knows it. On the contrary, everyone does not know it; and the continual negativity on a Prince Fan board at the very moment Prince is reasserting himself as a pop force after years of commercial exile... it's just depressing.

Anx said:

DAMN!........reading that shut ME up.
[Edited 4/3/06 20:37pm]

2freaky4church1 said:

If I recall correctly from reading Per Nelson's book, didn't Rolling Stone originally pan SOTT?

namepeace said:

Look, I don't care if you're a casual fan, a die hard fan, a dyed in the wool true blue will-sacrifice-your-first-born-for-Prince fan, whatever. Posting on these forums alone qualifies you as a fairly serious follower of Prince music.

But when someone cerebrally modulates his appreciation of Prince music, warns others not to expect to be wowed by Prince, then lucidly lists his credentials to prove what a Prince nut he really is, that strikes me as queer in the basic sense of the word.

If you're a moderate, even-tempered fan who approaches new Prince music with reservation, that's fine. If you're bonkers for him with no sense of criticality whatsoever and love everything he puts out, hey, that's cool too.

Just don't claim to possess qualities you don't show.

dumbass said:

Okay fine, we are talking about perception. Big Momma's house may have made more money at the box office than Scarface. According to your argument, Big Momma's house is a better movie, despite the public's opinion/perception that Scarface is a movie of higher quality.
[Edited 4/4/06 8:11am]

padawan said:

Then you should have said that, just the way you said it.



I'd agree with that, but for a couple of points. As you said, posting on here is evidence of your status as a serious Prince fan per se.

And none of us can give a complete assessment of one's qualities or characteristics based upon random postings on an internet forum.

namepeace said:

Sometimes I get rude, cuz it's more important for me to honestly express myself than to conform to social niceties.




True. But people do reveal their tendencies in small ways. And hell, what they hide or refuse to show betrays their hangups.

skywalker said:

no, that is your argument, comparing only one aspect of success, for the albums being where it charts and these movies simply box office numbers, while ignoring important other factors.

you don't even understand your own argument. I'm saying you can't look at just where the albums charted or the box office numbers, there are other aspects that define the sucess. not to mention I haven't made one judgement about the quality of the music or the movies, you have.

"...you don't even understand your own argument. I'm saying you can't look at just where the albums charted or the box office numbers, there are other aspects that define the sucess. not to mention I haven't made one judgement about the quality of the music or the movies, you have...."

Wow. No need to be insulting. I understand my argument just fine. I have maintained all along that it's about perception, while you have been giving me numbers and semantics of argument.

I agree with you that success IS about more than just numbers. That is why 3121 will be viewed by many as being a more successful album than lovesexy. Lovesexy may have sold more copies in it's intital week, but success isn't all about numbers. It's about status and perception. 3121 has the status of being a breakout album that debuted at #1. For that reason, many will percieve it as being "more successful" than lovesexy, which was by in large viewed as a dud when it first came out.

The actual quality of the art is another matter. With Scarface , I wasn't trying to argue that it was a movie of more quality, only that it is perceived that way by most, regardless of numbers.
[Edited 4/4/06 11:09am]