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PrintableA lot of genuinely groundbreaking songs have been sort of "prototype" songs for styles to come and improve on them. And frankly speaking a lot of that stuff has often been clumsy and not terribly memorable songwriting-wise. Sure, Prince didn't invent drum'n'bass -music, but you have to remember that there has always been a "Prince"-sound that is referred to more than often. People describe a lot of artists today to have "prince-sounding" songs on their albums - now how on Earth would that be possible if Prince didn't come up with his own sound? That is distinctively his own? Isn't a distinctive sound the very definition of "innovation" or being "groundbreaking" if you put some serious thought into it. Yeah, I guess people also could be always wrong with their descriptions, of course.
A lot has been written about Hendrix's use of the electric guitar and how he revolutionized rock music with that, but you can be sure someone else would have thought of cranking up the amps all the way to eleven sooner or later. In fact there did exist a great number of acts who had done that years before Hendrix, Velvet Underground being one of the best known. But then again, even that band's use of dissonance and cacophony was greatly influenced by the music of Ornette Coleman or Coltrane. So it's really hard to draw lines at "genuine originality" - there always exists myriad ways to criticize everyone's approach and just simply make the claim that "it's not true originality, true originality is something else than that! (and you don't know what it is, but I do and I'm not tellin'!)". Believe me, I've seen enough of that talk on some of the other websites I frequent. And none of it makes much sense to me after several years of being forced to read that crap. Think about a song like "Sexual Suicide". For it to be truly "ground-breaking-new-direction" -song some people would no doubt try to make the claim that it should have influenced a whole new generation of musicians like Hendrix allegedly did with his use of the electric guitar. But are you really expecting the radio to be all of a sudden filled with pop songs with a baritone sax quartet all over them? Should a whole new genre inevitably have spawned because of "Sexual Suicide"= And if Hendrix really was groundbreaking, on how many songs of his did he really challenge himself? Or was he just being groundbreaking on some of his earlier songs and then just use that same old "groundbreaking" formula to make his later compositions? I think this "groundbreaking"/"experimental"/"genuinely new"-thing reeks of a negative ad hoc-category that people just use to cast negative opinions on something they want to feel superior over. Everything is a synthesis of things that has preceded the current time frame and that's inescapable. The rest is just accomplished by revisionist writing of history. | |
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After God made Prince, she destroyed the mold.
I will say we are judging him by some different standards today, its more difficult to be groundbreaking these days and almost useless to try. Around 91 people were throwing every type of music together(funk, hiphop, rap, rock), alt rock bands like Faith No More, etc..were pushing. But in 84-87 music was more limited. Take a look at all the categories of music we have now and new ones are created yearly! Take a listen to what was around during the Controversy era and what he was playing. Same with Purple Rain - by todays standard the recording may not be as groundbreaking as it was back in the day but at the time no one heard anything as good as that..it was like Star Wars. If you wanna be groundbreaking today, go out in the alley way roll around on glass scream and smash on garbage cans and get someone to mix your recording.. You see its good the focus is on good songs not groundbreaking. At times in music (rap, alt rock, hip hop, pop) style became everything and good songs became #2. Prince always has some good songs thats why he still has our ears. | |
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 [Edited 3/19/06 7:40am]  | |
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Novabreaker said: Byron said: "The Continental" is groundbreaking???...lol... Still to this day I haven't heard another song with a melodic structure quite like "The Continental". It's truly a unique composition, even though you wouldn't realize it on the first listening. Plus the sample that he also recycled for "Race" is so otherworldy weird and displaced in a song like this that it alone should be noteworthy. "Forever In My Life"??...
And how many songs have you heard where a totally misplaced backing vocal line has been left in the mix? That is one form of innovation, like it or not. "Sometimes It Snows In April"??!!...
Prince's use of "wrong chords" in this song is quie unique. The way he handles chromatic voicings is very daring and sophisticated in a way I haven't heard any other artist accomplish. "Pussy freakin' Control"!!!
Very unique soundscapes. Prince's use of intentionally clumsy synthesized elements juxtaposed with the song's references to 90s hip-hop are very witty. | |
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Again, I think you're confusing talent with groundbreaking...a diverse mixture of musical styles on one album is not groundbreaking, no matter how well it's executed. It just isn't." Again, we must agree on a definition of what "groundbreaking" means. I already gave you the dictionary definition- Prince easily meets it in several aspects. Also, you ignored the reasoning I gave you that he IS groundbreakng. each song on it's own is not VASTLY groundbreaking (although one could easily argue that Prince's studio techniques are/were groundbreaking- we already have quotes from engineers saying so). Look at these songs and consider the fact they all came from the same guy. Again- that is groundbreaking, unique, etc. Also, I continue to maintain that your argument it very weak. The planet recognizes Prince as an innovator in the music world. It's difficult to argue otherwise-try as you may. "New Power slide...." |
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Byron said: Probably THE most often heard (read?..lol) complaint is that "Prince isn't breaking any new ground with (fill in the blank)"...that he's not "pushing the envelope on this CD"...etc, etc.
I personally don't believe that Prince has ever broken new ground, given us something we've never heard before...and has rarely pushed the envelope musically. My own viewpoint has always been that what made 99% of people Prince fans is his ability to concoct ridiculously catchy and infectious melodies that are coupled with insanely dancable beats and a cool and charismatic vocal delivery...as well as showcasing some incredible musicianship. That's one helluva combination, and one helluva rare one in pop music...so rare that my view has always been that's a huge reason why he remains so irreplacable in many fans' minds and hearts. But none of that is about "breaking new ground" or "pushing the envelope" musically. That he seemlessly adds hints of several genres to the mix was the icing, as well as the sign of genius. That he was able to do it so consistently year after year, album after album, was the icing, as well as the sign of genius. Anyone can (theoretically) do it once...to do it seven times in a row is a sign of something else. But again...qualities of groundbreaking and envelope-pushing, at least in my mind, really didn't play too much of a role as to why the majority of Prince fans became Prince fans to begin with. My theory is that Prince's "sound" was somewhat new to the pop music scene when he first arrived...and definitely was new to individual listeners. I was in college in Indiana when Prince first hit it big...a lot of people hearing his music in Indiana may have felt it was groundbreaking and innovative, but at the same time a lot of people in Indiana didn't know Prince from Freddy Prinze (literally, I mean that), and thought my Walkman was a hearing aid at the time (again, literally)...lol...so, no offense to Indiana, but just because it was considered "groundbreaking and innovative" to their ears didn't really mean much. Maybe a lot of Prince fans are similar...that just because his music seemed "different" to their indivudial ears, doesn't mean it was groundbreaking and envelope-pushing...it may just mean that not too many pop music lovers were exposed to a lot of various musical types and genres. So I was thinking...what are the best examples of Prince being truly "groundbreaking", "innovative" and "pushing the envelope"??... Just so you know where I stand, I don't consider leaving the bass line out of "When Doves Cry" to be groundbreaking or innovative...I also don't consider using a synth where you would normally hear real horns to be innovative, either. In my mind, Prince brought the use of a synthesizer in pop music to new heights through his amazing musicianship. In other words, his use of the synth was lightyears better than the stuff you'd hear on an Asia or Loverboy album at the time...lol...but was it anymore groundbreaking? Not really, no. Just much, MUCH better performed and played. His use of a drum machine probably falls closer to groundbreaking in my eyes (or maybe I mean "innovative" moreso than groundbreaking)... Anyhoo.. Give examples of truly groundbreaking, unique, pushing-the-envelope songs in Prince's career...I guess I just want to get an idea of what fans mean when they use these terms to explain why they became fans.  Groundbreaking? well it depends how much you wanna split hairs on this, I think I would have to define groundbreaking as something that made you stop and go "what the hell was that" something that at the time of release was so far away from what anyone else was even thinking of attempting that you knew this man was seriously groundbreaking - no Prince didnt invent an instrument or discover a sound from outer space, but he made music that was a departure from what anybody else would have been brave enough to even utter in a darkened room alone. From my personal point of view Prince made me genuinely stop and do a tripple take at Kiss, Girls and Boys, Mountains, and then definately stunned me with Sign o the Times ( the track) If I was your Girfriend and with Gett Off. Nothing after 1991 made me feel that way with the exception of maybe "The War" and " The Truth". If you are looking for someone to give you an example of where he invented a new sound (I mean sound not form of music) then sorry not gonna happen. But as a composer he made me realise at a point in the mid 80s that he was in a different place to anything in the 1500 plus records I had in my collection at the time. | |
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Groundbreaking? Name another artist who:
Put four seconds of silence on a disc that also included a commercial and a "segue" that was more likely a mistake in track separation. Has taken such a firm stand against funky, funky blue cheese. Uses such terrible art on their recent album covers. Claims that four 14-minute boring departures into elevator music hell qualifies as "new directions in music." Claimed to be number one at the bank when he actually was holding garage sales to cover his overhead. Has made brilliant music while suffering from a club foot, deafness, homosexual tendencies, and a dual personality. Can play a song as boring as Soulpsychodelicide for an hour straight. Nobody!!! "Drop that stereo before I blow your Goddamn nuts off, asshole!"
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To be able to have a true spiritual (to seperate it from a religious one) transformed into his own definition of funk..ie. Lovesexy...i think that was groundbreaking...and the hightlight of his carreer.
To have the cold synth, the hard and hot lyrics and funky beats in Dirty Mind..that was groundbreaking; his carreer started here. To have 3 hours of music in a broad range...on one album..ie Emancipation..that was groundbreaking... Should i continue? | |
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"Ground-breaking" - It's a difficult one to pin down because everything comes from somewhere, you know?
You can say 'oh such and such is ground-breaking', and then someone else will say 'ahhh, but he got that from here, with a little bit from there, and a splash of the other one'. | |
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KingSausage said: Groundbreaking? Name another artist who:
Put four seconds of silence on a disc that also included a commercial and a "segue" that was more likely a mistake in track separation. Has taken such a firm stand against funky, funky blue cheese. Uses such terrible art on their recent album covers. Claims that four 14-minute boring departures into elevator music hell qualifies as "new directions in music." Claimed to be number one at the bank when he actually was holding garage sales to cover his overhead. Has made brilliant music while suffering from a club foot, deafness, homosexual tendencies, and a dual personality. Can play a song as boring as Soulpsychodelicide for an hour straight. Nobody!!!  [Edited 3/19/06 11:43am] My art book: http://www.lulu.com/spotl...ecomicskid
VIDEO WORK: http://sharadkantpatel.com MUSIC: https://soundcloud.com/ufoclub1977 | |
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ufoclub said: I think "when doves cry" is not straight synth pop.... lol... and it does use bass, its built into the toms and the kickdrum. Just because he didn't use a bass guitar or synth doesn't mean it lacks a bassline to me...
its a song based on a tom drum pattern, and this crazy oriental keyboard riff, with wild electric guitar... it sounds like nothing that was on the radio then or since.... its dramatic! I feel the same way about housequake (studio version), I have not heard anything that sound remotely as shocking as this mutated-into-originality james brown from another planet party groove. I think he usually has one or two such tunes on each album. And each time he is focused on pushing another dimension of it into originality.... Those are two great examples of Prince's innovation on the pop scene: Housequake and Doves....When I first heard both those songs they sounded so completely strange to me. The song "Lovesexy" is another one..."Kiss" is another one. In recent times, "Joint 2 Joint" is Prince stretching himself... I can't think of anything since that song that has been truly innovative musically by him....but that doesn't mean I don't love 3121, his most listenable album, track for track, in years. | |
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I would say: "If I Was YOur girlfriend" for its texture and fx... "Batdance" is a very off-the-cuff wild and schizophrenic single to have hit number one... "Slave"... "Come On".... "Illusion Coma " has an addictive use of this eastern key chorus that stands out....
BOB GEORGE... that has impressed so many creative friends of mine with it's narrative, production, and complete "character" disguise. switters said: ufoclub said: I think "when doves cry" is not straight synth pop.... lol... and it does use bass, its built into the toms and the kickdrum. Just because he didn't use a bass guitar or synth doesn't mean it lacks a bassline to me...
its a song based on a tom drum pattern, and this crazy oriental keyboard riff, with wild electric guitar... it sounds like nothing that was on the radio then or since.... its dramatic! I feel the same way about housequake (studio version), I have not heard anything that sound remotely as shocking as this mutated-into-originality james brown from another planet party groove. I think he usually has one or two such tunes on each album. And each time he is focused on pushing another dimension of it into originality.... Those are two great examples of Prince's innovation on the pop scene: Housequake and Doves....When I first heard both those songs they sounded so completely strange to me. The song "Lovesexy" is another one..."Kiss" is another one. In recent times, "Joint 2 Joint" is Prince stretching himself... I can't think of anything since that song that has been truly innovative musically by him....but that doesn't mean I don't love 3121, his most listenable album, track for track, in years. My art book: http://www.lulu.com/spotl...ecomicskid
VIDEO WORK: http://sharadkantpatel.com MUSIC: https://soundcloud.com/ufoclub1977 | |
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KingSausage said: Groundbreaking? Name another artist who:
Has taken such a firm stand against funky, funky blue cheese. Nobody!!! Hilarious. But seriously, Prince broke ground all over the place. He exploded all the preconceptions of what black music is supposed to sound like, what white music is supposed to sound like, how much sex you can put into ballads, how much religion you can put into party jams, how much bikini brief you can fit on a tiny tiny man. In the 80s he and Michael Jackson de-segregated radio playlists across America, and it was a thrilling crossover spectacle. But then in the 90s with the emergence of hip hop, the racial divide became more pronounced again, and also the gender divide (hip hop emphasizes the differences between men and women), which sorta left behind these two androgynous titans. It's plain to me why Prince could never quite incorporate rap music into his oeuvre. Prince music is all about blending, fusing, mixing disparate elements. Rap is about distinctions, separations, boundaries. In fact, you could argue that hip hop was a direct response to Prince/MJ brand of music. | |
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