PurpleKnight said:

By no means am I saying you're not entitled to your opinion. I'm just pointing how redundant your opinion is. But that's just my opinion.

I couln't agree more. Prince's creativity has the urgency of a knitting circle these days. I used to cream my undies the day a new Prince record came out. Now I listen to his music and blush in embarassment for him. It's way too safe. His new stuff sounds more dated than his masterpieces. I can listen to Sign Of The Times and be totally blown away to this day by the amazing arrangements. His new stuff is so dreary and B-O-R-I-N-G.

It's perplexing, I've said this before. He doesn't have a balance of BODY, MIND & SPIRIT.....

He has put all his energy into his spiritual quest and ignored everything else.

JonnyApplesauce said:

Dude. WORD.

U-All B rightin books upIn here.

This is a great thread. Nice way to start off the new year. My point of view is this. One of the thing that made me love Prince back in the day was the fact that the him and the music had this "Fuck You" attitude and it was like nothing we'd heard before. Even when it had to do with God, there was still a take it or leave it approach and I loved that. When Prince starts trying to do things like everyone else, then that's where the problems start. Whether or not you liked the album, TRC is the last album to be like that. He said what he wanted to say and made the music with HIM in mind not anyone else. I pray to God that he can stop worrying about all of us, fans and non-fans and just do his thing cause that's when he shines.

As for the energy part, I agree with a lot of you on that. I laughed when PurpleKnight mentioned Loose! cause I've been listening to P's music from that period and there was an energy there that was just amazing and that made the music that much more memorable. I hope 3121 brings the fire back. Not just for me and all of us, but for Prince as well. If he's true to himself on this one, then all the success he wants, and you know he still wants to be big, will finally come his way.
[Edited 1/10/06 17:39pm]

NouveauDance said:

I should have known you would've replied to this before I could edit my comments. I don't see you as a "fronter" And I pretty much can empathize with the bulk of what you're saying.

However, I still say at this point to expect passion and energy from a 50 year old artist is a waste of time. What I do expect is a good effort. TRC had it... Xpectation had it, NEWS had it. Musicology, for what it's worth, had it (except for Illusion Pimp, and Life O the Party) I just think at this point in Prince's career all you should expect is a good effort.

PurpleKnight said:

you are expecting something... you must be if you feel the need to "express grievances" (a.k.a fancy way to say complain) year after year after year...

I still hear amazing talent, heart and ambition in all of his music music since The Rainbow Children. Is it comparable to or better than his prior work? In my honest opinion... no it isn't. Well it's better than the Emancipation through Rave phase. I swear some of you guys are just using "passion", "heart" and "fire" as masks for your inability to accept Prince as an old man. In all probability, he'll never be explicit, daring or innovative again. Show me a 48 year old musician who is...
[Edited 1/10/06 20:46pm]

gargamelgibson said:

Great post!

gargamelgibson said:

Expressing disappointment has nothing to do with expecting anything. I'm just assessing the situation as it is and giving my opinion. Nothing more, nothing less.

Why do people think you have to be dull just because you're old? It's not like Prince is in his 90's and has arthritis in both hands. The man is just as talented as he ever was. Why do some fans give his age as an excuse for not being anywhere near as ambitious, passionate and heartfelt in his new songs?

Okay, just about every famous old composer, to answer your question of who was still daring at 48 or older. Hell, Roger Waters is in his 60's and he wrote a damn opera! Anyways, Prince has always been the exception, and I don't see why he has to suddenly record dull and safe music when he's more talented than most other musical legends his age.

PurpleKnight said:

Okay PurpleKnight...let's dig deeper into this...I don't think people are just saying that you have to be dull when you get close to 50 years old...Here's the point: We all know Prince as the musician's musician; we know him as a two-fisted performer who takes no prisoners; we know him as a musical innovator who has taken on the recording industry and lived to tell the tale...BUT!!!!! A great part of the Prince legend is the middle-finger-flipping rebel; the artist you wouldn't want your mom to listen to..The sex god; the maverick who mixed fucking, spirituality, and avant garde musicianship together to produce a non-conforming sound and style that just happened to go over well with the public-at-large...But as with most great, iconic "rebels" time has a way of mellowing out even the most eccentric,groundbreaking of artists...There are the lone exceptions (Miles Davis, Iggy Pop for example...)

However, the reason why the likes of Iggy Pop continues to live on the musical edge is because his career success was more about the acclaim he received for pushing the rock n roll envelope than actual commercial success (Oh yeah, I would hardly call the great Roger Waters making groundgreaking, risk-taking, passionate music in his golden years; He made a opera with The Wall...buy it some time...) Prince reached the top of the charts with his persona as a musical outlaw intact. Here is a man who tasted the peak of commercial success and artistic acclaim, a rarity in the music industry. When you've completely gone over the edege (This is a cat who made a song about having sex with his sister!!!!...) what is the next groundbreaking, shocking, passionate thing you can pull off: Get married, publicly display your chops as a true "musician' sans the shock value; and reclaim the influences that first inspired you in the the first place(i.e. carlos santana, James Brown, Sly Stone...). This is a natural progression. Is it the groundbreaking Prince we know and love? Well, no.

What you will find is most "rebels" and "groundbreaking" artists that have had true "commercial" impact tend to go back to the past in their later years (Neil Young, Robert Plant for ex.) Prince is no different...But mostly when your spirit is that of a stone-cold bad ass, more times than not, age mellows you out...A 40 plus year-old Prince's version of breaking the rules is releasing an album like The Rainbow Children...To him, it's not so much about making the groundbreaking "music" of say Dirty Mind or Parade; it's about being at peace with his legacy and career and being a plain old musician...If you want a risk-taking artist, there are plently of newer performers, producers and singers to lach onto...Bitching and wishing that a damn near 50 year old man can continue or recapture his glory is maddening... Like a aging championship-level prize fighter, the man deserves to be able to do whatever he wants at this point in his career...Let the man live...
[Edited 1/10/06 23:17pm]

murph said:

First of all, the opera I am referring to by Roger Waters is Ca Ira, one he spent the last ten years creating. If that isn't ambitious, I don't know what is. I use Waters as a good example of an old legend not resting on his laurels because he hasn't just relied on his legacy in Floyd as a solo artist. He's made compelling albums with interesting themes and concepts, despite being old.

Yes, Prince deserves to do whatever he wants in his career. You point being what? It's not like I'm stopping him. I'm just addressing the fact that I think Prince is less than what he could be as a studio artist right now, and by a mile. I realize that rebels can't be rebellious forever, but Prince's music now doesn't sound heartfelt or ambitous even for a man his age. I don't expect him to be able to touch me the way he did on masterpieces like Purple Rain or 1999, but I also don't see why he has to phone it in, either. He's very much above that.

TRC was ambitious, challenging, and urgent; you could tell upon first listen that the songs meant a lot to him. That's the only thing I wish was still there. I don't want him to swear again, I don't want him to sing blatantly about sex again, and I'm not asking him to make any specific style of music (unlike a lot of fans who want him to make a pure funk or guitar heavy album, etc.). I just personally wish he'd return to albums that really clearly mean something personal to him. That's where urgency is derived from, and even when I don't enjoy the material necessarily (AKA TRC), at least it's Prince doing what he does best; being a true artist in every sense of the word.

He deserves to rest on his laurels and just relax, and I won't hold it against him for doing so. But that won't stop it from being a damn shame given his still considerable talent.

PurpleKnight said:

Two words: Larry. Graham.

SDNafka said:

I think you may be right....

PurpleKnight said:

The answer is simple: because some people are fucking idiots who've convinced themselves that only the young can have passion for their work; only the young can talk about sex; only the young can be loud and energetic and make people sit up and pay attention.

When fans start making comments like, "Prince shouldn't be doing (blank) at his age." it's pathetic. He's not even 48years old, for Christ's sake! The fact that so many fans apparently think this makes him ancient is sad. He's not young man anymore, but he's hardly old.

PurpleKnight said: "First of all, the opera I am referring to by Roger Waters is Ca Ira, one he spent the last ten years creating. If that isn't ambitious, I don't know what is. I use Waters as a good example of an old legend not resting on his laurels because he hasn't just relied on his legacy in Floyd as a solo artist. He's made compelling albums with interesting themes and concepts, despite being old."

Murph says: Great point...But i'm well aware of Waters' long produced Opera (Ca Ira)..My point in bringing up The Wall is that Waters has already walked that trail...There is nothing new or particularly groundbreaking about the man creating another opera...And by the way, a lot of Pink Floyd's fans were saying the same thing about Waters and his groups' albums by the early '80s...That they were well past their prime group wise and solo wise...

PurpleKnight says: "Yes, Prince deserves to do whatever he wants in his career. You point being what? It's not like I'm stopping him. I'm just addressing the fact that I think Prince is less than what he could be as a studio artist right now, and by a mile. I realize that rebels can't be rebellious forever, but Prince's music now doesn't sound heartfelt or ambitous even for a man his age. I don't expect him to be able to touch me the way he did on masterpieces like Purple Rain or 1999, but I also don't see why he has to phone it in, either. He's very much above that."

Murph says: I respect your point P.K....you are a passionate knowledgeable fan, and if I came off like an asshole in my first post, my fault...But my main point is a huge part of Prince's greatness was his rebelliousness...I never thought the man could bring back the greatness of Sign or Purple Rain...For 20 years Prince was keeping up with the balls-out rebel image he first cultivated in the '80s in one fashion or another; I think his version of being a rebel is turning back the clock...He just wants to be a musician...

PurpleKnight says: "TRC was ambitious, challenging, and urgent; you could tell upon first listen that the songs meant a lot to him. That's the only thing I wish was still there. I don't want him to swear again, I don't want him to sing blatantly about sex again, and I'm not asking him to make any specific style of music (unlike a lot of fans who want him to make a pure funk or guitar heavy album, etc.). I just personally wish he'd return to albums that really clearly mean something personal to him. That's where urgency is derived from, and even when I don't enjoy the material necessarily (AKA TRC), at least it's Prince doing what he does best; being a true artist in every sense of the word."

Murph says: Which is why I named The Rainbow Children in the realm of "ambitious, fresh, and rebellious"...It's his mature version of the maverick Prince...But musically, it relies heavily on his childhood influences: Jazz, R&B and Gospel....The concepts and the lyrics is where Prince took a left turn...There are Prince fans on the org who feel the music on the Rainbow Children was too slow, mellow and oldschool (Although, I'm not one of them)...it just proves that everyone has their own projection of what they want Prince to be...

PurpleKnight: "He deserves to rest on his laurels and just relax, and I won't hold it against him for doing so. But that won't stop it from being a damn shame given his still considerable talent."

Murph: Okay, this is where I have to take you to task...I don't know about this "damn shame" business...The man has been pumping out music for 25 years...He's released countless albums, been lauded by critics, has won an Oscar, has gone platinum a myriad of times; It's cool to say you would like the man to challenge himself...But to say he is shaming himself is laughable; Anything the man does from here on out is gravy...Could you imagine the Beatles not breaking up and staying together for 10 more years; Or how about Jimi hendrix surviving his overdose? Most likely critics and fans like yourself would be saying the same old stuff about them...All this to say that you need some sort of perspective on the subject...Like Michael Jordan, Robert Deniro or Joni Mitchell, Prince has really nothing else to prove...
[Edited 1/11/06 1:11am]

meow85 said:

I don't think people are saying the man can't do it anymore because of his age; In fact he is a better musician now than he was during Purple Rain or Sign...I don't know about other folks, but my whole point was that as we get older, we tend to look back...Does that make a person old? No...It's just a fact of life...There are the exceptions to the rule such as Miles Davis, who I mentioned in a previous post....But for the most part, musicians, singers and artists tend to embrace their base influences as they become older...Again, this doesn't make a person a prime candidate for the retirement home...It is what it is...I just wish that some Prince fans would get off the man's back and go out and seek other forms of challenging music and artists just waiting to be heard...I think that some Prince fans on the Org. are just afraid of moving on...

I think there was definitely a real sense of 'urgency' in:

'The Truth' Album (1997/8)
'The Rainbow Children'(2001)
'One Nite Alone: Piano & Voice'(2002)

In addition, I would argue that a great deal of raw emotion is also noticeable in songs such as 'Beautiful Strange'(2000), 'When Eye Lay My Hands On U'(2001), 'Eye Love U but I Don't Trust U Anymore'(1999), 'Reflection'(2004) and 'A Million Days'(2004).

In addition, although the instrumental is 'relaxed' in style, Prince's vocals on 'SST' are very impassioned.


Peace
Mr7

murph said:

A rock album passed off as "opera" (though I adore The Wall) and a traditional opera are two different things. It was an amazing, ambitious task for Waters, and certainly not one he'd done before by any stretch.

Anyway, regardless of what some fans think of Waters' solo work, it doesn't change the fact that his solo albums have all had that urgency that I'm talking about.

murph said:

I don't see how Prince being rebellious in his younger years now means he has to sound old and tired in his new music. How would such a thing affect general ambition and heartfelt emotion in art?

There are countless issues an older man can be passionate about, and I really don't see why Prince can't take chances, musically simply because he isn't rebelling in such a vibrant manner anymore.

murph said:

Well, so long as there's a feeling that it means something to Prince and had ambition and heart put behind it, I'm willing to accept that I sometimes just won't enjoy the album. Sometimes it'll be hit, other times miss, but without any urgency or ambition there you kind of lose automatically.

murph said:

I think you completely misunderstood me here. I meant it'd be a shame as in disappointing. Y'know, as in "Well that's too bad." I'm surprised you thought I meant he'd be shaming himself somehow. "It's cool to say you would like the man to challenge himself" is exactly what I was saying to begin with.

PurpleKnight said:

No, I love TRC. And Xpectation. And One Nite Alone Live. That was a really strong period. I don't think I heard a single dull bootleg from the tour either. I take it back there. But the music he's made since is insipid. Apart from Magnificent, which really was.
[Edited 1/11/06 2:22am]

'Musicology' wasn't supposed to be a daring album musically, it was a cold, calculating attempt by Prince to make himself 'commercial' and maintream again. We have had recently many 'experimental' ventures 'Xpectation' 'TRC'; Prince wants to be relevant and maintream again. I for one applaud his audacity at attempting a commmecial comeback. We cannot say that from that point of view Musicology wasn't bold.

BOTTOM LINE:

Were talking about a man who in 1983 orchestrated music that today could be seen as House Music...(1999-Side's 3&4) We are taking about a man who took one voice and created a choir as well as an industry standard....(When Doves Cry).
This same man wrote a ballsy psychadelic rock opera in the wake of one of the most successful and critically acclaimed records of all time....(Around The World In A Day). I could go on and on and on, but honestly it makes me sick to my stomach to think that a man who created all this amazing shit has lost his touch.

To think The Rainbow Children(Spiritual Vomit) and Musicology (a chart topping ILLUSION) is anywhere near that scope of work would just be plain retarded.
Check your head and then go to the local record store and see what's happened over the past 20 years...

devilstwin said:

So you're saying he made Musicology purposely mediocre in order to make it more palletable to those who need MTV to tell them what's cool?.... I wouldn't say that was anything to applaud. Nor is there anything particularly audacious about attempting a commercial comeback, let's not forget this was third time he tried to do it (Emancipation, Rave, Musicology).

mschirmer said:

I wouldn't go that far. 1999 was an influence on House in the early/mid 80s, but House was developing just fine by the time 1999 came out.

Nouveau Dance Said:

"Prince has a situation where he can have the best of both worlds - a commercial hit record every few years for the masses and media to absorb along with every other popstar from the past 40 years still releasing records and touring, whilst using the NPG Music Club and mail order to release more interesting, absorbing little experiments that would only be labelled as 'too much self-indulgence too soon after the last triple CD set of self-masturbation' by the music press.

Those flames under Prince's once inviting but fiercely blazing log-fire are looking duller and duller every time he knocks out another album of that sickly, tooth-achingly sacharin and artificially flavoured "melting pot" of pop/funk/R&B with a guitar solo and Linn drum samples sprinkled here and there."


*****

Prince is such a creative cat that it'd be hard to ever count him out, no matter his age or recent output. just like alan leeds said in the .org interview, at any time he could come with something new that blows us all away. Perhaps his sense of urgency is just on hiatus till he comes across something that moves him profoundly, ie, the work of another artist, or a musician he's playing with or perhaps simply a new chord progression he stumbles upon or hears in a dream...

I think our perceptions of Prince are distorted by the uniqueness of his career: he's essentially a pop artist but has released much, much more music to the public than most other pop artists. He seems to have a sensibility more like a jazz musician in that he releases music as it comes to him rather than for purely commercial reasons. And yet I think many would agree that Prince has a pop celebrity sized ego and expectation that everything he releases should be commmercially successful. This, and other seeming paradoxes about his career and his relationship with his art and his craft - - a topic which is a thread in and of itself - - I'd say make it hard to have a point of reference upon which to judge him and his future prospects. We just don't know enough about what moves Prince to create, what motivates him, how he perceives himself and his work at this point in his life.

Having said that though, my personal opinion is that Prince's relationship with music and the business of music has been in a near constant state of evolution from the beginning of his career. While this onto itself is not so unique, I'd say that the dramatic amount of change is. He strikes me as an artist and a personality type that constantly keeps moving, seeking something fresh, something new, something real and interesting. He never stays in one musical place long enough for the public, try as we might, to be able to pin who is and what he does. Sure he's not a machine, he repeats hisself or returns to similar themes lyrically or musically now and again. But I think when I really listen as objectively as possible to all the music he's released or bootlegs I've been priviledged to hear, I notice something remarkable: almost constant dramatic change and expansion. Peeps give props (and justifiably so IMO) to Madonna for reinventing herself so successfully over the past several years. But Prince has reinvented himself with almost every project he's committed to tape. There are actually very few constants that I hear. Every few years or so he changes EVERYTHING, totally reshuffles the cards, from the players he surrounds himself with (and hence the musical inspiration from which he feeds) to the gear he records with. To my ears it seems as if very few years Prince even changes his vocal delivery. Name another (living) artist that broad, that dissatisfied with the status quo. Reminds me most of Miles Davis or Joni Mitchell, two of his stated influences...The reason I remain a fan is that you never know what Prince is gonna do next, even though I agree with those who say that these past few years the music has been less compelling, seemingly less inspired than in years past. Think about the sheeer number of unique song titles he's come up with; just that alone is perhaps an incomperable achievement. Here's an artist who's creative and emotional engine is such that his stated goal (I read it in an interview last year in an australian mag - - sorry I don't have the quote) is to capture pretty much every musical idea that comes to him. One could argue with that artistic goal, but the point is that perhaps his goals in releasing music aren't fathomable to us.

I think Prince's life and career, just like any other human being, falls into several eras marked by events that people other than those intimately close to him have little to no knowledge about. I have no evidence to support this assertion, but I think something dramatic happened to Prince in and around 1987 that changed that way he's approached his art and musicianship ever since. I have no idea what it could have been. Was it his crumbled relationship with Susannah? Was it letting go of the Revolution? Was it the failure of Warner's to release Crystal Ball and the subsequent lackluster commercial response to SOTT? Was it for the first time surrounding himself with musicians that were equal or better than him on each of his main instruments? Was it a rift with his father or mother? Was it experimentation with drugs (ecstasy?) or alcohol? Was it that the confining noose of his PR celebrity had dimished his world to a crucial breaking point and he wasn't able to have broad life experience anymore? Was it a combination of many or all of these things? who knows but I suspect that for whatever reason Prince dramatically shifted his approach to making music that year. I think one thing you notice is that from the time he hired sheila e., prince has played less and less drums on his recordings. From the time levi seacer started playing with him, he's played less and less bass. I may be reaching here, but I think that Prince, at that point in his career, stopped believing that he had to play every instrument on his recordings. I suspect that once he stopped being so maniacal about being at a high level on so many instruments, he lost an edge as an instrumentalist that he's never recovered. But who knows if virtuousity or high level skills on an instrument even matter to him or were ever a goal of his. I suspect not. Anyhow, I also think in years hence when, like arguably in 1993 or 1995 or perhaps 2001, he's really tried to make definitive statements he's been unable to recapture the creative thread he had in the mid-80's. I suspect he's tried mightily and I'd say that in doing so he's sometimes made some amazing music. But as the song says he's competing with his past and, man, in the mid-80's dude was flowing like few have ever flowed. I suspect that playing all or most of the instruments was more than just an ego thing for Prince; I suspect it was a vitatl part of getting what he heard in his head out into the world to make space for new unique concepts and ideas.

I also suspect that around that 198-1988 time period the 'guff' that holds the unique musical and songwriting ideas that were granted to Prince by the universe finally ran dry. Thats just a new age-y way of saying I think he either (1) ran out of good ideas (I'm certainly not arguing that all the changes and concepts that Prince has run through post LS have been compelling)(2) stopped caring about pop songwriting as a craft. Who knows why? We can see that his output of songs for his protege's began to decline, eventually coming to a halt. Why did he lose interest in producing? Why is the output from 1987 and 1988 so dramatically different than 1985 and 1986? I personally feel that the year Prince had in 1986 has to rate as one of the greatest creative years anyone's ever had. I'd stack it against anyone in contemporary music, Coltrane's 1965, Mile's 1955, Hendrix's 1968, The Beatles 1966 (or was it 67?), Stevie's 1975, etc...Maybe he made so much music in 1986 that he was sick of himself. Maybe he worked so hard he ran down his health or energy in ways only perceptible to hisself...

Man, I suspect that most everything Prince has done since the late '80's is by-and-large simply gravy to him. He's rich, he's a celebrity, he's insulated from most aspects of 'normal' life, he has few peers or competition. He's also probably really eccentric, probably deeply insecure and/or an egomaniac and increasingly isolated. I think outside of a couple of periods in the '90's (1993-96, 2001-2002) he hasn't had a burning fire or caught a unique creative spark, an "urgency". I suspect personal life issues have contributed to this immensely. Death of a child, divorce, loss of a parent, changing business fortunes (important to remember that to the music industry, Prince has largely been an intriguing money sinkhole/headache since PR - his records haven't sold nearly enough to cover the cost of doing business with him. his publishing and catalogue are another story, but thats for another post), all surely have had a profound emotional impact on Prince if he's anywhere close to normal. He's been athletically performing in high heels for almost 30 years and his body is probably all f****d up. However, I agree with peeps who argue that we ought to let him be and be appreciative and thankful of whatever this really fascinating cat sends down the pipe. But that don't mean I've got to buy it and support it if I don't like it.

Sorry to write a book but the topic inspired me to spill my guts...

NouveauDance said:

House might have been developing fine when 1999 came out, but at that time there was ZERO exposure. Not until almost 10 years later did House/Techno finally get recognition.

jilljones said:

It was a fantastic read and well-written. Your last two sentences sum up my feelings perfectly

NouveauDance said:[quote]

devilstwin said:

So you're saying he made Musicology purposely mediocre in order to make it more palletable to those who need MTV to tell them what's cool?.... I wouldn't say that was anything to applaud. Nor is there anything particularly audacious about attempting a commercial comeback, let's not forget this was third time he tried to do it (Emancipation, Rave, Musicology).


Mtv sucks ass. Musicology did well because he included it in the purchase price of a concert ticket. His tour did well because he billed it as the last time he was going to play his HITS. Keyword: HITS
Musicology was completely amaturish as far as music goes. There's nothing spectacular, bold or cutting edge about it. Prince doesn't care about mainstream. He cares about MONEY. The more of it, the happier the man is. His shows in the late 90's were shameful and pathetic infomercials for his stupid website that peddles BAD MUSIC that almost no one would listen to. C'mon....SST???? I laughed out loud. Glass Cutter? Hahahahahahahaha.
WTF?

Wow. impressive post.Couldn´t agree more.jilljones nailed it down.
I´ll save this one because I know i´ll want to read it again.

Prince needs to be seriously pissed off , his music is lacking energy cos hes too happy with his lot , hes got a nice album - by- album record deal sown up , hes got way too much money to be unhappy about that , and hes married . Maybe if we're lucky Universal will screw him over on this deal , or he'll catch Mani cheating or something , and we'll get music focussed through negativity instead of the " happy larry" tunes . I agree to a point his musics lacked urgency recently , Musicology desperately needed a shot in the arm , Te Amo Corazon is ok but nothing great , I'm hoping its not indicative of the album ( as hes already said it isnt) and I'm willing to put down that Musicology was a minor blip on his musical canon.
The problem doesnt stretch back as far as some people think though in my opinion , I love 80% of Emancipation still , and theres quite a few tracks released through the NPGMC that I really dig and that have enough passion and drive to convince me Prince can still turn it out when he needs to. As I said , I'm hoping Musicology was the low point and its all uphill from hereon in .