skywalker said:

actually, those old classic 80s albums remind me of some pretty tough times from my teenage years, and that music was my escape, so i do have less than happy memories tied to those albums, but i also thank my lucky stars that i had 'em. i don't need albums like 3121 or musicology to help me get through things these days...i've carved out other "private happy places"...but i still enjoy them in apprciation of what those old albums meant to me back in the day. if that makes any sense. plus, i just enjoy 'em as good ol' music.

NouveauDance said:

Ironic.

FILF said:

you need to go back and give for you a good listen in a few years...or maybe even now.

padawan said:

i don't really EXPECT that "first time" giddiness anymore. part of it is where he's gone as an evolving musician and as a man who, let's face it, is getting older. part of it is where i've gone in my evolution in terms of what i like to listen to and the fact that, let's face it, i'm getting older too. i think prince has gotten more conventional with age, but at the same time, he's still prince and what he does is always going to be "different" than what anyone else does. that's always going to be exciting to me, whether i'm freaked out by his latest album or not. i'm still enjoying the ride, even if it's not as much of a dangerous joyride as it used to be. i have over 25 years of history as a fan of his music, and there are experiences that i enjoyed in, say, 1987, that can't be replicated now. and i understand and appreciate that for what it is. i'm not trying to expect something that should be left in the past. no "bitterness" here. but i'm not going to pretend to be just as blown away just for the sake of appearing to be a "true fan". dude gets my money whenever he releases music or goes on tour. how much more true do i have to be?

dumbass said:

These are pretty good points.

dumbass said:

I get what you are saying, but the fact is no one is selling records like they were in the 80's. Because of various factors, including online music sharing, the business has changed. The fact is 3121 can be called a #1 hit album, and will be viewed as such, while lovesexy is viewed (saleswise) as a dud.

Ex. Current NFL champion quarterback Ben Roethlisberger might not be as good a quarterback as Dan Marino- he might not have as good of stats, etc. However, history will remember Roethlisberger as being an NFL champion and Marino as a great quarterback who never quite got to the mountain top.

Now I know football and music sales are two different things, but the idea that success isn't all about #'s and and stats. It's about perception.

Anx said:

Hey, you're free to be whatever kind of fan you wish. If you're shelling out for every new release and tour, but not all that jazzed on his new work, i'd say your'e a habitual repeat customer.

As for Prince getting more conventional with age, that's a cliche if ever I heard one. And of course he's evolving.

He certainly went through a phase where he denied his icon status and acted like a desperate rookie.

I'm glad to see him back just flowing, having fun, letting it rip.

padawan said:

who's saying i'm not "jazzed"? i still enjoy his new work, though maybe with a bit more reservation than i used to have. if i flat-out didn't like it, i'd quit following him. it's happened with other bands i used to swear by. there's always SOMEthing about a new prince project that i enjoy. i guess the problem you and i are having in this discussion is that i don't enjoy his stuff the same way you do, which is fine....because i'm not you.

cborgman said:

Exactly, I know Prince is older and most musicians only have so much creativity in their tank in one lifetime. But to compare Prince's originlaity and creativity of the past to the new stuff is not even worth it. If he was a new artist and "3121" was his debut record, I don't think we would all be online talking about his "genius".

the same with Stevie wonder, I was listening to "Talking Book" this weekend and I really think computers killed good music. Everything is so damn slick and perfectly on the beat now, it's like robot music.

DMSR said:

Eh, more nitpicking.

Tell me something I haven't heard.

Almost every major artist has a "good ole days," Prince is in a long line of great artists, who fall off of their greatness levels. Age seems to dull the old processors.

Anx said:

There's no problem as I see it. Just exchanging thoughts. It's obvious you strive to be a dispassionate, level-headed fan who doesn't get too excited about Prince, and I just think that's silly.

It's okay to be a goofy fanboy sometimes.

I just rocked out to "Black Sweat," dancing like a fool. I ain't ashamed.

padawan said:

co-sign

skywalker said:

The "Rainbow Children"-"ONAL"-"NEWS"-"Musicology"-"3121" string of releases is easily his best streak of albums since the 80's, and in many ways more sophisticated and nuanced.

The 80's stuff is his legacy, but in retrospect is at times nieve, immature and not as polshed compositionally as his current work.

This is his second great streak to me.

This is a pretty amazing thread... I'd say the level of discourse has remained civil. I was sure this would break out into a flame war by page 2, but so far everyone has kept there cool. I admire everyone who has replied so far.

The most frustrating type of posts to read (for me) are the ones that state as fact somethng that I don't agree with. IMO Prince music today is probably less inspired than his early stuff, but more accomplished and more nuanced. In the 80's he was a brash upstart looking to do things his own way; he had to show the world that he was different, worth noticing. In the 00's he seems to have found that way, and is comfortable in it. Having made his fortune he has nothing left to prove, he can just record the types of songs he wants to.

To state "as fact' that he has lost his genius is baseless. What kind of objective genius-o-meter can we refer to? There is none. And to state that 3121 is a shit album is to ignore reality. The reality is that 3121 is the first album to hit #1 in sales since Batman; that 3121 has drawn largely extremele positive reviews from the critics; and 3121 appears to be well liked by the majority of fans on this site.

If you don't like the album, that's totally cool, but that doesn't mean you are justified to slag it. For example, I can't stand pickles. Have never liked them. I hate the smell of vinegar and the taste just caueses an immediate revulsion in me. If anyone asks me if I want a pickle, I say "No, thanks. I don't like pickles." I don't say "Pickles are shit and anyone who likes them doesn't know good food." I'm not ego-centric enough to think that my taste is the definitive source of what is good, because I know that most other people like pickles.

So... to you guys that don't like 3121, that's cool. I personally don't like "For You" and "Prince". Whatever. But please don't make the mistake of thinking that because you don't like it, it has no value; especially when all other evidence points to the contrary.

Here is how I see it:

You are going to prison for embezzling millions from your employer.

Judge hit you with 10 years.

However, judge has been down with the Minneapolis sound from jump street soooo...judge hands you five cds and they are sealed copies of:

1) Sign O the Times
2) 1999
3) Dirty Mind
4) Batman Soundtrack
5) 3121

You are allowed to take four with you to do your ten years. They are the only cds you will ever be allowed to listen to.

Which four would you take?

I know which four I'm taking...PEACE

darkstranger521 said:

Dude, you're hilarious.

thomas840 said:

Aw yes, you're an analytical mind. In psychological terms, it would be called projection. In moral terminology, it's known as casting judgment. In laymen's terms, it would be called talking out your ass.

It's a fundamental problem of life. Blaming others for how we feel.

I think George Carlin had the best example of projection. When we lose something we always assume someone stole it, not that we lost it. Even if it's something nobody wants.

So if you really like guacamole popsicles, and one day you can't find them in your freezer, instead of admitting you lost them, you go, "Who stole my guacamole popsicles????"

padawan said:

FRESHMAN PSYCH

REAR IT UGLY HEAD

padawan said:

I would rather the album tanks, so hopefully Prince can get angry and switch some gears.

POOK said:

Ick. Stay away, troll.

padawan said:

Sorry, I'm confused. I guess it's been too many years since my psyche 101. Are you saying that I'm projecting? What am I projecting, and onto who? Are you saying that I really don't like 3121? Make it crystal for me, consider me completely ignorant of projection.

TimeKeeper said:

That's a fucked up thing to wish for. That's like me saying, hey TimeKeeper, I hope you lose your job and become homeless so you learn to appreciate things and get your shit together.

thomas840 said:

It was nothing personal. Just commenting on the idea of fans blaming Prince music for their own lack of enjoyment.

I was agreeing with you.

My first sentence was personal, and that probably confused you. Maybe you read the whole thing as a criticism of you. That wasn't my intention.

It was a general commentary on your ideas.

See, if there were loads of other great bands and artists and scenes and forward motion in music generally right now, I don't think people would really care that Prince's new material has been very weak for over ten years now. It's specifically that there's NOTHING else out there now in terms of what we have all come to consider our birthright in terms of extremely high quality American music, so because Prince is still such a great LIVE performer, someone who still embodies the sum totality of American musical genius in that regard, he is considered one of, if not the, last man standing in terms of what has made this country so great culturally. As such, when Prince makes such weak records as 3121, it is truly a reminder of the much, much, much deeper phenomenon going on in the world - and that is the very obvious death of American music, which is nothing less than the spiritual death of our country. And this is the real issue here I'm afraid. Prince has come and gone in terms of his creative output - BUT nothing else has come along to take his place. It is THIS that is so distressing to us "old school" Prince fans - not so much that Prince fell off creatively - that happens to EVERYBODY. Prince being the Prince of yesteryear - which he clearly is not and anyone who is funky knows this - is a completely unrealistic expectation. No, the source of our discomfort really lies elsewhere - that the funk has died, and not even Prince can bring it back, try as he might. This is an incredibly uncomfortable truth for one to reconcile oneself to, particularly if you are an American as this IS our national culture (the blues, and everything that came out of the blues).

darkstranger521 said:

Darkstranger:

What an interesting post. That's something new... and I think very cool. You obviously feel passionate about this. It makes sense that as American's view of their place in the world changes that our music will change also... to act as both a reflection and critic of our position.

IMO there's still lots of great music out there, but the problem is delivery. Deregulation of our airwaves has led to huge media corporations controlling the news we receive and how we receive; but also the music we hear. Case in point, 3121 debuts #1 and radio still doesn't play him. If radio stations were still independent, and they see an album go #1, you think there's a chance in hell they won't give the album a few spins on air to see what sticks?

That's an old argument but I bring it up here because IMO it's a much more important reason for any decline in American music.

But I also want to point out what you've done here. You write "I don't think people would really care that Prince's new material has been very weak for over ten years now." And later: "As such, when Prince makes such weak records as 3121, it is truly a reminder of the much, much, much deeper phenomenon going on in the world - and that is the very obvious death of American music."

You assume as your premise something that is very much in dispute and, quite frankly, unknowable. All you can really say for sure is that you have enjoyed Prince's music less over the last 10 years; but how does that equate to his albums being weaker? You also then state that there is an "obvious death of American music." I have found that usually when someone uses the phrase "it is obvious that..." that it is anything but. This is not to slag your ideas... I think it's an interesting take. But it's also not as cut-and-dry as you seem to imply; I think there's lots of room for discussion.

Yes, you are correct. There is a major problem with delivery, a major problem with corporate intrusion and takeover of our culture. No doubt about that at all. And that is a big part of the problem.

But you seem to be suggesting that there are bands of the level of Led Zeppelin, Aerosmith, Earth Wind & Fire, Pretenders, Rolling Stones etc or individuals such as David Bowie or Stevie Wonder or Marvin Gaye or Jimi Hendrix and we as music lovers are simply being denied access to them by the corporate idiocracies who now control the music industry.

But the reality is THERE ARE NO BANDS OR INDIVIDUALS who BEGIN to approach the GREATNESS of just the smattering I mentioned in the previous paragraph. We don't hear about them because they don't exist. This quality of music is GONE FROM THE EARTH. Because if these bands were out there somewhere unsigned, bands that could kick as much ass as Led Zeppelin did we'd find out about them the very quickly the old-fashioned way - from touring and word of mouth and they'd become huge stars yesterday because the whole planet is STARVING for real music of the Led Zeppelin LEVEL of greatness. Yes, there are some bands and individuals who don't suck today, but there is simply nothing, nothing at all that even approaches what I consider to be really good music, of the type I've been listening to my whole life, since 1972.

So while I agree with the corporate takeover blocking a lot of things, and that is certainly a factor...I stand by my post. American music is dead and I choose to not be in denial about it.

But I won't blame Prince for it, either. I am sure he is most aware and displeased by this as well.

Now, it is my opinion that 3121 is really weak, as is most of Prince's original recording studio work since the Gold Experience. Now his live playing of this same material is another matter. That is some good shit. I believe I will really enjoy much/all of 3121 played live. Because I know it WILL be funkdafied. But at any rate my opinion regarding post-GE original Prince music is shared by many others here around my age. And the point of my post is to explain why we so passionately feel the way we do, that it's far more than a Prince thing. It's that Prince is one of the very few people doing anything to keep our culture alive, so I think we project UNTO Prince our general extreme dissatisfaction with the drastic downward spiral in our country, the extreme cutural debasement that is infecting everything nowadays. We want Prince, his royal badness to rise to the challenge, and save the funk, save our souls one last time and when he cannot deliver on record, when the new record doesn't move us an inch, we are left having to face the truth, that there is something dreadful going on in this world, and we have been left to face it WITHOUT the music. And that is scary.

But having said that, I am happy for Prince, and I think it's great so many people love 3121. Really I do.

darkstranger521 said:

I'm feeling a lot of nihilism and nationalism in your post. Prince is a national treasure, yes, his contributions to funk and pop rock are indelible. But announcing the death of American music and the spiritual death of America itself is a little bit over the top.

Let's scale it down to human proportions.

I feel your disillusionment with the current music scene, how Prince's recent output leaves you cold. The whole 90s left me cold, up to and including Prince music. All I did was bitch and moan about how Prince was following hip hop and the whole grunge scene simply did not appeal to me. Well, I liked Pearl Jam. Thought "Black" and "Jeremy" were true. "Jeremy" was intensely prophetic--Eddie Vedder wrote that way before the Columbine shootings.

I guess I wasn't ready for Nirvana's gloominess and angst. I wanted more of the pretty pop synth sounds of the 80s like a kid who refused to grow up. But after a decade of mostly cheesy sparkly sounding songs it was only natural that the national mood turn darker, more sombre and a little bit pouty.

Now in the 2000s, I see a shift toward independent-minded women, folksy singer-songwriters, and above all, optimism. New voices are emerging from the cocoon of grunge, and Prince himself seems to have new life in this new environment.

darkstranger521 said:

I feel you, really. But I think some of the greatness of those bands can only be truly appreciated once the music has been around for a while, and the same is true of the new classics being recorded today.

I am NOT tuned into today's music scene, so my knowledge is very limited. As I get older music becomes less important to my life. Nonetheless I submit that the following American artists - all very much recording today - could enter the rock pantheon:

The White Stripes
StellaStarr*
Norah Jones
REM
Bon Jovi
Nine Inch Nails
Lenny Kravitz

BTW, most of the bands you listed in your example are British, not American. I only point this out because your post was about the death of American music.

The superbands of the past are pretty much gone. I'd also submit that alot of those bands aren't as great as their legend implies. Zeppelin? Over-indulgent rock-opera. Aerosmith? Rolling Stones wanna be's. The Rolling Stones? Average blues bland that happens to be white. I say this, not because I don't like these bands (I do), but to show that even "the classics" are imperfect.

By the way, I'm probably closer to your age than you think... it's always a danger to try to speak for an amorphous group of individuals.

padawan said:

and i think you enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing. either that, or you think you know me a whole lot better than you really do.