i always wonderd.when he goes into long guitar jams,most of his improvisation sounds like he rehearsed it.i never heard him playing bad solo(only on fly away from rave dvd )
so could it be that just my imagination guitar solo wasnt improvised but very well rehearsed???

If I had to guess, I'd say that he's been doing this so long and so well that his improv appears rehearsed when in fact it is NOT.

As good as he is, he still only has a handful of "signature" guitar sounds that he seems to fall back on. I think that's why you think it's rehearsed, but it's just his style.

Wasn't it George Clinton who said "He even practises his spontaneity"?

Most guitarists, pratice by running scales, among other pratice techinques.

They also pratice within a scale. They often create patterns they like that will become songs or some form of reputition in pratice.

improvised, yes, but also mostlikely been playing in his mind.

Listen to his solo on my guitar gently weeps at the rock and roll hall of fame, then judge for yourself

I've studied Prince's guitar style a lot.

He most definitely improvises, but he has some definite trademarks which have been well practised too, mostly in the left hand. He utilizes a good combination of blues pentatonic, chromatic and modes, much like Hendrix, but more precise and often more busy, though not as busy as some like Vai of course.

i don't know what to think.

JPW said:

Um, no.

Prince has rarely improvised in his time as a guitar player.

For example, you can clearly tell in the JB,MJ tape that Prince improvised.

He has not been on stage and traded licks with any other guitarist.
He rarely plays blues or jazz, styles that call for improvised solos.

WTF, does more busy mean. LOL

What did you study?

Prince is no diff than any other player: He steals licks and plays them at a diff tempo or combination and is a constant knob turner with a bright sustaining tone.

workingupahiyellasweat said:

Ok clearly you are not a musician, so I'll go easy on ya.

Improvisation does not mean only in the idiom of blues riffs and swapping lines.... or even playing just what comes off the top of your head. It is spontaneous composition, therefore one usually draws on prior musical knowledge in order to compose on the spot.

In other words, improvisation is taking certain musical knowledge and then creating something new with the parts, spontaneously.

So UM, YES, Prince DOES definitely do this.

Sorry, but I play music for a living and Prince is very precise, but not entirely rehearsed.

Here's an example: Compare the SNL Fury to that of the Brit Awards. NOT THE SAME. Do you think he rehearses different solos for songs? NOPE. He has a basic structure and certain modes which he sticks to for the tonality of the song, but he plays around those chords and modes with ad libs. In other words he IMPROVISES.

As for playing blues, you mustn't have seen a lot of live Prince cause he's quite partial to sticking blues numbers in there! Just because he's not into "trading fours" and stuff, doesn't mean he rehearses every note!

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[Edited 2/25/06 18:18pm]

JPW said:

well no, price definitely does NOT rehearse, cause he doesnt need to ! - and i am not a musician!

OzlemUcucu said:

where do you people come up with this stuff? i'm not taking the bait...i have plenty of prince rehearsals. silly people.

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[Edited 2/25/06 18:25pm]

JPW said:

Oh fuck, maybe he is rehearsing, cause he wants to play and have some fun with his guitar, but he doesnt need to , cause u listen to him anyway! OR did u have intentions of licking his guitar?
[Edited 2/25/06 18:29pm]

JPW said:

Thank you for being so patient with my fellow Orgers.

As you say, Prince does improvise and certainly does rehearse. In some cases, some of what looked improvised was not, but rather rehearsed and then cued or played in a more or less spontaneous fashion (I'm thinking of the concert he gave at the Montreal Jazz Festival).

every band, artist or watever no matter what their vocation is rehearses, u would b plain old stupid not 2!
That is where he would come up with a little lick or sumthin work on it afta and turn it into a quick improv solo or watever. Bands do it all the time, if u dont rehearse then ur not going 2 b on time with the other band members etc

JPW said:

I think non-musicians have a misunderstanding of the term "improvisation". To make something up completely original and on the spot without any context is almost impossible. That would be like someone asking your to paint a photo-realistic painting of something you've never seen before and with your eyes closed!

All the great improvisers of our time have a deep understanding of music theory (scales, chords, harmonic progression etc.). They also have a great understanding of the musical style they are playing (jazz, funk, classical etc.). They also have thousands of licks/riffs (consiously or unconsiously) in their head that they are ready to draw from as inspiration. Improvisation then is like putting a jig-saw together where you get to choose which piece goes where. It may seem like a daunting process, but like anything, with practice improvisation isn't that complicated.

Prince most definately improvises!

toejam said:

Preach. -Mg

JPW said:

WOW

I don't care if you play a bag pipe with your butt hole, everything about Prince is rehearsed and it is documented.

Prince even practices his facial expressions for soloing, etc. Let's get things in perspective, Prince is about image just as much as he is about music. He picked a guitar becasue it was pretty.

What Prince does is called soloing, not improvising. Prince is too scared to trade licks with anynone and even be on stage with other guitar players besides his lackeys or some blow off like Lenny. Prince was intimated by Dez and Andre, and stole so much from them during those times, Im pretty sure Prince sends them roalty checks.


There was nothing improvised about Prince's RRHOF solo. Everything was pre-planned and pre written as everything he does. From his name change to the release date for 3121 two years ago. From him now throwing his guitars around like a clown at a circus. It would be cool if it was not planned.

Does Prince improvise, sure but not alot.

He improvised more in his younger days, his playing was far more sloppy and spontaneous in his youth. Now, Prince's playing has turned into a SNL mockery of himself.

Well at least he is learning how to use the whammy bar with the worst of them, specially with those looped effects he is using these days.


Everything about Prince is calculated, his playing is getting so stale and predictable these days becasue he is not that great of an improve player, and he isolates himself from other guitar players.


There are several reason why Prince is not respected as a guitar player, and this is one of them.

There is a reason kids are not out trying to capture what Prince does on guitar becasue his tone is never consistent, and his best solos are not even played or written by him. His lead playing is suspect, and his rhythm guitar abilities are far superior to his lead ablities. And even with that his rhythm abilities are not all that phenomonial.

Prince will never release a guitar driven album, becasue he can't. He surrounds himself with lesser skilled muscians. Andre and Dez are not around to remind Prince that he needs to approach things a lil different.

Even L. Hill put out a guitar driven CD and DVD and she only knows 5 chords.

Everything about Prince is calculated, from him going out to search for the next Emeniem, to him now looking for the his Badu/Angie Stone. From him saying the exact same things at every concert, and telling the exact same jokes to his new Ike and Tina Turner revue.


Prince is like Jay Z to Nas when it comes to playing lead guitar.


By the time you read this, I bet Prince will be playing Let's Go Crazy/followed by Purple Rain. And his solo for Purple Rain will still be played in it's orignal key and tempo.


Now go play your flute, and don't forget to polish up when your finished.


Now, go practice and study some real players, son.

workingupahiyellasweat said:

I agree with about 80% of this but to say that Prince is lacking in guitar skills is a bit over the top. -Mg

Shit. And I thought we were all supposed to loveoneanother on this site... that's what I've been told!

Improvise - yes.
Technicalities.... come on. How much do you want the guy to do?

Graycap23 said:

Sorry dudes, you're way off.

Rehearsals are in, obviously, but Prince is totally an improviser as well as a rehearsed musician.



I have nothing more to say, except this:

Graycap I have played music my whole damn life, since I was six and I am now 27 and playing full-time with seasoned musicians. I WENT to a music school for Chrissakes. I'm sorry that you feel so strongly about being so completely WRONG and you should think twice before condescending to someone on a website who you have no actual idea about as a person let alone in this case an actual musician who plays a number of instruments well himself. Prince is WELL REHEARSED, that much is clear, but he also can IMPROVISE very well, too. He DOES tend to rely on certain things, that much is also clear, but he also throws in a lot spontaneity, especially live. See two shows back to back and you'll see it's not totally by the book each time.



What you have said about his rhythm vs. his lead is just insane, by the way. Prince is an excellent lead player who definitely goes for however he is feeling at the time... and if you can't hear that, clean your ears out and listen to what his LEFT HAND is doing, if you want to get technical. You're not really listening apparently... every single thing you have said here is just incorrect and that's not opinion, that's a fact which, I'm sorry dude, I will not debate any further. I'm pretty sure you're baiting me here anyway.

Put a fork in this one, it's done.

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[Edited 2/26/06 0:42am]

thebanishedone said:

Nah - Im sure tehre are bit improvised but his jams are from a selection he has and seems to recycle....how many times have I heard teh end of Live 4 Love (live) tagged onto the end of other songs etc.

But hen again, im sure there are improvisations that just come narurally to you in the spur of teh moment and,if you've palyed it before, it works AND it come sto you...why not?!

JPW said:

Man and people call me a know it all ass but you take it to a new level.

workingupahiyellasweat said:

I wanted to write something in response to this, but there is so much wrongness, I don't know where to start.

lovemachine said:

Thanks, nice compliment. Just had to set the guy straight with his "son" shtick and all.



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[Edited 2/26/06 3:38am]

improvise
One entry found for improvise.


Main Entry: im·pro·vise
Pronunciation: 'im-pr&-"vIz also "im-pr&-'
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -vised; -vis·ing
Etymology: French improviser, from Italian improvvisare, from improvviso sudden, from Latin improvisus, literally, unforeseen, from in- + provisus, past participle of providEre to see ahead -- more at PROVIDE
transitive senses
1 : to compose, recite, play, or sing extemporaneously
2 : to make, invent, or arrange offhand
3 : to fabricate out of what is conveniently on hand
intransitive senses : to improvise something
- im·pro·vis·er or im·pro·vi·sor /-"vI-z&r, -'vI-/ noun

By this definition, yes, Prince improvises. He does not write something entirely new on the spot (except maybe for some open jamming with the band at PP a few years back). He performs a solo at the predetermined point in the song according to the song's strucure. He bases the notes off of the main melody or theme and plays variations on that theme, but within the confines of the song.

During rehearsals he and the band may determine the arrangement of the song and know who will solo when and for how many bars. But if he's playing Purple Rain, he's going to do a solo based on that theme, not compose something entirely new. The difference from one performance to another may not be that striking if you are listening casually and you will hear similar patterns or licks from one performance to another. Some of that may come from the fact that he's done the solo so many times before and some is "baked in" to his style.

In classical music, say a piano concerto, there is usually a section at the end of the first movement (sometimes others) called a cadenza. This was often a section where the performer was expected to improvise on the main thematic material of the piece while the orchestra waited. The composer did not write down the notes to be played, so the performer had to make them up -- either on the spot, or they may have taken the time to plan out what they were going to do. Over time the composer (or others) began to actually write out the notes the performer was to play. In some cases (Beethoven's 1st piano concerto comes to mind) several different cadenzas were written out. No matter who plays the piece now, the notes of the cadenza will be the same. But this is MUCH more structured than what Prince does from night to night when performing.

So, yes, Prince's improvisation really is improvised. I think you are disagreeing on the degree to which that improvisation takes place. On tour, performing a choreographed show that needs to synch with lights and effects and wrap up by a certain time, it is very much rehearsed so everyone has the timing down, Prince has to hit marks so the lighting guys know where to find him, etc. The constraints may be a little tighter, but he still has and takes liberty with the notes of his solo.

workingupahiyellasweat said:

LOL

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, nor do you actually listen to the way P plays.

Improvisation is not too big a deal.. anyone who knows some basic music theory can do it. It would actually take a whole lot more effort to practise a solo note for note and play it exactly the same way again and again. Since P does often play his solo's differently, he would have to re-practice it everytime he's going to perform it.

For example, in the '80s P used to play 'just my imagination' a lot on his aftershows. I've heard several versions, and each version features a differently played solo with a different sound.

Just have a listen to some of his live performances, and you'll see what we mean

HalluRain said:

Man, and I was told I was getting anal! I've been usurped! All the above is true of course, but wow. Nice post... this is prince.org though, not the Conservatorium. This kind of info is welcome though in my opinion.





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[Edited 2/26/06 5:16am]

JPW said:

You say that as if it's a bad thing!

It's way too early on a Sunday morning, I've thrown my back out and there's nothing but infomercials on TV. I've got time on my hands!

HalluRain said:

I really was trying to let you know it was appreciated. Folks sometimes like to bring you down a notch for claiming to know something 'round these here parts y'see.