This is lifted verbatim from a post @ HQ.com, I make no apologises for this, I wanted the .org perspective.

What are your thoughts about Wendy & Lisa's writing partnership and influence on Prince's music?

Was it the best thing that ever happened to Prince's music? Was it just a few years of watered-down raw funk? Whatever your opinion, for or against, everyone has an opinion on the matter. Mine is as follows.....

IMO it's quite a sad story, there was definately a magic in P, W and L's working/personal relationship, and I think W&L could have really helped shape Prince's music in a more mature and challenging way than it eventually went after they left. Something like 'Power Fantastic' shows their influence on Prince, it's an awe-inspiringly spine-tingling and beautiful and mature song that couldn't've come about from anyone else but these amazing people working together at the peak of their collective creativity.

I don't wish to overstate their importance (many a thread has tumbled into a slanging match between the two camps on that argument - the 'He was never the same after they left' crowd verses the 'Prince was making W&L-less shit-hot music before 1983 you know' crowd) - Saying that, I am stating their importance - it was a really special writing partnership that I think was kinda cut short before it deserved to be because of stupid things that got in the way.

I don't think anyone else that Prince has worked with has had such a profound effect on his work - They definately added colour, form and boundaries to his work that set way and above what Prince's peers on the pop music charts were putting out. I'm not saying other associates didn't play crucial roles too, Andre, Dez, Sheila, Eric, Levi, Miko, Sonny, Michael B, Fink, Rhonda, yes they all contributed, but I don't think in the same 'Lennon/McCartney' sense as W/L/P.

I mean there's stuff on Parade and Dream Factory/Sign O' The Times that you can stand to the side of Madonna and Michael Jackson's work from the same period and anyone with a decent ear and an unbiased opinion would say Prince was on a completely different level to these peers - completely different level.

You would never hear that level of musicianship or sincere, philosophical lyrical work in a Madonna or MJ song, never ever ever.

Now the 1984-86 years aren't even my favourite Prince music period (not even my second favourite), but surely regardless of what anyone thinks about Wendy & Lisa, and their importance, or lack of, to Prince's music - SURELY, we all can see in something like 'Mountains', 'She Wants A Place In Heaven', 'In A Large Room With No Light' or (IMO) the pièce de résistance 'Power Fantastic' - surely in their considerable input in and influence on the music speaks volumes about the way their work with Prince lifted him above being a popstar and helped him become an artist with lyrics and music that was way and above his competition and peers. And here, I'm not that they 'made' Prince, or he 'needed' them, then or now - Just that all together, all 3 made music that really took Prince up a notch and cemented his legacy, not just as a mega-selling popstar, but a commentable artist with 'validity' beyond his peers.


Sorry for the - You have permission, nay my blessing, to lampoon me for writing at such length on something that most sane people know will end in tears or a - I do tend to pontificate on my points to ensure the point is understood correctly and not brushed off as a biased W&L fanboy gush.
[Edited 2/15/06 18:33pm]

NouveauDance said:

I think they introduced him to some new music for a while. It got the Baroque piano solo into When Doves Cry...but after he had learned what he could and wanted to learn from them...he moved on...and I ain't mad. I also am not mad though that she's around for a bit again. She is able to easily give Prince constructive criticism because of the prior relationship/history.

He has enough femininity in his music, dont need no more.

Such a tired topic.

origmnd said:

Sorry, I know it is, I mean really I KNOW it is. Like I said, these W&L threads rage on, and get locked for personal insults and increasingly un-masked racial comments, not to mention cheap unfunny stabs at their sexuality by the ignorant and infantile.

But it's such a pivotal and entangled part of the Prince myth/history, it has staying power and genuine points of contention where geeky fans like us can try to join the dots for a pleasing synopsis of this chapter in Prince's career. Everyone has an opinion you know - They were part of 'Prince: The Megastar & Artist In His Creative Peak' years, when that music that sounded like no-one and nothing else was created and put out, when The Starr Company idea was swimming in cash and green lights for any pet project Prince could throw 3 classic but unpromoted singles and a flip-side of nerdy-fan favourites and masturbatory recording session left-overs at. And after they left, wow, Prince puts out his 'critically lauded master opus', which we, the fans, can see it for what it is, a beautiful, but secretly sorrowful hatchet job of the Revolution's emotionless death and Prince's musical petty divorce and estrangement from Wendy & Lisa.

So yes, I know it's a pimped out subject, but I wanted some engaging discussion about it, not just the usual scant jive talk and emoticon-only posts. I wanted some interesting opinions on this entangled musical 3some.

When they do a bio-pic for Prince, THIS should be the biggest slice of the film, it has EVERYTHING a great 'behind the curtain' music story needs

I pretty much agree with the original post. Like it or not, there's something distinct and unique about the W&L&P period. He's not been nearly as experimental since they left. It really doesn't have anything to do with femininity, etc... W&L just saw options and had ideas that enriched the music and paved the way for more interesting directions in his music.

jtfolden said:

Experimental? Lovesexy, The War, instrumental albums, solo piano albums, etc. What does experimental mean? Furthermore, what about the Wendy and Lisa period did he try that was THAT experimental. He used some strings and some french accents. It was Prince stretching musically, but I could easily argue that he has historically had a pattern of doing that. He did it before them, and he has done it since.
[Edited 2/15/06 18:51pm]

NouveauDance said:

Sorry, but there's no neutrality around here ...you gotta pick a side...that's just the way it is.

skywalker said:

So what other musicians would you say that Prince has worked with that affected his sound and output to as much of a degree as the Melvoin/Coleman family* members (and what are these tracks / albums)?


*I say Melvoin/Coleman family because there's really more here than just the W&L connection when you start digging...

skywalker said:

Out of all the above, I'd give you The War as being truly experimental. Surely, you aren't trying to say that the ONA Piano CD is some unique artistic landmark among Prince's released records?

The '84-'86 period shows Prince was growing, as an artist, at a very dramatic pace and features some pretty radical and innovative styles compared to what he had previously released. He was stretching musically, as you said, and would rarely stretch so far so often in the future. Without the Melvoin/Coleman family you would, also, have no Around The World In A Day (the song), Mountains, Sometimes It Snows In April, Power Fantastic, etc... And it was only around their influence that he created tracks like In A Large Room With No Light, All My Dreams, and the like.

After their dismissal Prince would eventually make a pretty much wholesale retreat back into more familiar territory (like R&B/Funk). Compare a record like Parade (or the unreleased Dream Factory) and their stylistic breadth to post W&L records like The Black Album, Diamonds & Pearls, etc...

skywalker said:

Hey, I liked Prince before, during, and after the W&L days. I agree, that some people just want the Revolution back because that was his most popular period. But its wrong to say ATWIAD, Parade, Dream Factory, and SOTT are not hugely experimental...especially during the 80s. The general public were scratching their heads to this stuff at the time. He made strange and new sounding music and made it accessable. I truly think Wendy & Lisa contributed to this sound, whether it was their songwriting or simply their opinions, they made music that was special. I have not heard it in his music since. I love Lovesexy, Gold Experience, and Musicology...but none of these are comparable to that string of albums in the mid 80s. Why? Those were totally ahead of their time and, like it or not, W&L were there during this time. I think there was a combination of hunger, contributions, healthy compitition, and pure raw talent that all came together in incredible music that holds up 20 years later.

DorothyParkerWasCool said:

NouveauDance said:

I totally agree. If I get a lil' more time tonight, I'll respond at length.

Not again damnit.

Seriously, Lisa and Wendy influenced Prince just as much he influenced them. It worked both ways. Even though 1985-86 wasn't my fav era, the obvious is there. Prince also had many influences from other people too, before and even after L&W, who helped him producing some great music even though he relied on less influences after 1986. Now that doesn't take away Prince's genius nor means that Lisa and Wendy influence are so likable as i liked their work on Purple Rain and Raspberry Beret but I didnt care for too much of Mountains and Sometimes it snows in april.

I digged Lisa more because she had unique piano playing skills and plus I adore her I don't give a fuck attitude and that goes back to my fav era Dirty Mind. She reminded me of Prince and that is why Prince had always perferred her as his sister. Wendy's okay guitarist and all but I didn't care a lot for her as much I cared for Dez and Andre. She's too overrated imho. If I get criticized from some of L&W's fans for not like them equally oh well because they are two different people with different styles.

Overall I am glad Prince and the ladies are on good terms again with each other. If Prince's happy of them to be part of his life again, so am I. Even though I wanted the whole Revolution reunited again but hey having a partial band is better than nothing. Life is too fucking short for long-term grudges. But how long this going to last who knows?

Like it or not that's my

DorothyParkerWasCool said:

True Dat.

Who is this Wendy and Lisa you speak of??...Are they new band member?

It's not even about how good they play (or not) - It's more about what they gave in addition to being glorified session and live musicians, I think they added something, a special ingredient, that probably was partly to do with them being female.

You know Prince says cornball things like 'These songs are my children', well if Prince is the birth-giving patriach, during the Revolution days W&L were matriach figures to those new born, infant and adopted songs - Giving them form, structure, new input sources, freedom of imagination, nurture, a sense of self-realization, defined but Bohemian-esque freeform boundaries that allowed Prince's very malliable ego to have the confidence to be a free-spirit and not concern itself with other people's pre-conceptions about itself (as has been displayed continuously at various intervals in Prince's career since The Black Album's reactionary creation, burial and cold-hearted uncerimonious exhumation for it's Gold teeth by desperate reliatives in 1994..

I see it kind of like a child upto the age of, well, I'd say 12, but these days, it's probably more like 6 or 7 - You know at that age, there were more chemicals in the brain, sorry I forgot the name, it's Trypo-somethings, and it's this euphoric natural chemical that gives Childhood its 'special magical glow' in our faint memories of it - That's the way I see Wendy, Lisa and Prince.

I mean, something like 'All My Dreams' - that's straight up genius, genreless, unique, fun, inventive, artistic, impressionistic, daring, something all it's own.

That's the rather sentimental metaphor I've decided to use, so apoligises again, if it makes any of you throw up on it's sacharin aftertaste.

WaterUdrink said:

I think it's pretty clear which side of the fence I sit - I only had to see a couple of small pictures of Wendy standing near Prince on stage and I was rushing for my 85/86 era bootlegs and writing the above diatribe of slushiness.

dewalliz said:

Your post is so on point. Like you, the '85-'86 era was my least favorite of the '80's.

It's ridiculous how Lisa and Wendy are deified on this site.I think I read today in one of the Brit threads that there would be no Prince without Wendy and Lisa.

At this point in the thread, it seems to me that those who have a real appreciation for and understanding of the art of songwriting have a greater appreciation for and understanding of Lisa & Wendy. Who else has Prince ever worked so intimately with during the process of musical compositions and their production? No other artists outside of Lisa & Wendy have been able to dip their hands into Prince's clay (and vice versa) and produce such wonderful works of art, the likes of which had never been created by Prince alone, before or since. If you listen to the Wendy & Lisa albums (i.e. their "sound" separate from Prince), there is no mistaking that they indeed had a huge sonorous influence on Prince's output during the time they were with him.
[Edited 2/15/06 21:23pm]

dewalliz said:

That's fair enough. I agree, there was definate cross-pollination, since both artists work after '86 has often twinkled with their other's distant influence.

For me, it's never about the musicianship - I mean, if you're in Prince's band, you can play, no doubt about it, I like band members that add their unique character to Prince's output, something individual, spicy or polar to the expected. I liked the 94/95 NPG for the same reason, they were a great band, made up of great individuals, and why the revolving door on the NPG these past few years leaves me increasingly unconcerned about who is standing on the stage with Prince.

Not to pee in the punch or diminish the work but W & L were basically good employees. Prince was a young, hungry, ambitious, mulatto artist. His band reflected his influences ie. Sly, James etc.. The reason Little Richard, Jimi Hendrix, Sly Stone, Prince, Michael Jackson and most other legends were successful, aside from raw talent was white appropval. The majority of the record buying public luv this guy w/ these 2 white women cuz theyre white. There are certain things, particularly in the past, that Black men had to do to get the industry behind them. In the beginning Prince had above average skills, a brilliant marketing plan. The girls fit the profile. He grew into the mega talent that we know now by sheer will, and determination but at the start, it was a bit of luck, and a lot of white approval. W & L helped get that approval. They had as much influence as anyone or anything else around him at the time. People's disproportionate obsession w/ them really completely misses the artist. Its amazing.

wendy and lisa suck!!

JonnyApplesauce said:

so uhhh...?uestlove's appreciaton of them is a race thing? ditto eryka badu? neil finn? seal? sheryl crow?

btw: have you met Funksway? The new band fronted by Eryka Badu?

JonnyApplesauce said:

that's not peeing in the punch, it gulping the purple kool-aid. whatever anyone's opinion of them -- they were MUCH more than "good employees." they were major contributors.

"how did we lose each other's sound?" prince

Those who want to turn this into a race thing seemingly know nothing of Lisa and Wendy's songwriting skills and true musicianiship. Until you start talking about that, then...

please!


edit: nice pic, sos!!
[Edited 2/15/06 21:20pm]

JonnyApplesauce said:

See now here is where the thread veers of onto the dirt-track into Lockville, population: zero.

I agree, that Prince having a largely caucasian band with two prominent female members and being fair skinned himself probably did his commercial career all kinds of favours, and Prince would've been aware of this and probably used it to his advantage (the quote about 'The Family' and how Prince wanted 'some of that Duran Duran money' shows he knew this - He took The Time and essentially stuck white faces on the cover of the record in an attempt to make a successor to his now singer and guitarless Black funk troupe). I also think it hindered as well - The Black Album was created as a reaction to this, and I think it also played a part (of many) in the Revolution disbanding - I do recall reading Wendy wasn't so thrilled with Prince hanging out with the Parade/SOTT band dancers instead of the core Revolution themselves who had been around for years as contributing musicians and friends, not just paid lackies who got a lucky break to shag Prince's sloppy seconds on the back of the tour bus..


I don't think this can be used as a criticism or justification for the distain for the music Wendy & Lisa contributed to though, because it never sounds like you're listening to something that is ententionally 'whitened' for a mass audience - To me any way. It's a honest mix of the elements and influences of the people there - Adding Eric to the band didn't make the sound more white, it turned the sound into more of a pastiche of the Black funk groups Prince was influenced by.

Wendy & Lisa added a unique string of song-writing ability to Prince's bow that I don't think can be brushed off as them being tools to get Prince's videos on prime-time MTV instead of the grave-yard slots.
[Edited 2/15/06 21:23pm]