There is a little debate going on in another thread. I thought perhaps it deserved its own thread and was actually taking away from the original topic.

Anyhow I have been a die hard Prince fan for 23 years and I just find it hilarious that people make comments regarding Prince and God. As if TRC and comments made since Larry Graham came around were something new.

I argue that his take on God and Jesus and salvation are absolutely positively nothing new. I have even given examples of earlier work that are about as subtle religiously as Getoff is sexually. Just to name a couple I Would Die 4 U, The Cross, Thunder, Power Fantastic, God, BL&B, saying the Lords Prayer during Controversy...TRC was nothing new!! What about Lovesexy which just about everyone likes more because of the quality and style of music!!! My goodness No, & Anestesia..."Save me Jesus I've been a fool...how could I forget you are the rule! You are my GOD I am your child for now on..4 u I will be wild..I shall be quick I shall be strong I'll tell your story no matter how long!!" Now if that's not a bat hitting you over the head I don't know what is!

Nothing has changed except the music!
[Edited 2/19/06 20:25pm]

I wouldn't say "nothing" has changed.

As I see it, the relationship has changed.

As many of us with simular types of relationships with God

We live our lives with it. It is a journy not a destination.

However I suport your thread!

Yay!

Alexandernvrmind said:



like I said your no Christian...how can you have an open mind when the very nature of Christianity is to aknowledge Christ as the son of GOD and the worlds savior. Sorry your sob story won't work on me. You either believe it or you don't. There is no open mind and just try picking up your Bible instead of believing what you chose to believe because its right there. Lastly lets step away from Christianity for a moment and lets talk about Islam or Judaism and think about what your saying about having an open mind? Its absurd and peopl of those faiths would say the same things I am saying to you now. You either believe or you don't. Clearly by you having an open mind means you don't believe in anything related to being a Christian. Heck it appears to me that you don't even know what that is

Moonbeam said:
For the record, I do believe that Christ is the son of God and the world's savior. But my beliefs aren't the question here. It's funny that you jumped to conclusions about my beliefs based on the way I choose to present them. I obviously am not your kind of Christian, which is fine. That doesn't disqualify me as a Christian, though, now does it?

Furthermore, adhering to a specific belief system does not automatically have to go with having a closed mind. There is plenty that I have learned from other cultures and religions that I feel would benefit society as a whole. I don't feel that it has threatened my Christianity at all, but rather enhanced it.

The issue that has been raised by many is more about the way spiritual beliefs are presented to others. If you jump down people's throat with your beliefs and have no context of their beliefs or their struggles, it isn't going to work. Point blank. I know from experience- lots of it. My best friend in college was an atheist who was completely turned off by Christianity because of those types of approaches. People have related better to Prince's expressions of belief in the past because the nature of the lyrics was more of a celebration of his beliefs rather than a mandate of them as infallible doctrine.

Alexandernvrmind said:
Moonbeam this has nothing to do with what I believe. The very basics of Christianity you fly in the face of. There is nothing to be opened minded about if you are a true believer. Also if you were a true believer you would try and convert as many as possible. That is not my opinion that is in the Bible you know the book that Christians use as guide to live their lives

I'm sure you a nice enough person but I would seriously challenge you to really study and read about you so called Christianity because based on what you say here you appear to be in a major struggle. Sorry no offense but it is what it is
[Edited 2/19/06 16:51pm]

I believe there are those of us in the world today that can hear the voice of god as discribed in several religion's texts.

If you were one of us could you truly be put into one of several catogoraial "religions" that are more wrong then they are right? If you could would you want to be? Would you think that is what god wanted?

Look at Jesus. The man spoke with god, thus he had a religion based around him. Do you think this is what Jesus would do? I wouldn't want that done to me in any case, thus it would be more likened to the devil speaking to the christ in the desert offering up the world to Jesus if he would have just bowed down. Jesus took the higher harder road. I know when jesus is seen as comming back it will not have been what every christStain was hoping, expecting anticipating.

I come as a theif in the night. I will have been there without you knowing it.

Fearthermore: When Jesus is revealed he will have been that crazy man that had been saying so for so long. But only in the moment of God's choosing will he be able to truly be seen.

He will have been a voice crying out in the wilderness.

He will have been like a sheep lead to the hair cutter.

Without his coat, he is unreconizable.

upon the deafness of sheltered ears.

Does Prince believe in God, or does he actually think that he is God?

Moreover:

Several here have questioned me about my "intrest" in prince's spiritual innards.

Some come up with the conclusion that his "spirituality" is part of his "private life".

I see someone's spirituality part of the mediphyical world. Those that might have a responcability there have an intrest.

Thus Prince's rightiousness of his spiritual state and my examination of such a state of mind isn't an intrusion into his personal life. I would never be so bold as to intrude into his personal life. It is simply what I do.

I am no more nor less consered with Prince's spirituality then I am any other persons.

Unfortunally, the ladder is there and we must focus on it rung by rung.

Please don't take my words as personal. To anyone and everyone my words are simply a rant.

2freaky4church1 said:

depends upon the God in question.

Such songs as Lovesexy and Thunder shows, at least in the eyes of the word, he does have a factor of intrest into the God universal Creator.

God is such a subjective term in this world. God is an overly complexed phonomon that is better understood in basic terms. Unfortuanlly, this is not the case as to what the world has done to the term that is god.

Thus: universal creator and it's consciousness is what I speak of when speaking of God.

2freaky4church1 said:

Ouch, all that falling hurt my behind.

I thought about worshipping Prince as my God but, then I changed my mind.

My 2 cents:

I believe based on Prince's music in the past, that he at least at one time believed the Gospel. I'm not happy with his choice of a religion now though. Judging by the Black Sweat video and the dancers he now has, he may be pulling away from the JWs. Only he knows for sure.

I think that Prince had some good Bible training at some point in his life early on and his beliefs came out in some of his music. He had the correct beliefs but lacked the commitment. But there is still hope that he will return to his original beliefs and commit himself to God.

tmo1965 said:[quote]My 2 cents:




Well, if he doesn't want to offend them he could always post this in the beginning of the video;

"Due to my strong personal convictions, I wish to stress that this film in no way endorses a belief in the occult."
[Edited 2/20/06 7:47am]

VanitySixx said:[quote]

tmo1965 said:

maybe thats why he doesn't actually dance or touch her...who knows

Forget Jehova! Maybe he doesn't touch her because of Mani, she'd probably kick his ass!!

Hi Alexandrnvrmind,

I agree only partially. Something has changed about the way Prince expressed his spirituality.

As a listener, I before LoveSexy I always thought that Prince's references to christianity only suggested boundless ambition. "Baby I'm a star", "I would die for you" - it all suggested he thought he was divine himself. Though I'm not relegious myself, I thought it was rather blasphemic. Even the prayer in Controversy had that effect on me.

But LoveSexy put it in a totally different light, because the gospel couldn't be escaped anymore. You can't get much more explicit than Love is God, God is Love, etc. It was then that I started wondering if the songs on Purple Rain maybe expressed fascination with Jesus' (probably nearly) uncompromised goodness (I'm not religious but I do believe that), rather than Prince's own arrogance.

Now what I agree with you about, is that I think that Prince has always been as religious as he is now. Beit that he has become more direct and explicit about that and less explicit and direct about sex. And however static you expect a true believer to be, Prince seems to remain a critical thinker who also seems open enough to be fascinated with symbolism and mystique from other cultures. The distinction between Good and Bad seems to have become more and more nuanced in his songs.

In my personal opinion, he's been the most explicit and close-minded about religion in the nineties, which made his lyrics sometimes hard to bear to me. Since the new millenium his lyrics have become more free and sophisticated and easier to get along with.
.
[Edited 2/21/06 15:59pm]

It *did* change - from whatever flavour of Christian he was before, to Jehovah's Witness.

It's still Christian. I mean to me, it's like saying 'I love eating fish, before I used to love Salmon, but now I only eat Trout'.

I don't think I care what he believes or preaches, I never found Prince's religious beliefs that persuasive, or that convincing either to be honest - I always found myself doing a little freudian analysis on his beliefs.

In regard to a point in the original post though - I've always said that Prince has *always* been a Christian through and through.

Often fans have taken issue with this, but at the end of the day, all of Prince's lyrics pertaining to spiritual matters have been entrenched in Christian mythology, so what other conclusion can we arrive at?

This one's easy.

Prince was interested in the spiritual early on but it was at first a broad concept and it remained so until the second half of the nineties, when his spirituality was guided by Larry Graham. He had bible studies with Larry and started being more preachy in concert. Eventually, we had TRC and self-censored classic songs.

But now it looks like Prince may be going into the other direction, being less judgmental and self-righteous. It does not mean he isn't still religious, but he does not seem as strict. I think he's realized that, to some extent, faith comforted him in the difficult post-Emancipation years and that this lead him to be more radical and narrow in his spirituality. I like to think that the current détente started during the acoustic portion of the first LA Musicology concert, when he was reportedly close to tears, overwhelmed by the reception he was receiving. Despite all his protestations, Prince wants to be loved by a broad, record-buying, chart-pumping public, still cares to be a star, still measures his worth by the impact of his music. And who would blame him? So many nights in the studio, so many gems left in the vault unheard -- it has to hurt when you're selling barely over 50,000 units and you're basically selling your music to the same 70,000 people over and over.

I don't think we'll see a return of the purple-clad satyr persona if Prince's return to the mainstream continues big time with 3121, but I think he will continue to loosen up a bit more spiritually.

Okay peeps,,,lemme break it down. This is the POPE speaking after all.
Prince has always believed in GOD. As apparent from his older material
in the 80's. And the GOD he believed in or spoke/sung about was the
GOD known as JESUS. (The Trinity)
However, he seemed to only speak of GOD or sing of him and did not
practice any form of religion. He was always quite the Gemini and always
sang of sin/salvation. His highly charged sexuality and x rated lyrics
would detract from his spiritual side that spoke of his belief in GOD (the christian god Jesus.) In other words, he never practiced what he preached.
Yes he loved god , but he did not live to please god, he was pleasing prince.

Near the end of the nineties Prince converted to JW. Which is apparent from
his change in behavior (no more swearing, no lewd behavior on stage..)
However, now that he is older and enlightened and believes he found the 'truth' in the JW version of the bible, he practices what he preaches.

SO the main difference is now he practices what he preaches, wheras before he
would not.

U can be the Prezident, I'd rather be the POPE

Alexandernvrmind said:

What's BL&B?

And why don't people consider Graffiti Bridge to be a religious album?

Aerogram said:

You’re right on, and I think everyone here agrees that we have known all along that prince is a spiritual guy, great.


It’s the "judgmental and self-righteous" part in recent years that some have had some trouble with.
Alexandernvrmind says that’s what Christianity is all about, that it’s in the bible, so I guess its true.
So we should never question religion ever..., not Pat Robertson, child molester priests, the Inquisition, the earth is flat fiasco. etc.
[Edited 2/21/06 19:08pm]

LillianLaughs said:

very good response...really enjoyed reading your thoughts...thanks

NouveauDance said:

yes I agree...I just don't agree that its anymore prevelant than before. I also agree that fans from time to time have taken issue...just think its a louder group recently with somes disapointment with the quality of music...thanks for the feedback

homeandmantel said:

Comon thats not fair...what I said is that as Christians we are called on by God to spread the word. I also said that as Christians we are not "open" about who and what GOD is. All that other stuff you said was way over the top

VanitySixx said:[quote]

tmo1965 said:

Or: "Due to my strong purple convictions, I wish to stress that this film in no way endorses a belief in the sweat."

Alexandernvrmind said:

I don't think it is either.

I think, that because Prince has actually vocalised what flavour of Christianity his beliefs are at present, and that flavour is one that is generally thought of as 'cultish', well, it makes it an easy target doesn't it. I think THAT'S where the vocalisation on the matter stems from.
[Edited 2/22/06 3:49am]

This is why they say never discuss religion and politics. Give a monkey a gun, and he will shoot himself, in one way or another.

ImYours said:

I'm not sure this is true. I would like to see this done as a study.

thepope2the9s said:

So very true, and amazing how a certain anti-Christian populace chooses to act deaf and dumb to such blatantness, calling the beliefs "self-righteous" or "narrowminded" as if Christianity would endorse Shinto, Satanism, Church of Free Love OR VICE VERSA -- oh my how discriminatory! Hard to deal with when you have no beliefs at all or no understanding of absolute Biblical truth.

The mainstream press can cast a blind eye as well. Summer 2004 NEWSWEEK had an article on Prince, the Musicology comeback and his newfound faith, a false premise..the writer stated as if amazed how on the tour Prince sang "Let the Lord Jesus Christ guide you to the Purple Rain" as if this was something new, when as far back as 85 it's documented on the Syracuse, NY Prince and Revolution video.

Honestly, before I listened/really got into Prince several year ago, growing up all I heard from the media was the sex tie-in, I became amazed at the "spirtual" (don't you dare say CHRISTIAN!!) aspect of his work as well.

jacobpb said:

Talk about an oxymoron.