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PrintableI'm telling y'all the realities of the American music industry, particularly in the late seventies. Y'all can sing kumbaya and call me a race baiter but ask Prince what race relations were when he was coming up. You ever heard the original Old Friends 4 Sale?
They say you lost your fire Cuz another musician you hire Little do they know They wouldnta passed go Unless they could take you higher Folx been mad about the end of the Revolution for a long time. Its great that things have gotten better. But hell, Prince and Michael couldnt even get played on MTV until it dawned on the execs the public demand so they could get paid. Talk to some old school cats about this game. Martin Luther King's dream got him killed. Real talk. [Edited 2/15/06 21:27pm] | |
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jtfolden said: skywalker said: -I think that they positively influenced Prince, but no more than some of the others Prince has worked with. People view these two with rose colored nostalgia goggles and make them out to be more than they really were. Not saying they weren't a great influence, but so were MANY MANY MANY other musicians Prince has worked with. Wendy and Lisa are just (arguably)the most well known.[/b]
So what other musicians would you say that Prince has worked with that affected his sound and output to as much of a degree as the Melvoin/Coleman family* members (and what are these tracks / albums)? *I say Melvoin/Coleman family because there's really more here than just the W&L connection when you start digging... Dr. Fink, Michael B., Larry Graham, Sonny T., Rosie Gaines, Sheila, the npg hornd have all arguably affected his sound as much as Wendy and Lisa. Whethere you liked it or not is a different subject.... "New Power slide...." |
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JonnyApplesauce said: I'm telling y'all the realities of the American music industry, particularly in the late seventies. Y'all can sing kumbaya and call me a race baiter but ask Prince what race relations were when he was coming up. You ever heard the original Old Friends 4 Sale?
They say you lost your fire Cuz another musician you hire Little do they know They wouldnta passed go Unless they could take you higher Folx been mad about the end of the Revolution for a long time. Its great that things have gotten better. But hell, Prince and Michael couldnt even get played on MTV until it dawned on the execs the public demand so they could get paid. Talk to some old school cats about this game. Martin Luther King's dream got him killed. Real talk. [Edited 2/15/06 21:27pm] You are fighting a losing battle. Folks want to catch attitudes whenever race is brought up, regardless of it's relevancy to the subject matter. I mean, if you ain't kissing W&L ass, you don't have a real appreciation for muscianship or songwriting.  | |
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and who said W&L sucked? | |
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skywalker said: Dr. Fink, Michael B., Larry Graham, Sonny T., Rosie Gaines, Sheila, the npg hornd have all arguably affected his sound as much as Wendy and Lisa. Whethere you liked it or not is a different subject....
Dr. Fink, sure. Sheila, not as much. Larry, moreso his actions than his music. The others? Players, not major contributors. noituloveryxesevolasildnaydnew
is the water warm enough? | |
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"The '84-'86 period shows Prince was growing, as an artist, at a very dramatic pace and features some pretty radical and innovative styles compared to what he had previously released."
This COULD be attributed to Wendy and Lisa; however, you must also take in consideration the stage in his career that Prince was at. He was on top of the pop world and he could do anything-so he did. I think without Wendy and Lisa, the sound might have altered , but the experimentation and adventurous would still be there. It was there before them-"Dirty Mind"- "1999" and was there after them. There are other 2 year chunks of Prince's career that are arguably as interesting as 1984-1986. "New Power slide...." |
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JonnyApplesauce said: I'm telling y'all the realities of the American music industry, particularly in the late seventies. Y'all can sing kumbaya and call me a race baiter but ask Prince what race relations were when he was coming up. You ever heard the original Old Friends 4 Sale?
They say you lost your fire Cuz another musician you hire Little do they know They wouldnta passed go Unless they could take you higher Folx been mad about the end of the Revolution for a long time. Its great that things have gotten better. But hell, Prince and Michael couldnt even get played on MTV until it dawned on the execs the public demand so they could get paid. Talk to some old school cats about this game. Martin Luther King's dream got him killed. Real talk. [Edited 2/15/06 21:27pm] umm..where those lyrics even about wendy and lisa? and ummm...so, how did mj get play without white folks backin him? your arguements are appreciated but until you start speaking with some serious historical context instead of hyperbole your rhetoric is going to be dismissed. we can all make grandstanding statements..for instance: oprah is a white woman.. Space for sale... | |
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Why? Those were totally ahead of their time and, like it or not, W&L were there during this time.
Right, but W&L weren't necessarily directly responsible for the albums being ahead of there time. I could easily argue that Prince was MORE ahead of his time before Wendy joined the band. If vainandy were here, he'd argue that Prince stopped being innovative in 1985 when he went (in vainandy's words) "retro". "New Power slide...." |
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PurpleCharm said: and who said W&L sucked?
that would be called, humor. remember that?  Space for sale... | |
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skywalker said: jtfolden said: So what other musicians would you say that Prince has worked with that affected his sound and output to as much of a degree as the Melvoin/Coleman family* members (and what are these tracks / albums)? *I say Melvoin/Coleman family because there's really more here than just the W&L connection when you start digging... Dr. Fink, Michael B., Larry Graham, Sonny T., Rosie Gaines, Sheila, the npg hornd have all arguably affected his sound as much as Wendy and Lisa. Whethere you liked it or not is a different subject.... How many songs they write and produce with Prince? You got 'em lying around somewhere? I'd like to hear 'em. | |
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NouveauDance said: dewalliz said: Not again damnit.
 
Seriously, Lisa and Wendy influenced Prince just as much he influenced them. It worked both ways. Even though 1985-86 wasn't my fav era, the obvious is there. Prince also had many influences from other people too, before and even after L&W, who helped him producing some great music even though he relied on less influences after 1986. Now that doesn't take away Prince's genius nor means that Lisa and Wendy influence are so likable as i liked their work on Purple Rain and Raspberry Beret but I didnt care for too much of Mountains and Sometimes it snows in april. I digged Lisa more because she had unique piano playing skills and plus I adore her I don't give a fuck attitude and that goes back to my fav era Dirty Mind. She reminded me of Prince and that is why Prince had always perferred her as his sister. Wendy's okay guitarist and all but I didn't care a lot for her as much I cared for Dez and Andre. She's too overrated imho. If I get criticized from some of L&W's fans for not like them equally oh well because they are two different people with different styles. 
Overall I am glad Prince and the ladies are on good terms again with each other. If Prince's happy of them to be part of his life again, so am I. Even though I wanted the whole Revolution reunited again but hey having a partial band is better than nothing. Life is too fucking short for long-term grudges. But how long this going to last who knows?
Like it or not that's my  That's fair enough. I agree, there was definate cross-pollination, since both artists work after '86 has often twinkled with their other's distant influence. For me, it's never about the musicianship - I mean, if you're in Prince's band, you can play, no doubt about it, I like band members that add their unique character to Prince's output, something individual, spicy or polar to the expected. I liked the 94/95 NPG for the same reason, they were a great band, made up of great individuals, and why the revolving door on the NPG these past few years leaves me increasingly unconcerned about who is standing on the stage with Prince. I know that's right. Prince aint going to hire someone who can't play. I do admitted that the Revolution (1983-84)/Dirty Mind/SOTT & Lovesexy Bands are my favorite because like you sort of saying the bandmembers had their own style and added some to Prince and also that they have their own personality. I didn't care for the NPG band regardless of what period because they were just another for-hired musicians. I just basically watched Prince when he performed with NPG and I agreed with you as well of being indifferent who is playing with Prince especially the last ten years. | |
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Those lyrics from OF4S are NOT about Wendy & Lisa. | |
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PurpleCharm said: JonnyApplesauce said: I'm telling y'all the realities of the American music industry, particularly in the late seventies. Y'all can sing kumbaya and call me a race baiter but ask Prince what race relations were when he was coming up. You ever heard the original Old Friends 4 Sale?
They say you lost your fire Cuz another musician you hire Little do they know They wouldnta passed go Unless they could take you higher Folx been mad about the end of the Revolution for a long time. Its great that things have gotten better. But hell, Prince and Michael couldnt even get played on MTV until it dawned on the execs the public demand so they could get paid. Talk to some old school cats about this game. Martin Luther King's dream got him killed. Real talk. [Edited 2/15/06 21:27pm] You are fighting a losing battle. Folks want to catch attitudes whenever race is brought up, regardless of it's relevancy to the subject matter. I mean, if you ain't kissing W&L ass, you don't have a real appreciation for muscianship or songwriting. So true. My ears are working just fine. | |
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NouveauDance said: Those lyrics from OF4S are NOT about Wendy & Lisa.
No, theyre in reference to the W & L trekies who didnt want the Revolution to end. | |
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LisasBrush said: skywalker said: Dr. Fink, Michael B., Larry Graham, Sonny T., Rosie Gaines, Sheila, the npg hornd have all arguably affected his sound as much as Wendy and Lisa. Whethere you liked it or not is a different subject....
Dr. Fink, sure. Sheila, not as much. Larry, moreso his actions than his music. The others? Players, not major contributors. Well, you are never going to know exactly how much any of PRince's musicians are responsible for because Prince has rarely answered this. Sure, there are stacks of books that claim one thing or another, but he general idea is that Prince absorbs from everyone and makes it HIS. That includes input from Wendy and Lisa. Again, Prince was groundbreaking and diverse in his sound BEFORE W&L. I am not denying their talent and input, but I could just as easily point out the huge Tony M. influence on Prince's "sound". Suddenly Prince had a rapper and his song writing reflected that for better or worse. [Edited 2/15/06 21:43pm] "New Power slide...." |
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skywalker said: Dr. Fink, Michael B., Larry Graham, Sonny T., Rosie Gaines, Sheila, the npg hornd have all arguably affected his sound as much as Wendy and Lisa. Whethere you liked it or not is a different subject....
Maybe his "sound", esp in live performance, but not his song-writing, which is what the original poster is talking about. Fink added a few solos to some records, and as much as I "deify" Sheila myself, I would never say that she influenced his songwriting or songs (except for adding some Latin percussion feel to some songs). People can't seem to have an intelligent disucussion on here.
And that whole thing about race and hiring W&L just cuz they are white is all supposition and theory (paranoid theory IMO) but regardless, still theory. [Edited 2/15/06 21:45pm]  |
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sosgemini said: JonnyApplesauce said: I'm telling y'all the realities of the American music industry, particularly in the late seventies. Y'all can sing kumbaya and call me a race baiter but ask Prince what race relations were when he was coming up. You ever heard the original Old Friends 4 Sale?
They say you lost your fire Cuz another musician you hire Little do they know They wouldnta passed go Unless they could take you higher Folx been mad about the end of the Revolution for a long time. Its great that things have gotten better. But hell, Prince and Michael couldnt even get played on MTV until it dawned on the execs the public demand so they could get paid. Talk to some old school cats about this game. Martin Luther King's dream got him killed. Real talk. [Edited 2/15/06 21:27pm] umm..where those lyrics even about wendy and lisa? and ummm...so, how did mj get play without white folks backin him? your arguements are appreciated but until you start speaking with some serious historical context instead of hyperbole your rhetoric is going to be dismissed. we can all make grandstanding statements..for instance: oprah is a white woman.. I have been clear, and precise. Tell you what; As it relates to American popular music in the 1980s, define crossover | |
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JonnyApplesauce said: NouveauDance said: Those lyrics from OF4S are NOT about Wendy & Lisa.
No, theyre in reference to the W & L trekies who didnt want the Revolution to end. why be so argumentative? why make up stuff to defend your point of view..your free to say you dont care for wendy and lisa's music..(not that your saying that)..your free to say that you dont think wendy and lisa contributed much.. were you are erroring is in trying to find some "truth" behind your arguement...cause there aint none..its all opinions.. so either your trying to rile folks up..or you have yet to learn how to differentiate between an opinion and fact.. which is it? Space for sale... | |
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JonnyApplesauce said: NouveauDance said: Those lyrics from OF4S are NOT about Wendy & Lisa.
No, theyre in reference to the W & L trekies who didnt want the Revolution to end. Here we go, off the cuff attempts at belittling insults that completely miss the point of the thread. So what, 2 dozen posts in, and we've already had the race card and the insults. I still think we got some interesting discussion in before the inevitable started to creep in. Every music act goes off the boil eventually, but I think Prince, Wendy & Lisa hadn't quite run out of creative steam just yet I don't think, The Dream Factory was a wildly enjoyable, fun, and fruitful kaleidoscopic mis-adventure. Where could they have gone after that? Who knows, it's a woulda-shoulda-coulda, but I don't think they had quite reached their peak as a team of creatives sharing ideas together and in an increasingly balanced, and threatening to the male Alpha-male ego, musical psuedo-democracy. [Edited 2/15/06 21:54pm] | |
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JonnyApplesauce said: sosgemini said: umm..where those lyrics even about wendy and lisa? and ummm...so, how did mj get play without white folks backin him? your arguements are appreciated but until you start speaking with some serious historical context instead of hyperbole your rhetoric is going to be dismissed. we can all make grandstanding statements..for instance: oprah is a white woman.. I have been clear, and precise. Tell you what; As it relates to American popular music in the 1980s, define crossover what the hell does that have to do with the price of tea in china?  Space for sale... | |
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DorothyParkerWasCool said: Prince's influences ie. his hereos arguably had a greater impact than all of the musicians he worked with combined. I respect all of the great band members he's had but if you REALLY want to know who impacted Prince's music look no further than Sly, Stevie, Joni Mitchell,James Brown, Little Richard, Larry Graham, P-Funk, Jimi, Santana, Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Curtis Mayfield and a few essential others. Their impact on Prince's sound is more indelible than any of the musicians he's worked with and it becomes apparent when you explore the people he loves so much. He was channeling all of these individuals and synthesizing them with what he was trying to do. His band members were vital but no where near as important as those artists.
Speaking of the Joni influence... I really wish that she had rubbed off more on our little friend. I know he admires her a great deal and has mentioned her frequently over the years but I don't really hear much of her coming through in his music. His lyrics very rarely reach the heights that she is known for, though I suppose his penchant for completely changing the style and tone mid way through a track could be inspired by her prior work. I used to think Sometimes It Snows In April was "the" apex of copping Joni's early style but, as we now know, that is a W&L track musically. So, I guess that's sort of a Joni tribute once removed.  | |
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sosgemini said: JonnyApplesauce said: No, theyre in reference to the W & L trekies who didnt want the Revolution to end. why be so argumentative? why make up stuff to defend your point of view..your free to say you dont care for wendy and lisa's music..(not that your saying that)..your free to say that you dont think wendy and lisa contributed much.. were you are erroring is in trying to find some "truth" behind your arguement...cause there aint none..its all opinions.. so either your trying to rile folks up..or you have yet to learn how to differentiate between an opinion and fact.. which is it? I have not been argumentative. I have not made anything up. I never said I didnt care for W & L's music. You said that about me, like the other mischaracterizations you keep making about my posts because you dont like the substance of whats being said. Rather than trying to put words in my mouth, making up things about what I've said, why dont you accept my opinion w/out all the evil characterisations of it? [Edited 2/15/06 21:59pm] | |
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You know, instead of all this stupid bickering, let's just look at Prince's own behavior:
[Edited 2/15/06 21:58pm] |
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JonnyApplesauce said: PurpleCharm said: You are fighting a losing battle. Folks want to catch attitudes whenever race is brought up, regardless of it's relevancy to the subject matter. I mean, if you ain't kissing W&L ass, you don't have a real appreciation for muscianship or songwriting. So true. My ears are working just fine. I thought my ears were working fine too until I entered this thread  and was told that I have no appreciation for musicianship or songwriting...silly me, what was I thinking. [Edited 2/15/06 22:06pm] | |
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skywalker said: LisasBrush said: Dr. Fink, sure. Sheila, not as much. Larry, moreso his actions than his music. The others? Players, not major contributors. [b]Well, you are never going to know exactly how much any of PRince's musicians are responsible for because Prince has rarely answered this. Sure, there are stacks of books that claim one thing or another, but he general idea is that Prince absorbs from everyone and makes it HIS.  | |
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GaryMF said: You know, instead of all this stupid bickering, let's just look at Prince's own behavior:
[Edited 2/15/06 21:58pm] When a few thousand paying fans start obsessing on them , he probably will but its not likely cuz theyre Black. Call me crazy but growing up w/ somebody and living in their basement probably has a big effect on a person. | |
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GaryMF said: You know, instead of all this stupid bickering, let's just look at Prince's own behavior:
[Edited 2/15/06 21:58pm] How do you know that he did not invite other past band members? | |
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dewalliz said: I digged Lisa more because she had unique piano playing skills and plus I adore her I don't give a fuck attitude and that goes back to my fav era Dirty Mind. She reminded me of Prince and that is why Prince had always perferred her as his sister.
I agree about Lisa... I always found it really interesting that such unique piano playing (that can dart from delicate to fiery in an instant) comes from someone with such a "I don't give a fuck attitude". I really wish she would step forward a little more. I do think she's the more interesting, musically, of the two and I prefer her singing voice, as well. | |
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JonnyApplesauce said: When a few thousand paying fans start obsessing on them , he probably will but its not likely cuz theyre Black. Call me crazy but growing up w/ somebody and living in their basement probably has a big effect on a person.
Your response is not very coherent. The 1st sentence has nothing to do with the first. It appears you are trying to say that fans wont' obsess over the others cuz they are black? I suppose that is why artists like Beyonce, Usher, Ciara, Ahsanti, etc. are huge, chart topping artists even though they are black too?? Otherwise are you trying to say Prince won't invite them cuz they are black?? BTW these are rhetorical questions, because I doubt I'll get a coherent response. |
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PurpleCharm said: GaryMF said: You know, instead of all this stupid bickering, let's just look at Prince's own behavior:
[Edited 2/15/06 21:58pm] How do you know that he did not invite other past band members? Well, technically you are right, we don't. But let's see, do you think Rhonda, Sonny T, Rosie Gaines, Tommy B etc. were just too busy to show up? They had more pressing engagements??? Yeah...that must be it. |
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