Whys is it when Prince had no money and recorded in his basement in his purple house or at the wherehouse you could at least hear his voice? Why do the synths on "1999" sound fuller than 3121? Why is the production from the 80's up to the "symbol" album so much better than the last few albums? Is Susan Rogers missing?

What's going on with the last few records? Prince used to be able to make a professional sounding record, 3121 is seriously flawed, and the songs are compromised. If I hadn't seen "Fury" live, I would think it was OK, not unbelievable like it was on SNL.

I've always liked Prince's minimalistic approach, but he seems to be struggling to turn his vocals up or to use a keyboard that sounds cool, and not from Target. Even the horns sound really bad, and the autotune on "Incense" is inexcusable, even Madonna has started to layoff that Cher effect.

"Lolita" is trying to be "I Wanna Be Your Lover" but it sounds like an imitation and again producton is canned.

All you producers out there, let's hear your input.. Maybe 3121 could be great, but compare the production to anything past or present and it sounds like shite...

DMSR said:

I don't think anything's wrong with the production as such, it's Prince's most professionally produced album since, say, "Symbol" or "Come" (with a few misfires like "Fury" on it as well though). It's just that for Prince it works better if he's not going for such a polished sound, and he's admitted to this himself in interviews. It's a mystery to me why he never follows his own guidelines of what he views as preferable, but time after time comes up with something that is just trying to reflect the production styles of the R&B marketplace. And the production values of the R&B marketplace do not compliment a song like "Fury".



Because they're all analog, recorded to satured analog tape. Basically just means that they're a bit distorted in a very unique way and lack all the "sparkly" high-end that characterizes today's high fidelity sound. For instance the synth sound used on the main riff to "Lolita" contains something that to my ears sounds like cut-off/resonance distortion from the filter section on the Nord Lead 3 - keyboard (could be pretty much anything else as well though). When this "sizzle" is there it might work as something that enriches the texture, but it also kills off the warmth inevitably. You really just can't have both.



"Musicology" was left raw by intent. Thank God, because I don't think the songs were enough strong for the most part to be able to carry a full album as well as the end-product did. I like the production om "Musicology", even the drum sounds of "Life O´The Party" (especially the drum sounds on "Life O´The Party") that seem to upset some folks over here. It could be even earthier still, however.



This seems to be a common misconception about synths in general amongst Prince fans. Prince uses the very cream of the crop of synths these days, as in the most expensive, and that's exactly what you get in the end. Cold, digital-sounding, highly-textured, often "airy" soundscapes that do not fit perfectly with his songwriting style and the way his "funkiness" operates. Basically, he just has too much money and doesn't want to investigate the instruments thoroughly enough. Just uses the preset sounds or hires somebody else to do the patches for him. Before, he had to twitch the knobs himself.



I have no idea what you are referring to with this statement. I don't hear anything wrong with the horns.

But why does almost every post 1995 Prince song occasionally being played on the radio sound so "weak", low in volume, "narrow" (with regard to stereo/panorama), lacking (sonic, not musical) brilliance, "presence" and punch and whatever in comparison to the songs being played before or afterwards?
Is it an issue of mastering and post-production, or sound engineering? Is it due to mediocre personell involved, Prince's complacency and resistance to criticism and suggestions...?
I don't know. But it's really annoying for me to listen to an album of his and think: "well... this could have been better, if... he should have...then it would have been perfect".
I expect him to be perfect on all steps of the musical "production chain", an expectation probably impossible to meet for ANYBODY today, given the level of division of work and specialization in this field...

I don't get this "cannot hear his voice" at all? The only song where the voice is deep in the mix, kind of hidden is 'Fury', and I'll be damned if that wasn'T intentional (of course it was), like in some old Stones songs.

felixthenotcat said:

Because you're used to hearing them a zillion times on your CDs and your ears are already attuned to them as opposed to the other matierial? The mastering tricks are just that, tricks. You'll get used to them after a while. And well, yes, most radio-oriented music is even arranged the way so that the dynamic properties of the tracks seem more dramatic. Prince has never done, thank God, for instance "power choruses" or "swedish bridges" (there's a short gap of silence before the next part hits - oh wait he sort of did do that already on "Purple Rain" and "Kiss"),

But yeah, I suspect Prince's cuts might be somewhat low in volume in comparison with most of the chart-topping material and this is just because most of those records have been mastered so ridiculously hot that they're already way past acceptable distortion levels (this is done just in order to make the songs stand out in airplay). "Presence" you say? Well, that's just it - it's the distortion that occurs on the higher frequencies of the frequency response curve when you overdrive the music too many times through a mastering limiter.

In fact, Prince might have been one of the first culprits to employ this strategy, as TGE was apparently the first mainstream record mastered this way, "deliberately wrong". But in order to get the levels even higher than that you'll need to do adjustments to the overall mixing as well - this would be the type of mixing that doesn't even take into account any artistic merits but just ensures that certain frequencies can be pushed better to their limits. That is full of crapola and such an unfortunate strategy that's marring music production these days. Music is supposed to be music, not goddamn skijumping.

calldapplwondery83 said:

On "Fury" it sounds like hes playing the drums or guitar and singing live, its that weak in the mix. And On "Black Sweat", if you compare this to "Kiss" or the Stones "Miss You", his vocals barely are audible in some parts over the drum track, and it diminishes the funk. The vocals aren't weak on all the tracks, but those stand out to me.

I agree with the other comments about using the synth presets, I think maybe that's what I'm hearing too. A song like "Dorothy Parker" or say even the production on a slow one like "Sweet Baby" had some original touches that seems to be missing on the new stuff. "Love" could have been a hit if he hadn't used those apple loop sounds. It seems to be a funky riff, and the breakdown at the end is great, but the drum fills are right off Emancipation and when I compare the synth riff with older stuff like Erotic City, or anything on 1999, the new sound is much more generic. Maybe Prince is tired of spending so much time on the production and just wants to record and get the songs out, but its frustrating. What if "Little Red Corvette" had preset sounds and a basic drum track, with less guitar, etc.? The production makes that 3 chord song soar..

DMSR said:

I thought it was just me. I agree.

i'm not thrilled with how the album was mixed, either. in a few songs, i'm struggling to hear prince's voice, and i also think the horns and guitar get mixed down more than they should be, and the synths and effects are mixed way up. i like the musicianship and songwriting on 3121, but the production and mixing are kinda squirrelly, in my opinion.

i too noticed that it sounded like crap when i was listening to it in my car..the mastering IS bad...

I'm still trying my best to hear where his voice is too low in the mix, except for 'Fury'. Just can't hear it.

Anx said:

Agreed. I have bought the new Donald Fagen CD (organic music) and the latest Goldfrapp (electronic music mainly) and they just sound so much better compared to 3121, I was shocked. Too bad, as 3121 is a pretty decent Prince album and would have benefitted from better mixing and mastering.

I also agree about the synths used on the album, he should really dig up those old Oberheims, hehe!

I find the technical explanations interesting but it seems that you can sum it up in one word:

LAZY


I'm not saying I condone it, but I understand. At 36 I'm way lazier than I was at 25 and at 45 I cant imagine getting out of bed at all.
[Edited 3/25/06 8:17am]

DMSR said:

The production of LRC seems to be very basic. The drums are all linndrum (speaking of presets) while the synthsounds are pretty much basic oberheim fare.. some standard strings and other stuff which isn't too special taken on it's own. The vocals are heavily distorted at places (unintentionally, i assume). The thing about using this old analog gear (well the linn is digital actually.. wonderfull 8-bit samples.. lol) is that it does have some kind of organicness to it. Also, using analog tape sortof melts things together a bit more. There are little influences like crostalk and slight distortion which makes it seem to sound 'warmer.

There's nothing too special about the sounds used in LRC, in fact they're almost presets. It's just that the combination of the whole deal combined with some fine songwriting makes the thing fly.

I will tell you why the engeneering is bad.

Prince changes his engeneers very often. He hires new ones, squeezes them out (80 hours work / week) and if they are not contend with the masters opinions he fires them.
Plus: He breathless produces new tracks and forces the engeneers to mix the tracks too fast.
[Edited 3/25/06 9:00am]

tainacher said:

But hasn't he always done this? Wasn't "When doves Cry" written and recorded in a one night session? Why does that track still sound fresh (from the opening riff to the last note) over 20 years later? The originality and production in Prince's music used to show through, now he's below par when it comes to new producers like the Neptunes or even his own work.

DMSR said:

I'm not an engineer and I'm certainly not a producer, but I agree that 3121 along with Musicology don't quite sound "right". I'm not sure what it is but the instruments sound very "dense" and they don't seem to have the necessary room to breathe. I don't think it cripples the album by any stretch, I've gotten used to the way Musicology sounds and I'm sure I'll get used to 3121. But I do think both albums could have sounded better.

I have trouble getting my cd to play!, the Te Amo single wouldnt play at all

4nowneway said:

Are you trying to play them on your computer CD-ROM drive or a DVD-player?

Novabreaker said:

cd player

4nowneway said:

If it's an old one, it might have problems playing copyright-controlled CDs. Be free to download the whole album from the internet, or make a ripped copy of the CD using your computer, and play the CD-R in your CD-player instead. It's perfectly legal if you have the original copy and it refuses to play on your player.

Well actually it's not according to the new idiotic copyright laws, but who's gonna stop you?

All these production flaws probably wouldve been less noticable if the songs were just better.

Sheesh the guy can't with with us. We complain about Kirky J on "Emancipation" and we want him to bring back Camille and the Linn Drum and he does on "3121" and we still complain?? face it the new disc is what prince is all about

felixthenotcat said:

Because radio can not reproduce everything that a CD does. And neither can you car stereo. What we can record is ahead of broadcast quality. And many radio stations still compress the audio to send it through the telephone wires at some point along the way to the transmitter.

I don't prefer the anologue sound of his older albums.
I much prefer the cleanedup up versions on Ultimate Prince although I do wish they would have kept most of the longer versions on the album.

3121 sounds like one of his best produced since the symbol album to me.

HomeSquid said:

who asked for the Camille voice or the Linn Drum? i really appreciate the technical opinions shared on this thread by others..doesnt mean its taking away from my enjoyment..

for my, my ear cant really pick up what all you all are talking about..but i will say that i really hate all the background layered voices of the songs...they arent needed..The Word for example, my fav track, is almost murdered by the horrible overdubbing...

other then that, for me....im enjoying things as i hear them...

Anx said:

I agree with many of the sentiments above, which I think are best summarised by Anx's quote.

It would be really interesting to hear from anyone with production / mixing / engineering experience on what's going on here...

3121 in particular - the songwriting and musicianship is strong on this album - but the songs are let down in their presentation and arrangement. The album has the raw material for some absolutely classic pop singles (Lolita, Black Sweat, Love, Fury, The Word). However, the way they are realised on the album does not do them full justice.

It's difficult to describe... I think the best way of explaining it is to refer to examples from Prince's back catalogue. If you compare Chaka Khan's version of "I feel for U" to Prince's - the production on the former lifted it to pop classic status. Also - Sinead O'Connor's "Nothing Compares 2U" - the production turned that in to an absolute pop monster.

If Prince is going to continue down the more commercial route he's started with Musicology and 3121, I'd really like to see him bring in some strong producers to support him.

i dont hear any production issues

Novabreaker said:

you mean you cant even buy a cd from a store these days and expect it to play right?

emesem said:

I agree with that!