No research needed, it's common knowledge. I posted this earlier: there is a separation of church and state: the government is not imposing any religion on anyone. So God can be made out to whoever you want it to be. There are many references to God in songs, the Declaration of Independance,the Emancipation Proclamation, the Gettysburg Address, etc.

Ashcroft forcing songs? I hate power/control freaks. True though, no god should be forced on anyone, if anything, it pushes them away.

Ultimately this thread is leading to a matter of differing worldviews. The decision made by the 9th circuit court shows the cultural war in this country, with a liberal agenda that wants to deviate from all tradition and absolute truth to relativism, promoting multiculturlism, pro-homosexuality, pro-feminism, pro-abortion, pro-co-habitation, etc. We can't be judgemental, there's no right or wrong, promoting relativism (that depends on what the word "is" is), etc. That's a huge subject to tackle. Unfortunately I must get back to the job.

Thanks for the smart dialogue folks...

Peace.

bonojr said:

Waht up dude? My yappins called constructive criticism. Your obviously convinced one must be a non-questioning and total US government lackey to say the oath. I didn't assume any of those outlandish things you posted. I actually agree, no way in hell would I have fought in Vietnam, no way in hell do I believe that slavery was right. One has to question the authority of any administration.

But of course, your life's tarnished forever by an event that happened years ago, that being slavery. Point blank: if you to be stuck in this negative abyss that's your problem. Ultimately you have to move forward, because this is one country you can do it in. If you don't believe that, try another one. And yes, there's narrowminded rascist idiots everywhere, corporate america, etc.. I don't know your experiences. I don't know you as a person. I've lived abroad, been a minority in different societies so I can relate to the frustration. My best friend is black. Heck, I've dated black women, and the stupid stares/comments I get piss me off too, make no mistake when we have narrowmindedness on both sides of the coin. Also keep in mind this same narrowmindedness exists with the French/Arabs, Germans/Turkish, etc, etc. You have these clashes between peoples in most every society as a result of imperialism. So now what? Condemn the whole world? You got live on.

Peace.[/quote]

Glad to know you're so well-rounded. Maybe you'll realize that the symbolism of the flag represents the entire history of the country; SLAVERY included. No way do I feel compelled to salute that crap. As far as racism. It happens, but I'm not blaming anybody for diddly. My life is really quite fine. I got no grief with white folks on an individual basis. Hell, I might have dated your sister (or mother depending on your age).

I WONT pedge alligiance to this nation UNLESS it it under god.

http://www.neopets.com/re...iolectrica

SkletonKee said:

The Pledge of Allegiance is NOT a pledge to God, it is a pledge to the flag and to the country it represents. If it said "one nation under the sun" instead of "one nation under God" would you then think you were making a pledge to the sun? DUH!!! (What a moronic comment)

Lord, there's danger in this land
You get witch-hunts and wars
When church and state hold hands

- Joni Mitchell - Tax Free 1985

Peace.[/quote]

Glad to know you're so well-rounded. Maybe you'll realize that the symbolism of the flag represents the entire history of the country; SLAVERY included. No way do I feel compelled to salute that crap. As far as racism. It happens, but I'm not blaming anybody for diddly. My life is really quite fine. I got no grief with white folks on an individual basis. Hell, I might have dated your sister (or mother depending on your age).[/quote]

Don't mention my mother again.

violectrica said:

As a personal decision that is just fine, but to force this upon everyone is wrong.

Seperation of Church and State.

MusicAngel said:

MusicAngel this is the stupidist arguement I have ever heard. So by your rational if the pledge said, "One Nation under Satan" we are not making a pledge to Satan?
So you would have no problem if this change were made?

DUH!!!(What an even more moronic comment)
[This message was edited Thu Jun 27 13:53:49 PDT 2002 by lovemachine]

bonojr said:

well said, bonojr, & essentially the whole thing in the nutshell..

Those who don't believe in God aren't "excluded" during the Pledge of Allegience-
if anything they exlude themselves because they don't want to say it, & last time I checked, no 1 who doesn't want to say "under God" doesn't have to.

lovemachine said:

WHAT?!!! I'm sorry but you have just made the stupidest comment I have ever heard. You totally misunderstood my comment, which wasn't even directed at you any way. It was in response to something someone else had said. Your "rationale" isn't even worth responding to!

MusicAngel said:

Lets keep the discussion civil..mmm-kay? Calling someone's personal feelings moronic dont do you are anyone else any good. Lets discuss the issue like adults or end the debate now? Agreed?

As I was saying...When you pledge to a nation, under God, you are in a since pledging to God. And yes, if the nation you represent is created under the Sun, you would be worshiping the Sun..Lets not forget that some of the first cultures created *did* worship the Sun as a God..So its all relative.

Remove the one phrase and people can go back to either worshiping or not worshiping whatever they want..


CELEBRATE DIVERSITY!!!

Snake said:

Koo koo.

IMO, Governmental endorsements of religion have no place in The Pledge.

It's all a de minimus argument anwyay.

Is it that intrusive for a non-believer to hear the phrase "under God"? IMO, No.

Conversely, Does it really make someone any more of a believer because The Pledge says so? I hope not.

Ultimately, if it's important for you as an individual to pledge allegiance to one nation under God, that's fine go right ahead, nobody said you can't. But to have the government endorse any particular religious belief (even mine) is patently unconstitutional. Personally, I don't need the government to tell me what to say about God. Thanks, but no thanks. Don't like it, ammend the Constitution.

vgallo6 said:

That is a great post!!


JD

SkletonKee said:

First, I did not call your "feelings" moronic, the comment you made struck me as moronic, or maybe just ill-informed.
Second, To "pledge allegiance" to something means to pledge loyalty, it does not mean to "worship" Just because you might be pledging allegiance to a nation "under God" or "under the sun" does NOT mean you are worshipping that God or the sun, it simply means you are pledging allegiance to that nation. If the words bother you so, simply leave them out. But I don't feel the pledge should be ruled "unconstitutional". Those two words should be an option, maybe that way everyone can be kept happy.
I'm sorry if I offended you with my "moronic" comments to you, I just get kind of testy when I feel people don't fully understand the meanings of the words they say or read. It was not meant to be a personal insult to you.

American government has been doing unconstitutional things since the very beginning. They will change what they want or not based on whether it benifits them.

It doesn't really surprise me at all that since they took prayer out of schools that the public school system has gotten worse in many ways. And prayer isn't even forced upon those who didn't want to do it. There was a choice. Some people complain about things that don't hurt them in any way just because it's what they're best at. It's how they get the most attention. It's sometimes how they get their way. My way, or the highway.

As much as I can say that I do believe in God, I can say that having God in the pledge has nothing to do with our country. We all have the freedom of religion, therefre, giving each and every one of us Americans the right to either believe, or not believe in God. We as individuals (the ones who believe) can pray that God do look over and protect our country. If I didn't believe in God, I wouldn't want it in the Pledge to my country. So...yes, I think that it should be removed from the pledge.

I didn't know that the God phrase wasn't originally in there, that's some interesting stuff.

I never minded saying the pledge in school. We only said it from Kindergarten through 6th grade, anyhow... I'm not sure how it is in other states/schools (I'm from California) but my junior high school and high school both took the options to read a fact about the country everyday instead of doing the pledge (like "On this day, ___, blah blah blah happened").

Keep it or lose it, I could really care less... but it's interesting as Hell to read the discussion.

PFunkjazz said:

Damn, I'm diggin' ya PFunk...

bonojr said:

Whassa matter bonojr? It's ok for you to talk about dating black women but it's not ok for PFunk to mention that he may have dated white women such as your family members?

bonojr said:

But does the government force people to recite the Decparation of Independence? The Emancipation Proclamation?The Gettysburg Address? No. The Pledge of Allegiance is a fucking PLEDGE. Children are forced to recite it. And "God" (the word is capitalized when written out, thus clearly meaning the Judeo-Christian "God") has no place in a government sponsored pledge.






Oh no...Oh NO!!! We are moving away from tradition? And starting to respect others' beliefs? Shit!!! We shouldn't dare defend such inherent evils as MULTICULTURALISM, GAY RIGHTS, FEMINISM, THE RIGHT TO CONTROL ONE'S OWN BODY, PEOPLE LIVING TOGETHER BEFORE MARRIAGE, etc. Heaven forbid you would have to start respecting other people and actually be forced to interact with those who differ from you! Quick, quick - better leave the .Org and join a Promise Keepers web site where such horrors as diversity, respect, and intellectualism won't plague you!!!





When debating with you, it tends to become a smart monologue, sucka. And you're not on the winning side of that one...

MusicAngel said:

Why isn't my rationale worth responding to? Are you not clearly saying that the only important thing is that we are pledging our allegiance to America and our flag and that it does not make a diference whether we include "God" or as you put it "The Sun"?

I'm telling you that it does make a difference with my example of including Satan in the pledge. It is of course far-fetched, but I do believe that I made my point.

I do believe that if I misunderstood your comment you had better respond to me.

'I pledge allegiance to my Flag, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with equality, liberty and justice for all.'

I keep posting this and nobody is talking about why equality is not in the pledge.

Hold on, please, just a moment...

A lot of you have very valid points to your arguments. Yesterday when I first heard this news story I was dumbfounded that anyone would want to ban the pledge. But I can see why some of you who are offended by the line "one nation under God" and understand that the seperation between church and state is one of the most important aspects of The Constitution.
I don't know if it was this thread or another one, but someone asked would you pledge "One nation under Allah"? and I caught myself laughing at that...which is exactly the point of the athiests. I believe in God, and believe God and Allah are one and the same, but I think calling him Allah would be directly connecting the state with Islam, and since I am not a Muslim I wouldn't want to pledge to Allah. So is saying God connecting Him to Jews and Christians?...an interesting question. I really wouldn't mind taking that line out of the pledge, my beliefs are MINE and I don't impose them on anyone. But if you do take it out you better take it out of everything...which is going to be a VERY hard thing to do since the belief in God is so connected to the founding of this country.
Remember this thread is rare since just about everyone I have talked to (and heard on the radio and news programs and seen polls)is on the other side...saying it's just some stupid Californians and to just leave the Pledge alone. How dare they touch The Pledge? Chances are that this ruling is not going to stand.

Another thing is interesting though...I wish people would put in this much thought and debate on why Uncle Sam takes 35% out of my paycheck every week and I don't know where it REALLY goes to. THAT is something that completely offends me about this country.

Just a thought.


[This message was edited Thu Jun 27 15:53:13 PDT 2002 by Pagey]

I pledge allegience, to the penis
and the man to which it's attached
and to the bedroom where we will end up
one night, under covers
with breakfast in the morning for us

America is a structure whereby people of all beliefs can live together. The fact that you dont believe in a "god" does not exclude you from being an American. We share a belief in this structure, not necessarily Christianity. Thats why we all call ourselves Americans, but not all of us call ourselves Christians.

So this structure has no business favoring one particular kind of religion. There's no such thing as absolute "freedom" or "equality" if your beliefs have to stay within the canopy of Christianity.

The person that brought this issue to court is simply asking our government to quit endorsing one groups religious views over alot of others.

Its like trying to gut Internet Explorer out of Windows. OY.

Tom said:

Removing the phrase "under God" from the pledge will be unconstitutional because it denies the majority who practice the same religion freedom of worship.

"God" should definitely be removed from the pledge.

SummerRain said:

Oh fuck...here we go...

• Such a move isn't denying anybody SHIT! How is this denying anybody the freedom of worship? Are you serious? I hope you're kidding...
  
  
• The "majority" does not need anybody's protection on this issue, especially not the government's.
  
  
• Do you even know what "unconstitutional" truly means? How would this removal (which isn't truly a removal, if you know your history) be against the Constitution? Are you familiar with the Constitution, and the strong defense it provides for separating at all costs church and state?
  
  
• Do you know the history of the Pledge? If not, then read up. The "Under God" bullshit was a nonsensical response to outdated Cold War politics. It has no point anymore, and was a truly UNCONSTITUTIONAL addition in the first place.
  

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[This message was edited Thu Jun 27 16:35:46 PDT 2002 by KingSausage]