homeandmantel said:

I have no problem with that ! Every musician is influenced by his musical environment.

EmancipationLover said:

Well-said post!!

BeautifulFrance said:

I agree with a lot what you have said, just that I do not really share many people's opinion on Tony M. (he might not be top-class, but there are worse people out there, and at least Prince's material was good).

90's Prince is a complex issue and probably worth a thread on its own. I think most of his 90's work is great, but would agree with you on certain points.

First, the WB dispute ruined a lot. A brilliant record like TGE was mainly overlooked because of its delayed release. I do not blame Prince for his decision to go independent, but his fault was to sign that 1992 contract. Some thought during that period would have saved him from a lot.

Second, I agree with you on bad album compilations for the years 1998 and 1999. No one here would probably speak of the "bad 90's" if he had not ended them with NPS and Rave. Make the strongest material of the two albums into one album and drop the remaining material on the floor of Paisley Park so someone can bootleg it, and you have (in theory) a strong period of Prince work (and maybe one of his best records).

Third, I agree that some people in the advisor role could have provided the help needed. I mean, co-musicians like W&L (not exactly these two people, but maybe someone else). The people surrounding him in the 90's were employees, not co-musicians. The only exception for a short period of time was Kirky J, but I wouldn't really call him someone approaching Prince's level. A brilliant musician in his camp was Larry Graham, but their relationship seemed to be focused on religion. And Mayte? Sexy, beautiful ,but not exactly a rocket scientist...

So, in conclusion, yes, I do think that someone in the Prince camp during the 90's having W&L's musical stature could have been helpful.

Larry G spelling edit
[Edited 1/23/06 14:26pm]

BeautifulFrance said:

another co-sign quote and I agreed!!!
[Edited 1/23/06 14:17pm]

I was under the impression that W&L's conmtributions to SOTT were all but erased save for some vocals backup and Beautiful Night. The work they did on his songs were discarded. Remembering the bootleg Intimate Moments, you hear Prince playing several tunes solo on piano. 17 Days, Strange Relationship and more that we are familiar with, W&L on them and not. So it seems to me that Prince does have the concepts and melodies and lyrics at hand and he gave W&L the carte' blanche to do more with them. He said as much in that 1985 interview talking how much faster recording goes now that he has "the girls helping"-paraphrased.

Lots of peopel came on board during that time amid mass appeal of Purple Rain which would make sense as to why several find that era th e most endearing. But as some have mentioned, Princ emade endilible marks pre and post Wendy and Lisa. I think he really gelled with Sheila E era SOTT/Lovesexy people. Sure the Wendy era Revolution brought forth an different gel but that isnt the only high spirited and inspirational music produced.

One thing to be said: A Revolution band members father spoke about Princes attitudes back in the day recently. He stated that Prince had always had an issue with trusting his band members. He never was totally at ease and never felt they actually loved him for his person. Understandable with his upbringing. Some of th e followin incantations of th e Revolution were with those form his neighborhood and whom he knew growing up even if they were somewhat hired secutiy and dance hands (Wallly, Brooke, Jerome) and whomever else. But that did ring a sense of camraderie that Prince also felt comfortable in. "You call them bodyguards but I call them my friends..."

Having said that, a lot of people think Prince couldn't even play paino before meeting W&L. They think they introduced him to other seminal artists. They fail to realize that Prince himself had outright love and knowledge for Joni Mitchell and others on his own. Hell, he put Jonis name on Controversy cover and thanked her. He made Dirty Mind, the punk rock influenced release. He opened for The Rolling Stones . All before the official W&L era. When they came aboard he went Sly Stone. And its almost akin to that. Sly got critcism for his up with people stance and went to Riot Goin On material and drugs. Prince almost did the same thing. ATWIAD to Black album, SOTT and more.

There is however no denying the feeling tha Wendy gave Prince. Read DMSR and see how Wendy was the one to pull Princes underarm hair while he rehearsed on piano, something no other would/could do. Its well documented she brought Prince out of his shell like no other. So did Sheila though. Most female band members do. However it does appear Wendy was a lil brash and some could say big for her britches. Brown Mark has went on record with his dismay at Wendys immediate position. Not that she didnt deserve it (questinable) but he stated many had attempted to make bond with Prince before and he just wasn't having it.

Its difficult . But one thing I noticed this weekend while record shopping at a great L.A. based record store. They had Parade album sealed vinyl. On the back cover? Wendy. Full album sized photo. Only Wendy. And at some shows last year, seeing Wendy come out with Prince and Sheila at some aftershows, was a feeling that was indescribable. There was nothing to do but leave the wariness/pride/rigid thinking behind.

I don't want to paraphrase what I wrote earlier, but it sounds like it is solved...

Wendy and Lisa had a huge contribution to Prince's music. That is well documented and stated by all around Prince, including Prince himself.

Why is it that people can't answer THAT question, and have to change the question to "Was Prince's music better with them?" That is an entirely different subject and one that can be debated back and forth forever because it is subjective. Obviously if Prince only did 3 good albums, we'd know why, but he is a sponge and absorbs everything and every influence he can. You'd have to be blind not to realize that he got a great deal from Wendy and Lisa... for better or worse.

The question isn't "Was Prince's genius based on Wendy and Lisa?", it is "were their contributions embellished"? The only answer is NO, THEIR CONTRIBUTIONS WERE WELL DOCUMENTED AND VERY VITAL TO THAT ERA. Any other answer to that ignores history and those who lived it and have gone on record stating it as fact (Prince, Susan Rogers, Peggy Mac, Wendy, Lisa, BrownMark, etc.)

Now if you want to debate the merits of their era with Prince, start a threat and debate that. The question at the top of this column has been answered... and answered in a way that leaves no doubt.

BeautifulFrance said:

Actually, the bulk of SOTT was recorded as part of what would become the last (though unreleased) Revolution album. Most of it is virtually untouched in form. There are still pieces of the Melvoin/Coleman family all over the record, especially Susannah.

As far as the Black Album is concerned, there is nothing innovative here. I really like this album personally but this record has ALL the faults that people would later criticize his 90's work for... LoveSexy, again, is a really uneven affair.

None of this is proof that the lack of W&L had anything to do with the quality of his output but that fact that such a drop happened at that point clouds the issue undeniably.

EmancipationLover said:

I quite agree with this... I'd take and TGE over ALMOST any of his 80's output.

DiamondGirl said:

You know I've heard this statement made over and over again, and I often repeat it myself. I've even heard Wendy make reference to songs where their input was later re-recorded note for note or removed BUT the same tracks that appear on SOTT as appear on the unreleased Revolution album, Dream Factory, are virtually indistinguishable from one another outside of editing changes here and there. As the story goes, Dream Factory featured even heavier input from W&L than the ones before it so this leaves us with a great big question mark as to what their contributions actually are.



I've never heard the rumor that Prince couldn't play Piano before knowing W&L but that's pretty funny. LOL Otoh, Lisa was around Prince for quite a long while (Dirty Mind) and I can certainly believe she introduced him to Joni's more adventurous music. I've heard that on more than one occasion. Plus, the reference on Controversy could fit in with that.

jtfolden said:

I have Dream Factory with their work on it. The 2 cd one. They sound totally different the ones with W&L on them. The others tht sound barely indistinguishable (differences) are ones they had no hand in anyways.



I've never heard the rumor that Prince couldn't play Piano before knowing W&L but that's pretty funny. LOL Otoh, Lisa was around Prince for quite a long while (Dirty Mind) and I can certainly believe she introduced him to Joni's more adventurous music. I've heard that on more than one occasion. Plus, the reference on Controversy could fit in with that.[/quote]

Possibly, but with Princes background in Mn where most of th e radio was rock and pop as many Mn Royal Court have stated, it is ri-goddamn-diculous to think that Prince was never exposed to Jonmi Mithcell and others that W&L fans think W&L were responsible for.

lisa stated somewhere that she introduced prince to her favorite album The Hissing Of Summer Lawns..

i think its a quote from their website...or from a rolling stone's interview or something..i remember the quote though cause i bought the album specifically because of that lil bit o trivia...

DiamondGirl said:

What songs that appear both on Dream Factory and SOTT sound "totally different" between each album, to you?

Just off the top of my head, Strange Relationship, for example, is based on the mix/arrangement done by W&L and includes their performances on Sitar, flute, tambourine and congas. Slow Love features W&L, with Wendy on Guitar. Susannah co-write the lyrics of another track and her backing vox are all over the place. These are just the credits we know...



In Joni's illustrious 5 decade career, I think she's had a total of one top 10 hit so radio really wouldn't have much to do with it. However,I have no doubt that Prince had heard of Joni (I think there was a mention by Joni that she even remembers him at one of her concerts) but it's quite possible, as I said, that he easn't familiar with her more adventurous works, which Lisa at least was...

sosgemini said:

Yup, yup... I've always wanted to hear Lisa play something of Joni's. I think Lisa is one of the few who could really do justice to some of Joni's music on albums like Blue and The Hissing Of Summer Lawns.

madhouseman said:

I disagree with you. I, like many others, think W&L fans embellish everything W&L do and have done. They had a big influence on Prince back in the day but just like many other musicians. But Prince influenced them big time as well.

Something I have noticed is that Prince has been a big target for many ex fans. Whatever great he did was due to other people influencing him. Everytime he releases some average music, it is all due to him. There is nobody to influence him anymore.

And for those who think the Black Album was not great. I think the opposite. The black album is an amazing funky version of Dirty Mind.

Isn't it about time to move on people? I love the Revolution albums no matter who did what.. P did enough brilliant work without W&L to rock my world...

Wendy and Lisa's career is DEAD. So obviously they needed P as bad as he apparently needed them... I'm afraid that when Wendy's 90 years old, she'll still be telling interviewers how she and Lisa co-wrote "Sometimes It Snows"... it's kinda sad actually... it reminds me of Al Bundy always going on about his highschool football days...

MartyMcFly said:

huh, where did that come from?

if wendy and lisa's careers are dead then i guess that means so is sheila e's because the girls are actually working more now then she.

but in the end, you think their career is dead? good for you..i dont. next!!

sosgemini said:

Well spoken... and such good argumentation...

BeautifulFrance said:

Paranoid much?? Madhouseman put this thread to bed already, so give it up.

Besides, the same "freaks" who think that Prince couldn't play piano or do anything worthwhile with out W&L are basically no different than the freaks who get rabid at the thought that other people might have actually helped Prince write or make some of his songs.

Both attitudes are fanatical extremes, and should not be taken seriously.

As Madhouseman said, if you want to start a thread about which era of Prince's music is better, pre, during, post W&L etc. go ahead. But that's not the topic here.

GaryMF said:

Well first of all, I live in a democracy like you do and freedom of speech means something over here as well.
Secondly I'm right on topic. I disagree with madhouseman who thinks the thread is sorted and obviously he makes things go his way.
I was just stating I disagree with him and that yes YES...W&L's contribution to prince's work is embellished by W&L's fans. Nothing more really.
And it does not mean they have no talent even if their solo career has been very disappointing to me cuz I expected a bit too much from them probably.
[Edited 1/24/06 7:58am]

madhouseman said:

This is the end of this thread, anything said beyond Madhouseman's post is just rambling and will have no point.

WonderU said:

INTELLECTUAL TERRORISM !!!

WonderU said:

I think if a thread has come to an end or not should be either decided by the WHOLE community of members (by not posting anymore) or by a mod (by locking it). That an ordinary prince.org member seems to think he has the right to end a thread seems quite strange to me.

EmancipationLover said:

i dont think WonderU meant it that way...

It's just that many people are going off-topic.

Tje topic of the thread was "Is W&L's contribution embellished"? Not
was Prince's music better with or without their contribution?"

The original question is open to interpretation... i.e. is their contribution embellished in the actual documentation we have vs. do some fans attribute more to them than is deserved.

The facts show that W&L did contribute in sginfiicant ways (documented above) so the known contributions are true.

If some fans go overboard and say things like they wrote "all of Parade or ATWAD" clearlny that is stupid and an "embellishment" but I don't think any rational, thinking person is suggestng that.

Anyway, when people start throwing out albums they think are better than other albums (e.g. BLack ablum vs. Parade vs Dirty mind etc.) that is off topic and why people are saying the topic is now dead.
[Edited 1/24/06 12:36pm]

BeautifulFrance said:

Nothing intellectual about it...

MartyMcFly said:

When some people want to prevent you from carrying on speaking freely about something, it is called INTELLECTUAL TERRORISM...uh, that's an expression used in France anyway.
[Edited 1/25/06 1:23am]

BeautifulFrance said:

Those French... they have a word for everything!

madhouseman said:

Cuz we like to !

Maybe if Prince hadn't fallen out with Wendy and Lisa he wouldn't have recored such dumb ass songs as "Gett Off", "Diamonds and Pearls", "The Most Beautiful Girl In The World". (Although people on the Org seem to love those songs).

They woul have said "Prince 'Could you be the most beautiful girl in the world?'

'Is that a cheesy chat-up line or what ? Not one of your most sincere song writing lyrics.

Really who were you trying to impress with that ??'

I reckon they are the ONLY ones who woul be really honest with him.

I'm NOT a huge fan of theres but I do think they didn't just tell Prince everything was great if they didn't think it.