WildheartXXX said:

This is the whole problem with NPGMC. I live in the uk so theres no point in me paying 100 dollars just for 4 CD's as I cant make the concerts.

This is why I didnt join NPGMC this year, I knew I would get the CD's by other means (either downloading or purchasing).

One last go-around..lol.. (which is ALWAYS enjoyable with you, Abrazo, cuz at least you challenge me to back up my views, instead of just calling me an asskisser for having them..lol)

Abrazo said:

I never said that...what I said was that the consumer pays in advance for an "array of exclusive experiences"...tell me this, Abrazo...what if all 4 CDs are indeed exclusive??...and then there's a 5th CD sent to club members, a CD that WILL end up in retail 3-4 months later??...Would the NPGMC still be negligent in providing services promised??...If so, then what you're saying is that everything the club members get can NOT be made availalble, even if what they recieve is above and beyond what the members were expecting for their money...that ANYTHING Prince puts out during the 12 month period MUST ONLY go to club members or else the music club has reneged on their promise, even if they DO deliver on 4 exclusive CDs and all the rest...

And if NOT, then what you're saying is that not all products and services that club members recieve need to be exclusive for the music club to live up to the wording of the contract...

Which is it??..lol


When talk turns to things like "Prince is ripping off his club members!!...The NPGMC is misleading people!!", then you HAVE to think like a lawyer...because individual perceptions stop mattering...at that point, you go and look at what was ACTUALLY said, NOT what was alluded to or vaguely hinted at...


Those reasons, though, are probably not due to interaction with the music club, but interaction with other members beforehand, because of a bunch of us yakking it up on here...NOT because the NPGMC led us to these conclusions, we led each other to them...let's face it, this whole discussion we're having now is only taking place because of something said on here..lol.. The NPGMC hasn't said anything about ONA going to stores, yet here we are discussing whether or not the music club has reneged on it's "promises"..lol...

And you know what else??..if ONA does NOT get released to stores, we'll all be saying "Prince and the music club must have read our posts, and realized they were screwing us over big time and changed their minds!"...lol...we place SOOO much on what we tell and voice to each other on here when it comes to the club, that we don't bother to actually pay attention to the very words the club says itself..





???...How can it be both "too vague" AND be informative enough at the same time??..lol...if it's too vague, then it's always been too vague, the fault of not realizing it lies with the consumer...if it's always been informative enough, then the fault with not understanding what information exactly is being provided STILL lies with the consumer...


Once again...was it too vague(as you're saying here), or was there enough information to determine the services and products sold??(which is what you said up above, that they THOUGHT they're was enough)...to me, it's either/or...and if there WAS enough info, then screw all this talk about "they were too vague!!"..lol...

Abrazo, I think I can sum up all this by putting it this way...there is the intent of the law, and there is the letter of the law...you are a champion of the "intent" of the "law" of the npgmc's advertisements...as where I am a champion of the "letter" of the "law" of their advertisements...to you, the intent was to purposefully get people to believe that every note of music Prince releases thru the music club would be exclusive to music club members...to me, the actual words used-the "letter of the law"--never specifies enough about what the "exclusiveness" consists of, only that there will be exclusive content for members throughout the club year...

...could I have fucked up anymore than this..??..lol
[This message was edited Wed Jul 10 16:28:51 PDT 2002 by wellbeyond]

Wow. Wellbeyond has been busy up in this joint!

let me share a lil personal experience to you all..food for thought.

I worked as a sales manager for Cingular Wireless...prior to launching I attended many seminars and think tanks...One of the key marketing points was to be as vauge as possible yet legally correct pertaining to signal coverage issues. All marketing was approved by SBC (Fortune 50) and Cingular (Fortune 150) lawyers and marketing dispursed for consumer view...

Well, low and behold, this month the CPUC has announced plans to sue Cingular for false advertisement..Even though the company spelled out in clear print (on all ads, collateral and newspaper ads) the fact that coverage was *not* promised through-out the entire country, the CPUC feels that the marketing collateral *mislead* the public to think that coverage was entire...


just food for thought...

SkletonKee said:

Don't be surprised if, no matter what the result is of this case, it gets overturned in appeals..lol...that happens so much in cases like this(going both ways, too), it's scary..

But it does go to show that yes, using "vague" terms is amazingly commonplace in businesses...the npgmc is not alone in this...and I, for one, never expected them to act any different...it's a bidniz, for pete's sake!..lol

wellbeyond said:

oops..i forgot to mention, guess what Cingular is now doing to make peace? to save face? you all didnt hear this from me but, allegedly they are offering two months free service to keep their clients happy...

now, if Cingular understands the importance of customer service...and correcting a wrong, I wonder what NPGMC is going to do to make peace...


btw: if anyone tries to call Cingular and complain about service and mention the CPUC lawsuit in an attempt to get free service...*U DIDNT HEAR IT FROM ME!!!*...and im just relying an alleged policy..I am not representing Cingular Wireless, SBC or any other of its affilates...Nor do I stand behind any alligations made in any of my posts past, present and future...

(see, is it that hard to be specific? why cant NPGMC understand that?)

SkletonKee said:

"Make peace" for WHAT, though??..lol...They haven't DONE anything!!...lol...ONA is not in stores...the npgmc hasn't sent around an email saying it was...AND they DO say in fact that you will hear these CDs "first", not "exclusively"...

I actually hope someone attempts to sue the npgmc if ONA is released to retail...lol...would settle quite a bit around here...

wellbeyond said:

Glad to see you are back in form...

wellbeyond said:

Well... the least they could do is give us two free months of waiting for another disc to come out!

:LOL:

wellbeyond said:

well, isnt the whole point of the thread that people feel mislead? now, im not saying npgmc should spend time on anything..but i do think that as a courtesy they might want to clarify the situation for people...possibly send out an email clearing up any confusion..that *would* be the respectful thing to do... not for you, who believe your getting everything your heart desired out of the club..but for all the folks who feel they were mislead..

you are right though, this is all contingent on the fact that ONA *does* hit the record stores..if that doesnt happen, well, then this was just a nice lil debate that allowed people to bring back whats great about the org...*debate*...

IceNine said:

oh yeah...release the next disc at the same time ONA is released to record stores...that would keep everybody distracted..

BTW: has anyone even emailed NPGMC and recieved a responce...id be real interested in what the $10 an hour reps over at NPGMC have to say about all this...

NPG MUUUsic CLUB HAD IT FIRST...YEAH, YEAH, YEAH, YEAH, YEAH...

No, no, no...
Tho' I many times also enjoy a debate with you, this last post was a bit too much, sorry if I am going to offend you in anyway...lol

SIGH...

Wellbeyond man...

WHY do you take only minor quotes of what i said and then turn the entire situation upside down again?
That was not cool man. Now you quoted me and you took only about one or two sentences of the hundreds i have written,and leave all the rest that i said out, showing no sign at all if any of what i said really got through to you...

That is exactly what you shouldn't have done, yet you have done it...lol

SIGH...

Really.

But I will try one more last time...I have high hopes this time it will work...
But before I do, let me ask you this...: Am i explaining you this matter in way you have trouble with? i mean do you have trouble finding logic and meaning in my posts?
Seriously, no pun intended...
I am sure you do understand what I am saying since you are a very smart guy, but please read back and realise what this is all about. Because the way you responded doesn't show me a clear sign that you actually did understand what I said.

wellbeyond said:

There you go responding to only a part of what I said and then basically take it out of context again as if I never acknowledge the "array of exclusive experiences" which I will however show to be not worth as much as you are seemingly trying to say.

Now that you took away the context of my explanation, without the further explanation that i gave WHY it could very well be seen as an exclusive musc club, you are basically forcing me to bring back the entire advertisement again.
i will show you that the offer that is/was made is meant beexclusive ...
Because of the way that the Club offers its service --> exclusive "acces" to music cd's and concertperks (perhabs downloads and merchandise)

I know I have done that before already and the add is also posted on this thread and like I repeatedly said, in my opinion, it gives every reason to conclude, for any average consumer/fan, that the music club is fully exclusive, at the very minumum when we are talking about the cd's. The concerts are a slightly different matter and the rules are furhter explained on the site, but are nevertheless also exclusive to members.

This whole entire music club is based on that one single idea: Exclusivity

The entire formal legal agreement backing up the adds and promotion on the site is completely based on the concept of an exclusive music/concert/merchandise club.

The adds on the website are the next source of most valuable information concerning the conclusion I will be amking that what is offered exactly by the Club has a very broad excluive character to it. At least for year 2 of the Club, since it is all annual memeberships we are talking about there.

The adds are the part of the site fans/consumers will mainly see and respond their actions to, because that is what draws their main attention. They see it, usually think about it for a while and choose for it... or not. Only few really look at the formal legal agreement, but in this case it makes it just as clear that we are dealing with an exclusive music club here.

The wordings of the adds however do not make it perfectlyclear if the club is really completely exclusive... or not.

However, they use the word 'exclusive' and many other important terms in direct connection to the services (music + concerts) offered.

see:

[by capitalising I'm showing the importance of the words highighted...]

By JOINING --> Thus you HAVE to join to get acces

you WILL BE --> this is a form of guarantee

GIVEN ACCES to --> this is what the club is basically doing:providing you with acces to their services. That is what it is all about, ACCES to an exclusive club which requires acces permission, which is ONLY giving by handing over 100$. Making it EXCLUSIVE.


an EXCLUSIVE --> There it is...THE most important term in the entire offer. Exclusive normally always means nothing less than that it is, in this case, MEMBERS ONLY.
Now the important thing is that the word 'exclusive' is connected to what follows...

array of new experiences --> These terms themselves are not that important. because it basically says nothing more than that which will exclusively be given acces to is an 'array of new experiences'...Well WHAT does this array consist of then?
To know whatever that vague 'array' of new experiences may mean we have to read on...

from PRINCE and the NPG --> thus no acces to other artists is given in the experience


INCLUDING this would mean that the list that now follows is NOT exhaustive and COULD hold therefore more unexpressed promisses in the form of surprises, from which don't know of yet. This thus is also an incentive for the consumer to buy...


NEW --> thus NO rehashed material, which was basically a little bit the case ONLY for the members from last and this year concerning half of ONA. So some may already have a problem with the club.


UNRELEASED --> Again ONA failed a little bit in that perspective concerning fans who also joined last year. But this does guarantee that what is released will not have been released before. Thus no rehash.


PRINCE CD'S --> so it WILL include Prince CD'S like ONA, the cd in dispute...


LIVE EVENTS --> that would include aftershows and soundchecks as well as concert acces.
as far as it is right now, only on the American continent and not worldwide as the club is also promoted.

SPECIAL MERCHANDISE ITEMS --> acces to the oppurtunity of buying TRC coffeemugs for 15$

CONCERT DEALS --> see above LIVE EVENTS, however so far only in America.

AND MUCH MORE --> well why not... yet another incentive to join this EXCLUSIVE MUSIC club.



Well what else does one need to know? Doesn't it clearly say that the exclusive new array of experiences include the music cd's as well? And isn't it logical then that the average consumer would expect this to be so?
So that he won't have to walk into the recordstore a while after the release and find it cheaply priced for everybody to buy?

Any average reasonable thinking consumer would therefore reasonably expect that the cd's he gets are exclusive. at least for this year 2 of the music club. That is what the entire club is about. That is the whole picture.





The first one.
Really brotherman... what is offered is exclusive acces to basically all the stuff they want to sell the fans.
If they throw out a fifth cd then this cd would still fall under the agreement, because the promiss that there will be at least 4 NEW CD's, and thus also cd's like described in the add above, IS PART of the agreement with the members of this year.
Nowhere does it say that the Club can make this exclusive stuff avalaible somewhere else and thus basically nullyfy the exclusive character and therefore the entir meaning and constitution of the club, promissed under the agreement.

Everywhere it is basically said for any common man to understand that you are dealing with an exclusive music club.
Not a 'non'- exclusive music club.


exclusivity makes these problems arise.





Well i basically just did that above in my last attempt of trying to make you understand the situation from the legal perspective as well as in interpretating the language of an offer as well as the meaning of the law. i hope it is becoming clearer now.




WRONG. You are assuming.

All you are talking about here happened here on the org and there is no way of telling that all the fans who may feel screwed now or in the future actually really read all that stuff here and thus could have known it wasn't really exclusive. Only the people that read those threads could have known. And there may be a lot of folks here, but not all members come here daily. And neither would you ever be able to prove that because they visited these threads they knew that the Club was in this way different than what is advertised.

That is ALL making assumptions that you are doing there.
That is something you can not do in these matters.



maybe for some of the people here, but not for all the rest who did not know and neither was reasonably expected to know.

You know that the general information the Club gives out rattles in many ways. They are the ones who need to fix these problems. They are the ones who created it in the first place.



NOW it is vague . NOW

Not then... NOW

Because only with some really technical legal imagination you could NOW interpretate the adds in a way that the deal does not necessarily mean that all stuff made avalaible will be exclusive. But you will have a very hard if not impossible time trying to convince a judge about that when you are dealing with genrally in htese matters, ignorant consumers.

You can only come to your wrong "conclusions" because you apply those 'lawyer' techiques of dissenting entire sentences and trying to make them sound as if they could have meant something else than that what was rather clearly stated.
Exclusivity is the entire concept of what the club repeatedly has send out. Then you start to mix it up with some of the personal information YOU gathered and applied ONLY to YOUR (business) standards of thinking, which are really much more high than the average consumer.



Once again...was it too vague(as you're saying here), or was there enough information to determine the services and products sold??(which is what you said up above, that they THOUGHT they're was enough)...to me, it's either/or...and if there WAS enough info, then screw all this talk about "they were too vague!!"..lol...
[/quote]

ONCE AGAIN

The non- exclusivity we know see was not clear at the time. There reasonably appeared to be enough information once the club launched this year for year 2, UNTILL NOW


Only NOW it becomes clear that the offer is NOT what they said it was.

And you my friend have just lost this debate!

but I hope and pray that you have learned at least something about the legal BASICS and also complexities of this case.

OUCH!!! You gonna let him call you Arsenio???



*kee stands up and applaudes Abrazo...knowing damn well that wellbeyond will come back and dissect his/her post...disregarding any logic...hehehehehe..(come on wellbeyond, you know you just like to play devils advocate when it comes to defending prince.)

Chocolate Saurkraut Bunt Cake

Shared by: recipegalfawn

6.6 Points Per Serving



12 pieces would be 6.6 points per slice. That figure is also without the topping. This recipe I got out of my Grandmothers cookbook with recipes she has gathered over the last 60 years and were her favoirtes. Dawn

2 1/4 c flour

1 teas baking soda

1 teas baking powder

1 1/2 c sugar

2/3 c butter

3 eggs

1 1/4 teas vanilla

1/4 teas salt

1/2 C cocoa

1 C water

1 C saurkraut - rinsed and drained well - chopped



Cream sugar and butter Beat in eggs, vanilla, salt and cocoa Add dry ingredients and water alternately Blend in Kraut and mix well Bake in greased and floured bundt cake Bake 375º oven for 45-50 minutes Top with powdered sugar glaze or cherry pie filling when serving

Serves 12

SuiteLady said:

And as soon as I say I haven't heard the song in about 3 weeks... what do I hear on the way home from work today?

Oiy!

"Here's a simple fact: Never did the NPGMC promise "exclusiveness" when referring to the CDs they'd be mailing out to members...they only promised that members would hear the music "first"...yet we toss around the word "exclusive" as if they did...we put it in quotation marks even, as if we're quoting them directly...this is truly an example of passing off our own presumptions and perceptions as "fact"... "

I figured id copy this from one of Wellbeyonds earlier posts on this topic.

I get such a kick out of this, because but a few minutes later I had the pleasure of cutting and pasting from the NPGMC site their sentence which describes the music as "xclusive".

Pardon me, im sippin my beer thru a straw at this point. goodnight peeps.

TIME

WELL

SPENT

???

I cannot believe I'm actually agreeing with CalhounSq. What a waste of time arguing about this. I think what frustrates people more than anything about this little non-issue is the continued lack of clarity about anything from the music club, not to mention the lack of news, updates & worthwhile benefits for all members, not just those Prince decides to tour near. Yet, the idea that ONA's potential release to record stores will expose more people to Prince is a bit of a stretch. Do you honestly think anyone outside of his most devoted fans would be interested in this dismissable snorefest?

IrishEcho said:

You sir, are a dolt. It is this very music which brought me to appreciate the musical talents of Mr. Prince.

I do not care for the risque nonsense of his early career that Bernadette always used to force me to listen to during our more amorous moments.

Clive85 said:

is this sarcasm? cause if it isnt...well, Prince has now become the Barry Manilow that we have all joked about...

Barry Manilow is quite an accomplished popular singer, however I find it hard to avoid drawing comparisons with Neil Diamond. Mr. Diamond certainly takes the gold medal in that particular competition, don't you think!

I'm really not averse to such music, but I would much prefer to listen to Barber's Adagio for Strings.