WaterUdrink said:

Life can be so nice is ok, but, "Splash" and "All My Dreams" are corny as all get out anyway... so you can give all the credit you want to W&L for those.

xpertluva said:

Thanks much for that!!!

7salles said:

Not on a Prince site anyway....

Ifsixwuz9 said:

I just knew you were going to say something like that!

Prince or Wendy and Lisa have written many a corny song, especially the former. So if All My Dreams is a corny song, it is the best the alleged author(s) have ever written.

P.S.: Nice to add another installment to that five-year long argument we've been having.

Aerogram said:

So Wendy and Lisa did the music for "Life Can Be So Nice" or was it a collaboration with Prince? It always sounded to me like Prince had a heavy hand in that one.
[Edited 1/20/06 22:25pm]

Aerogram said:

Speaking of All My Dreams... I seem to recall reading somewhere, at some point, that the lyrics to this song reference a real event involving W&L... Anyone remember? Was it the part about painting a train?

xpertluva said:

I think Wendy has mentioned that during the Parade era and after, Prince would give them (W&L) songs in skeletal form and they would flesh them out, such as Christopher Tracy's Parade (originally Wendy's Parade). They, also, pulled several songs out of the vault and reworked them, like Strange Relationship.

jtfolden said:

Ok, thanks. I'm assuming this was the case with "Life Can Be So Nice"? Seems like I read somewhere that they were given hundreds of songs to compllete that still remain in the vault.

Aerogram said:

Hi Areo You know I'm right deep down in your heart.

And I think it's been a little longer than five years we'be been arguing over this. "All My Deams" is superduper cornball.


Oh, I agree P has definitely done many other cornball songs but those two are the most revered amoung fans for reasons that are just beyond me.

Ifsixwuz9 said:

OMG my boyfriend is obsessed with All my dreams....and he is NOT a Prince fan!

Ifsixwuz9 said:

whats to understand? to accept peoples opinions and keep on enjoying what you enjoy..i am not confused to bemused by folks that love kirky j era prince...i just go along doing what im doing...

i still dont understand why people get so frustrated by other peoples positive enjoyment of something..no matter what it is in life..if someone likes peanut butter cookies, supper...i aint gonna spend my time "hatin" on em for it..

Krystal666 said:

Same with mine. The last time he told me the song makes him feel all warm and fuzzy about the future. Now I don't care if it's corny or not. Not too many songs truly appeal to our faith in ourselves.

Ifsixwuz9 said:

I guess it's like the song Adore. Some people think Prince piled it up a bit too high and I say yeah he did pile things up very high but see it doesn't fall apart. Somehow the whole edifice stands, against all laws of musical physics,

To me the song is so rich in textures -- just the different voices are interesting to me and the whole thing sounds so ridiculously giddy it's infectious. So if that is cornball, then so be it.

And yes, it's probably been more than five years. For the record, you and I first argued about this on AMP in 2000 or 2001, and we've agreed to disagree ever since across a dozen threads.

Aerogram said:

All the reasons you like the song are all the rasons I hate it. As I've said before it sounds like a show tune gone terribly wrong. Splash is just well ...blah to me.

Anyway it's always nice to fun at each other over "All My Dreams". Same time next year ... ok?

By the way is RDHull still around?

sosgemini said:

Sos hun, there are many other things to get frustrated about in Princeland. This isn't one of them to me. I just voiced my opinion on those two songs and why as far as I'm concerned W&L can have full credit for them. You can like it all you want and I'll still have my opinion on them. No harm, no foul.

Areo and I, as you can, see go way back on this debate. That's why I bantered back and forth with him on it. He's one of the few folks from the "old days" that I still see around these boards. I tell him the song sucks, and he gives me a detailed reason why he love it so. It's just what we do.

There is NO question that they had a great deal of influence in Prince's music and sound. The debate sounds has turned into "did they make his music better?" That is a different subject. Personally, (based on interviews with many of the people around the subject, and a quote I got from Prince himself for an article that I wrote about this subject in UPTOWN magazine) they did influence his music. IMHO, for the better, but that is a subject for a different link.

Wendy has gone on record with the following:
"When we wrote 'Purple Rain' (the album) that was the beginning of our collaboration. The next record, ATWIAD, was a lot of the three of us sitting down and saying "let's write this." He'd have the two of us go in and do arrangements-string arrangements, vocal arrangements- and the guitar and keyboard parts."

Susan Rogers gave a quote about that as well:
"They meant so much to him that I can say with 100% accuracy that his music wasn't the same after they left."

In the mid 90's, an email, Prince (or at least a representative from Paisley Park) stated to me the following: "Wendy and Lisa had a major impact on The Artist's work...gave a new perspective on the possibilities & options available."

I don't know how much more plain I can make it. There are people out there who think they know more about this than Wendy, Susan Rogers and Prince, but they are wrong. They weren't there and have no new facts, only opinions based on their emotions. The evidence is overwhelming and could not be any more detailed. Accepting it is just a hard pill for some to swallow.

The bottom line is that Wendy and Lisa had a HUGE amount of contribution to Prince's music. His genius is to take that influence and make it his own. He's done that with Little Richard, James Brown, Sly Stone, Earth Wind and Fire, and many other famous artists... why are people so shocked that he'd be influenced by those around him? That doesn't make him less of a genius, in fact it makes him more of one when he can filter their contributions into something that still says "made by Prince".

Madhouseman, that was the smartest and sanest thing I've read on this thread! Well done.

(although I think #2 would be my post above about how W&L contributing to the usic and Prince's genius are not mutually exclusive )

GaryMF said:

You are too kind. Thanx

madhouseman said:

WonderU said:

Very Well said Madhouseman.

Also, from the dramatic drop in the quality of his music after 87, you have to asume that his loss of his curect bandmates at that exact point, had something to do with that.

homeandmantel said:

Yeah right : SOTT, Black Album and Lovesexy are easily forgotten by W&L fans. Not to mention that the SOTT and Lovesexy tours were absolutely amazing and that the bands h gathered for this two tours were even tighter than the Revolution !

BeautifulFrance said:

C'mon, im not a Wendy & Lisa fan, but the bulk os SOT was completed while the revolution was still together, im just saying its painfully obvious that after the breakup, the quality of the music took a huge dive, a lot a great tracks here and there "7" is good example but over all kinda silly as a whole.

homeandmantel said:

I disagree. The fall in terms of quality happened 3 years after they left.

The only reason it happened is because it is impossible for any artist, genius or not genius, to renew your music year after year like Prince has since Dirty Mind.

Every great band or every great artist reach the top and then whatever they do it is never the same.

I doubt that Springsteen will release one day something as good as Born to Run or Darkness on the edge of town. And he is still with the E stree band, a great source of inspiration for him. They are still amazing on stage but their albums, even when they are good, are nowhere near the old 70s stuff.

Look at david Bowie. His music is still top quality and his stage performances are fantastic but come on, he will never release a Scary Monsters anymore; Even on his last album, he has collaborated with Tony Visconti again and the magic just did not happen. Even if the album is good...it is simply not great, nothing mind blowing.

So Prince and W&L have met just at the right time when they had still many creative ideas. I'm sure that if they produced a record together today, the music would be good but nowhere near Parade or Purple Rain.

It was a question of timing. Now it is simply over and Prince knows that there is nothing more he can obtain from them. He knows how to get the best out of people and then kicks your butt as soon as he knows it cannot be any better.
Whether you like it or not, Prince knows when he has to move on.

And regarding SOTT it is a great one man's band album. The production is pure Prince. He does not sound at all like the Revolution stuff. Many tunes are minimalist. So even if W&L have played on some songs, the whole concept sounds very much like Prince.
[Edited 1/23/06 12:36pm]

BeautifulFrance said:

yeah...but on the flip side of that look at kate bush, bjork, johhny cash and the shocker: Neil Diamond

and even Springstein shocked his fans by releasing The Rising.....so, it can happen..the question is, does prince care enough to make it happen again?

BeautifulFrance said:

"Every great band or every great artist reach the top and then whatever they do it is never the same.

I doubt that Springsteen will release one day something as good as Born to Run or Darkness on the edge of town. And he is still with the E stree band, a great source of inspiration for him. They are still amazing on stage but their albums, even when they are good, are nowhere near the old 70s stuff.

Look at david Bowie. His music is still top quality and his stage performances are fantastic but come on, he will never release a Scary Monsters anymore; Even on his last album, he has collaborated with Tony Visconti again and the magic just did not happen. Even if the album is good...it is simply not great, nothing mind blowing.

So Prince and W&L have met just at the right time when they had still many creative ideas. I'm sure that if they produced a record together today, the music would be good but nowhere near Parade or Purple Rain."




You have a point there, and you could add some of my other favorites to that list ,Sir Paul, James Brown, Stevie Wonder....on and on

But... you have to agree that his bandmates, whether W&L or Matt Fink, Dez or whomever, they helped make "HIS" music better.
[Edited 1/23/06 13:29pm]

Ifsixwuz9 said:

I guess we can agree there is something special to love or to hate in this song, only with a passion.

I last saw RD's username at NPGMC. He may be here under another name, but chances are good he's still over there, where I'm sure they like All My Dreams plenty.

sosgemini said:

I love kate Bush but she releases stuff every 12 years now ! Her last opus was very good (she is not capable of making bad music !) but it was not her best work.
I'm not a big Bjork and cash connaisseurs so I don't know.

Well I was trying to say is that Prince was releasing albums every year or so changing almost everytime his music style, his sound, his shows and sometimes his musicians. He went thru the 80s working like a madman. What happened back in the day was totally unreal.
There are very few talents out there who are capable of coming up with great albums every year.

He met W&L at the right time for him in his career. I'm not convined they would make great music together nowadays. They were his "white side" and he is now totally into his "black side" (music wise).

ps : talking about Springsteen (I love him !) but the Rising was more something to do with the exceprional historical circumstances at the time. The album was good (live it was 100 times better) but the album is often overproduced. I mean it was great and all but nothing like hi best stuff. I hear no "The River" on it. You know what I mean ?

I think we tend to be very harsh with prince. he has given us too much and we act sometimes like spoiled children (myself included).
[Edited 1/23/06 13:54pm]

Just to add my 2 cents here...

I still don't really see the point. Prince made a lot of good (and some not so good) music before W&L joined, he made a lot of good (and some not so good) music with W&L, and he made a lot of good (and some not so good) music after they left (or were fired or whatever). The decision about the percentage of good and not so good for each period might be up to you.

Missing credits? I'm pretty sure about it as he seems to have a tendency not to give credits too much. But you can say that for other band members too.

Did he benefit from W&L? Imo, yes. I think their biggest contribution was to broaden his view of music, introduce him to different styles and all that. That helped him to change, to make unexpected music. This is what makes him Prince somehow imo, always doing what you never had expected. On the other hand, the fans of the early Prince (until "Purple Rain") will probably contradict now and wish W&L on the moon.

The question "who did what for SOTT" will probably never be exactly answered. There is just one thing I find interesting: I see the three albums ATWIAD, Parade and SOTT, in spite of many differences, more or less being in the same category: multi-stylistic. The difference of SOTT to the former two is that it is thinner and clearer in production, not so overloaded. Like something a more experienced kid does with his toys after the first excitement of playing with it. And, coincidentally, it is the best of the three imo (I know many will disagree here, but SOTT still is many people's favourite, including me).

So, somehow, Prince has created his best work in that direction after his muses had left and he could play around on his own. Just remarkable I think.

Btw, there is brilliant Prince work without one single note by W&L - the O+> album, The Gold Experience, TRC, just to name some.

This is not meant to put W&L down, I think they are brilliant, I just also think we should keep things in place somehow.

EmancipationLover said:

TRC is to me a a musical masterpiece. (don't hate me people for that !)

I think Prince could have come up in the 90s with albums as good as PR , SOTT but he has had more nd more difficulties in editing his stuff. There have been too many bad choices in terms of arrangements, sometimes made at the last minute or fillers added when other tunes recorded in the same sessions were 100 times better.

And more than anything else, Prince has "tried" to sound black again like if he was fearing to lose the black audience with all hi pop/rochk 80s stuff made with W&L. And we know how terrible his choices have been. I mean Tony M, come on !!!

One thing I must admit is that W&L, if they had been around, would have helped making the right choices like wich songs to select for a record.