Probably THE most often heard (read?..lol) complaint is that "Prince isn't breaking any new ground with (fill in the blank)"...that he's not "pushing the envelope on this CD"...etc, etc.

I personally don't believe that Prince has ever broken new ground, given us something we've never heard before...and has rarely pushed the envelope musically. My own viewpoint has always been that what made 99% of people Prince fans is his ability to concoct ridiculously catchy and infectious melodies that are coupled with insanely dancable beats and a cool and charismatic vocal delivery...as well as showcasing some incredible musicianship. That's one helluva combination, and one helluva rare one in pop music...so rare that my view has always been that's a huge reason why he remains so irreplacable in many fans' minds and hearts. But none of that is about "breaking new ground" or "pushing the envelope" musically.

That he seemlessly adds hints of several genres to the mix was the icing, as well as the sign of genius. That he was able to do it so consistently year after year, album after album, was the icing, as well as the sign of genius. Anyone can (theoretically) do it once...to do it seven times in a row is a sign of something else.

But again...qualities of groundbreaking and envelope-pushing, at least in my mind, really didn't play too much of a role as to why the majority of Prince fans became Prince fans to begin with.

My theory is that Prince's "sound" was somewhat new to the pop music scene when he first arrived...and definitely was new to individual listeners. I was in college in Indiana when Prince first hit it big...a lot of people hearing his music in Indiana may have felt it was groundbreaking and innovative, but at the same time a lot of people in Indiana didn't know Prince from Freddy Prinze (literally, I mean that), and thought my Walkman was a hearing aid at the time (again, literally)...lol...so, no offense to Indiana, but just because it was considered "groundbreaking and innovative" to their ears didn't really mean much.

Maybe a lot of Prince fans are similar...that just because his music seemed "different" to their indivudial ears, doesn't mean it was groundbreaking and envelope-pushing...it may just mean that not too many pop music lovers were exposed to a lot of various musical types and genres.

So I was thinking...what are the best examples of Prince being truly "groundbreaking", "innovative" and "pushing the envelope"??...

Just so you know where I stand, I don't consider leaving the bass line out of "When Doves Cry" to be groundbreaking or innovative...I also don't consider using a synth where you would normally hear real horns to be innovative, either. In my mind, Prince brought the use of a synthesizer in pop music to new heights through his amazing musicianship. In other words, his use of the synth was lightyears better than the stuff you'd hear on an Asia or Loverboy album at the time...lol...but was it anymore groundbreaking? Not really, no. Just much, MUCH better performed and played. His use of a drum machine probably falls closer to groundbreaking in my eyes (or maybe I mean "innovative" moreso than groundbreaking)...

Anyhoo..

Give examples of truly groundbreaking, unique, pushing-the-envelope songs in Prince's career...I guess I just want to get an idea of what fans mean when they use these terms to explain why they became fans.

Byron said:

I agree with you. I think he has made some very influential stuff (Minneapolis sound, combination of funk with 80's sounds, mixing styles), but the term "groundbreaking" really is misleading. The only "groundbreaking" act in pop music might have been Kraftwerk, and they just more or less did what people in art music had done 20 years before.

Cinnamon Girl immediately comes to mind for me. Something about subjects that make people uncomfortable to discuss but he gets folks to talking.


Great post, WellBeyond.

skywalker said:

1) He put his own twist on what came after??...

2) Putting your own "twist" doesn't equate to groundbreaking...it's more the definition of "unique". And afterall, Micheal Bolton puts his own twist on his songs as well...it's a horrid, bitter twist, but it's still his...lol...hardly would consider his results "groundbreaking", though.

3) Being the "most versatile and legit musician" in pop music doesn't equate to "groundbreaking", either...it equates to talented. Ok, hella talented..lol.

Romera said:

Romera said:

By the way, I can see why the subject matter & lyrics for "Cinnamon Girl" would be considered "groundbreaking", especially in pop music...

skywalker said:

Maybe I have a different idea of "groundbreaking". I think it is a very strong expression. Most developments in pop music have been achieved more by a scene or trend or subculture rather than a single person or very small circle of people. Beat music in the 60's, art and glam rock in the 70's, the complete traditional Motown soul or the 70's funk, punk, disco, synthie pop, hip hop - all more the products of "movements" than of single people (which I would label "groundbreaking"). From that point of view, I don't think that Prince ever was "groundbreaking". "Influential" is a totally different topic. I would say that about Prince anytime.

Byron said:

Alright, let's agree on a definition of groundbreaking okay? Here's one from dictionary.com-

groundbreaking

adj : being or producing something like nothing done or experienced or created before; "stylistically innovative works"; "innovative members of the artistic community"; "a mind so innovational, so original" [syn: innovative, innovational]

Listen, you alreaded conceded to Prince being "unique and hella talented". Essentially, it's on you to point out why Prince is NOT "stylistically innovative", etc. I can prove he is with simply one song. Its' been said before "When Doves Cry" ---nobody had heard or done anything like that before EVER. Prove me wrong. Also, the MPLS sound is original and stylistacally innovative. All you've got to do is look at the 80's at how many people copied THAT sound and production technique. Without Prince, would you have Rhythm Nation? Would you have Jimmy and Terry's greatest hits? I say no.

PS. "1) He put his own twist on what came after??..."

Yeah, after. You may not like his take on hip/hop, but sometimes when he does it, it sounds like no one else. It sounds like Prince doing hip hop. Same with his stabs at techno. Again, this is not an attempt to argue how successful or quality his work is-just to say he is doing it in a way thats never been done before.
[Edited 3/18/06 15:51pm]

skywalker said:

"When Doves Cry" was straight 80's synthesizer pop with a little ingredient of funk (especially the keyboard solo). The only innovative thing about it was the omission of the bass (Was Prince really the first to do that in pop? I don't know).

On the other hand, I agree with you completely on the hip hop point. Many people see the early 90's work as a sellout because he included hip hop in his music, but he created music that no one or almost no one at that time created. Who else had a track like "Love 2 the 9's" out back then? This is a completely underrated Prince period imo. I just wouldn't label it goundbreaking because the inclusion of hip hop in other musical styles (like Dance, for example) wasn't too uncommon in the early 90's.

EmancipationLover said:

Again, what is your defintion of "groundbreaking"? It sounds like you are talking about instrumentation,technical, and production wise-which, if you have read some of the books detailing Prince's production/recording/instrumentation techniques, you'd see he actually is groundbreaking in this aspect.

In any event, I think it is hard to argue that Prince isn't groundbreaking stylistically-that's because he almost always is.

Bottom Line:

I think you who are trying to argue that Prince is not groundbreaking are going to have a difficult time. Basically, you are trying to argue that Prince has not done anything original and unique ever-which is laughable, because most people who know anything about music know that that is (usually) what Prince is all about. If nothing else, Prince is viewed as being HIGHLY original and unique. Again, not for inventing new genres and techniques out of the blue, but because of HOW he chooses to go about all things musically and stylistically.
[Edited 3/18/06 15:59pm]

skywalker said:

I would label someone's work as "groundbreaking" if it really opens a completely new chapter in music, like Schoenberg's overcoming of tonality, for example. As stated, I would tend to label Kraftwerk as a groundbreaking act - they did electronic music during a period when everyone else played 10 minute long guitar solos on concept rock albums. They made the ground for synthesizer pop as well as dance and techno. I can hardly think of other single people/groups/acts who would play a similarly outstanding role in the development of pop music. Everything else was more "group work" imo. For example, I wouldn't label the Sex Pistols as groundbreaking - they played Punk, but lots of others did that too.

Maybe it's just a discussion about words - I really would label Prince "influential" anytime, I just think "groundbreaking" is a little bit too strong.

skywalker said:

I think this is a misunderstanding. Of course he was and is "original" and "unique". If that equals "groundbreaking" for you, then I have to agree that he has to be labeled "groundbreaking".

skywalker said:

That's what I mean by "groundbreaking"...and there is little in Prince's career that qualifies as such. Or should I say, there is definitely NOT enough examples of it to be used now as the main reason so many became fans, especially those who criticize Prince's current output.


These three definitions seem to belong to the word "innovative", especially since they keep using the word over and over again..lol

So, what's the definition of "innovative"?..."the introduction of something new". So what was it about Prince's music that was "new" or "never been heard before"?? Again, to individual ears, there may have been a lot, it just depends upon how much those individual ears had been exposed to before being exposed to Prince's music. But overall?...A music historian could probably list dozens upon dozens of similar-sounding examples of Prince's musical style that came long before he did. But Prince had his own unique take on what came before...and I think that's what people mistake for "groundbreaking". Cubism and Impressionism in paintings was groundbreaking...it purposefully distorted perception and broke solid visuals down into a collection of tiny, individual colors. There are basically no examples of either prior to their emergence. The same can't quite be said of Prince's music, as phenomenal as it was, and still is.



To save time, I'll go ahead and give you WDC...but even if I do that, how many OTHER songs did Prince put out at the time that fall under the catagory of "Nobody had heard anythingn like that before EVER"??...Which is my original point and question.



What was the defining aspect of the MPLS sound?...The use of synths. More specifically, the use of synths in place of real horns (I even think Jimmy Jam defined the MPLS sound that way long ago in an interview). If so, that's hardly "unique" since it was being done by others at the time as well. Like I said, Prince did it a million times better than anyone else was--he made the shit sound like rockabilly in "Delirious", for pete's sake--but that's a sign of talent, not innovation. He popularized the use of synths...he also popularized the use of "U" in place of "you", and numbers in place of words. Doesn't mean it had never been done or seen before, though. Hell, my high school yearbook is full of signatures from classmates doing the same damn thing...lol *grin*

gee this is the age old argument about Prince ain't it?

i think alot of Prince's music has been groundbreaking especially around that mid 80s period. Housequake with all that happens within that song is like nothing out there in that genre. and to this day...it sounds so fresh. it doesn't sound dated at all to me unlike 1999 which reeks of 80s pop formula - but that song itself is a unique sound as well.

even Batdance with the samples, the drum machine and that guitar solo is a definate example of a groundbreaking song. hell, the song doesn't even have a typical A-B-A-B song structure. it's all over the shop in a sense but it makes sense.

I believe that when he was younger he purposefully aimed to do things diffrent and that's why we had great albums ATWIAD and SOTT (which had a lot of str8 ahead songs on it). i think today Prince is no longer concerned with any of this groundbreaking stuff. i think he still likes to write music that is relatively esoteric but i also think that he now just writes funk tracks or rock tracks or soul tracks. he's not mixing it up anymore or as much as he used to. why that is? who knows. i guess it's cuz either he can't be bothered to "mix it up" anymore (i'm sure he still can) or he has different ideas what he should be doing with his music. he likes being popular so maybe he's writing str8forward songs intentionally.
plus the fact that he no longer surrounds himself with creative musicians like Wendy and Lisa or Sheila E. is a good barometer. today he surrounds himself with session guys that are going to do what he tells them to play. to be honest, i think he doesn't want anyone competing. it's his gig after all. another prime example of this theory is David Bowie. His 70s output is so raw while his 80s and 90s output is quite clean and polished.

at the end of the day, who cares. you either like what he's doing or you don't.

addonaBowie edit
[Edited 3/18/06 16:20pm]

"...I would tend to label Kraftwerk as a groundbreaking act - they did electronic music during a period when everyone else played 10 minute long guitar solos on concept rock albums. They made the ground for synthesizer pop as well as dance and techno..."

Right, but (excuse me for this) who ever listens to kraftwerk? I mean, yes groundbreaking is one thing, but you also need to take into account how many people are listening/paying attention. kraftwerk has a small fan base, but are they widely known? Not on the level that Prince is. Listen, I am not trying to say one must be popular to be groundbreaking (usually the popular acts are the LEAST groundbreaking). That being said, Prince has influenced a lot more people (musicians and otherwise) than kraftwerk-he's simply better known. Prince is damn near a cultural force on his own. That's ground breaking. It's the difference between a schoolyard gym class and the Olympics. You can be the most groundbreaking artist ever, but if know one sees/hears you-what's the point? I think that there needs to be some kind of cultural impact. There is no better example of this than Elvis. Was he the 1st to do that sound? No. But he brought it to the masses, and in turn changed the world. Same with The Beatles.

Milty said:

Though I agree that ATWIAD and SOTT were great, I just can't see the groundbreaking aspect in them. Innovative - o.k. But groundbreaking? It's not like that 30 or more % of people who create pop music today say "but I wanna sound like Prince on SOTT".

Please let's not go down the W & L route again. This has really been discussed a lot on this board. If you dislike his current output, that may have many reasons, but the lack of W & L for sure is the last. Or do you also dislike "Dirty Mind", "Lovesexy" and "The Gold Experience"?

icing on top of icing

I think "when doves cry" is not straight synth pop.... lol... and it does use bass, its built into the toms and the kickdrum. Just because he didn't use a bass guitar or synth doesn't mean it lacks a bassline to me...

its a song based on a tom drum pattern, and this crazy oriental keyboard riff, with wild electric guitar... it sounds like nothing that was on the radio then or since....

its dramatic!

I feel the same way about housequake (studio version), I have not heard anything that sound remotely as shocking as this mutated-into-originality james brown from another planet party groove.

I think he usually has one or two such tunes on each album. And each time he is focused on pushing another dimension of it into originality....

EmancipationLover said:

groundbreaking and innovative are pretty much the same thing aren't they?

i love all of Prince's albums (i really do - some more than others). Actually the albums you listed are prolly in my top five. but ok let's leave out W&L for the sake of this discussion...he still surrounds himself with ppl that are not "wild and loose" on their terms.
also, maybe his well spring of ideas has dried up from time to time. how do you explain an album like NPS versus something The Gold Experience from 3 years prior?

skywalker said:

I wouldn't quite agree on Elvis being groundbreaking. He was part of a movement (Rock 'n' Roll). It's just that he might have been the best of all those people and became a cultural icon. For that, he was great, but he became more a symbol of something new than he was its sole and initial creator. Or maybe he even was, but there is no real chance to prove that now. (I'm a little scared that a really fanatic Elvis fan jumps in any second and proves me wrong. )

It's all a matter of perspective what you call "groundbreaking". I think the motivation of Byron's original post (if I may try to interpret that) was to challenge those who constantly criticise Prince's recent output for not being groundbreaking anymore to think about how "groundbreaking" he actually really was and to question if they tend to glorify his past a little bit too much. It's just that I'm pretty much with him on this.

Milty said:

I think that is a complex issue on its own. One thing's for sure, the difference of TGE and NPS doesn't occur from the position of people who surrounded him. Just read Michael B.'s posts in the Associated Artists forum thread. As much as I love that incarnation of the NPG (Michael, Sonny, Tommy), they obviously never were in a W & L like position, but more paid session musicians. That doesn't mean they were without influence on him, just that they were not people who helped arranging complete songs for him like W & L. From that point of view, NPS should have been a masterpiece, because it was created around the time when Larry G. entered the Prince camp, and that man had an influence on him for sure (compared with high musical abilities).

EmancipationLover said:

Bing-fucking-go...lol

This is not to say Prince never had his "groundbreaking/innovative" moments (whichever term you desire)...but come on!..lol...I hardly think that Prince's fan base was caused by those moments. It's more romanticized, revisionist history as to what made us fans of his music to begin with...when the real reason is most likely something as simple as "It had a great beat and you could dance to it".

So... seeing as we have got the debate settled... er... not.

I think there is an argument for saying that Prince may have broken ground in some of his production techniques - one man plays and sings all and comes up with gems like Adore... vocally ground breaking no? Or just uniquely talented?

What about Bob George? Maybe... Maybe just odd as the style hardly took off in the big wide world of pop music.

Controversy has a very "housy" drum beat and bass line going for it, long before house music in its popular form arose (Im clutching at straws here perhaps).

Oh, I dunno... I do think that the merging of styles and bringing in fuck-off rock guitar solos into genres that wouldnt dream of doing that before he did is kinda ground breaking.... It happens all the time now. You could argue that if Prince never popularised it it may not have happened until such time that someone else dared try and made it popular.

I do understand the argument here. Prince hasnt really invented anything. But then who has? All music and genres are a bringing together of styles in truth, so who is really ground breaking? Are the Beatles ground breaking or did they just popularise something and bring it to the mainstream? Elvis wasnt ground breaking was he? Was Michael Jackson? Queen?

Kraftwerk? Maybe thats the closest we can find to someone almost single handedly creating a new genre - electronic music...

But who created blues? Who created Jazz? Thats where popular music started...

Im rambling...

"I wouldn't quite agree on Elvis being groundbreaking. He was part of a movement (Rock 'n' Roll)."

He WAS groundbreaking. Not because he was the 1st to do rock n' roll, but because he took all his tools and put rock n' roll in white America's face. He was part of a movement-but he was THE face of rock n' roll. His hips alone broke ground and TV standards. Cuturally he broke ground, if not sonically as well (a white man sounding "black" was groundbreaking).


"It's all a matter of perspective what you call "groundbreaking". I think the motivation of Byron's original post (if I may try to interpret that) was to challenge those who constantly criticise Prince's recent output for not being groundbreaking anymore to think about how "groundbreaking" he actually really was and to question if they tend to glorify his past a little bit too much. It's just that I'm pretty much with him on this."

I agree that people tend to glorify his past too much. They confuse Prince's initial cultural impact with his sound.

The fact is Prince was shocking when he arrived because he wasn't quite like anything people has seen before. As I said, he was/is a unique hybrid of things and totally original.

His sound was unique, but only in the sense that he put his spin on things-which made it new. Thus, the MPLS sound. The fact is, Prince is STILL doing this. He still incorporates elements of the MPLS sound-his sound. Also, albums like "The Rainbow Children", "The Truth", and "NEWS" can all be considered groundbreaking in terms of what Prince has done.

All in all, I think it's abit like Star Wars. The sequels, were never going to have the culutural impact that the original did in 1977. People had had the experience already. However, in terms of special effects, story ideas, and technical achievments each new movie was groundbreaking.

Prince is never going to hit people the way he did in the 80's- that's not because of the quality of his work, but because of society/fans and what they have experienced.

Byron said:

Agreed.

Rebeljuice said:

That's pretty close to my point, I think. While I wouldn't label Prince "groundbreaking", I wouldn't do that for most other people in pop music either.

Even Kraftwerk just translated the idea of electronic music into pop. Electronic music was largely a product of the art music of the 1950's with people like Stockhausen on the forefront. Those guys made electronic music with sinus generators and shit.

Anyway, Prince rocks. If it's just "innovative" or even "groundbreaking", one thing is for sure. He can set a stage on fire.

Byron said:

I became attracted to Prince due to "Cream". So groundbreaking, it almost was a musical earthquake... LOL

i havent heard 3121 yet
but from the wide variety of fan comments and reviews i've read
it seems to me he's tried to copy artists he's heard
on the www