On a related topic, did you know that the Bible forbids you to swear to God?

But I tell you, do not swear at all: Neither by God, nor By heaven , for it is God's throne -Matthew 5:34

And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. Simply let your "yes" be yes, and your "no" be no. Anything beyond this comes from the evil one-Matthew 5:36-37

Now, I'm not bringing this up to get all preachy with y'all, but I think it's interesting that many Christians would get into a furor over the pledge issue, yet they would think nothing of swearing on a Bible, or saying "I swear to God". This is something required in many courtrooms, yet the Bible expressly forbids it. Seems to me that this is an issue that both Christians and Non-Christians alike should agree on, yet no one is questioning it. Curious, eh?

jthad1129 said:

True dat...and in this land of free speech, where you are supposed to be able to voice your grievances (and he took the especially painful task of using the courts instead of blowing up or shooting people), he is getting death threats from ignorant "American patriots" who feel the best way to voice their displeasure is to make anonymous phone calls threatening him and his family with death.

jtgillia said:

Are you an atheist? If not, then how would you know if they'd care or not? I am agnostic, meaning I believe in some kind of supreme being but not a specific one. This is a Christian dominated country/society we live in, and I am constantly bombarded with requests that I "bow my head in prayer" or "thank God". Or at the very least, people assume that I am a Christian and speak to me as if their beliefs are my own. I get tired of it and I imagine that 's how this guy felt.

"One Nation Under God" can apply to any faith? So you wouldn't mind if it was "One Nation Under Allah" or "One Nation Under Yaweh" that was said or written, right, since those are also considered names for God?

Do Foodstamps have GOD on them? I hope not, I'm hungry.

Maybe you shouldn't hang out in churches...

Or you could simply tell those people that you aren't Christian. I'm sure they'll understand and won't bug you about it, if they practice what they preach.

As for the "One nation under Allah, Yahweh thing", no, I wouldn't mind. Allah and Yahweh are still God. Just because most Christians don't say those names anymore doesn't change that.

jthad1129 said:

People have the choice to affirm rather than swearing to God.


I think this whole thing is ridiculous. Your child is going to hear the word "God" whether they're saying the pledge of allegiance or not. When I was young, I made it a point to talk about religion with my classmates. If you don't want your child to say the pledge, then they don't have to. We shouldn't cater to everyone who isn't happy with one silly thing like the word "God" THESE people irk me. This country was founded by people who believe in God, if you don't that's your business. Teach your child what you want AT HOME. Just because you don't believe in God, doesn't mean your child can't be exposed to it and make a decision for themselves when they reach adulthood. This is some buulll-Sheiit. Call me harsh, but atheists don't belong here anyway.

jtgillia said:

are you serious? we are talking about forcing ones opinion on another...if we are to be a society that makes *all* people feel inclusive, why put "God" into it? You should feel secure in your *own* beliefs to allow others their opinion...

Frankly, I think both sides of the argument are rather de minimus.

Is it really that problematic that the word "God" appears in several government-sanctioned contexts? Probably not.

Does it really make the nation any less Christian if they are removed? Probably not.

Mostly it's all semantics IMO, but it keeps the lawyers paid so that's always a good thing.
[This message was edited Thu Jun 27 11:00:45 PDT 2002 by Universaluv]

chachalila said:

i know very well i don't and will never trust america.

No, but racists like you should be.

Janfriend said:

Atheists "don't belong"--where? On the Org? In this country? In the world? Yeah, that's pretty harsh allright.

Must be nice to feel so self-righteous...

Janfriend said:

One of the leaders of the Taliban said something very similar last year.

IrishEcho said:

A question equally important; if the pledge is unconstistinutional, it does implies our currency is unconstitutional as well, therfore if these government endorsed entities are ruled unconstitutional, are the local churches we worship in considered unconstiutional also because they acknowledge god completely and pay property taxes to maintain eternal use of that " government property" which by law, is considered a government endorsement?

Read this typo on CNN, "IN GOT WE TRUST."

short answer, no. Long answer, of course not don't be ridiculous.

SummerRain said:

AnotherLoverHoleinYoHead said:

What I mentioned above--the "hysteria"--can now be found in the thread How Do You Feel About Taking God from the Pledge (or something close to that title).

Dude I agree it's definitely there, my point was that it wasn't cool to criticize Irish in particular for someone else's views you think he probably agrees with. Personally, I don't agree with what he's said on this subject either, but I try to stick to what he has actually said if I'm gonna take him on.

That's all, comprende?

AnotherLoverHoleinYoHead said:

Universaluv said:

Isn't it ridiculous to stop saying the pledge in the schools because of the phrase "one nation under god?" What makes one act less sensible than the other, why Universal, are you being biased? :O

SummerRain said:

Nobody has to stop saying the Pledge. The Pledge is unconstitutional because of the "under God' phrase. Take it out, say it all day long in school if you want.

regarding your previous statement, I think it's more than a bit hyperbolic to suggest that churches may be deemed unconstitutional as a natural result of the 9th Circuit ruling. They won't and everybody here should know better. The Constitution guarantees us freedom OF religion. What you are suggesting is freedom FROM religion which is nowhere near the basis of what the court decided.

Universaluv said:

Ummm, first I'm not a "dude" in the literal or even figurative sense...

Secondly, yes, I understood what you were saying but I don't happen to agree with your opinion on how I should make my arguments with IrishEcho. I will make my arguments in whatever fashion I think is correct at the time, based upon my knowledge of him, of the current topic and the arguments on both sides of the issue. You may not agree with what my opinions are, or you may think the logic of my argument doesn't make sense, but telling me they're "not cool" (not okay) crosses a line. Point out flawed logic, inaccuracies, etc., but please don't play referee and decide how "the game" is to be played here by all. And I won't tell you how to do it either...

"Comprende"?

subyduby said:

this is sad Suby, is it the country, the politicians, or the people?

Dudette

I originally said it wasn't fair to argue that way and I stick to that. I pointed out that you were accusing him of something he had not said in this particular thread. That's not crossing a line in my opinion. If I accused you of believing something based on assumptions I'd made about you, you damn well better call me out on that. Of course that's just my opinion I could be wrong, whatever.

You want to discuss it more, orgnote me. Otherwise we can agree to disagree.

AnotherLoverHoleinYoHead said:

Antony7 said:

I sincerely hope that one day you will catch up with the rest of the world & realize what a pathetic case you are.

Anyone who doubts the validity of this simple observation need only look at the number of responses on this thread, the companion thread about the use of God in the pledge, or any number of opinion polls on news outlets on sites such as CNN.

AnotherLoverHoleinYoHead said:

Only an imbecile of your considerable accomplishment would start an argument with someone else on how you choose to argue with me. Time well spent...

IrishEcho said:

Nice...

Bet it's okay to argue like this though, isn't it Universaluv?

AnotherLoverHoleinYoHead said:

Here, I'll do some arguing for you all. IrishEcho is a damn dumbass who likes to sit here and pretend to be smart behind his computer screen. It probably took him all day with a thesaurus to come up with "imbecile of your considerable accomplishment."

Irish, you're an asshole. Your time is well spent, I suppose. You sit on the org half the day and make comments about the "considerable stupidity" of everyone else.

WOW...Now THAT'S time well spent!

IrishEcho said:

Dear Brother Echo:

Please stop using my image and likeness to speak of things u know nothing about. Unlesss and until u have walked a mile in a black man's shoes. Unless until u have given your life in the face of Justice and equality, then u are not worthy to use my image, especailly to put forth racist commentary. Because an oppressed man cannot be Racist, against his oppressor. For he isn't fighting against this man's way of life because he is "white" but because he is "unprincipled". IF your footsteps are bloodied in the sands of time...Do not blame me, the white man has done what he has done. Take some responsibility for the fact that u still enjoy that privledge of being white.

Slavery and oppression has not ended for black people, I dare u to go into a black community, how bout South Central L.A, and bump your gums...for the spirit of Huey P. Newton and the Panthers still lives. There. U better do your research before u open your mouth, cuz the teachers are on the org now, so u better come with some facts... How u know who u talkin to in here? How u know what power truely hides behind these nic names? Wait until Dick Gregory comes to the park to play...and if u don't know who he is u better study!

Sincerly, The Ancestors, Revolutionaries, and Visionaries

Universaluv said:

I knew better to think this country would give up it's independence but it did!

AnotherLoverHoleinYoHead said:

Of course not, he can be an ass but he is consistent at it.

Anyway I don't think you and I were arguing, disagreeing sure, arguing not really.

I don't know people. If I went to a bank and asked them what they do to keep my money safe, and they'd answer "In God We Trust"... I'd switch banks.

... of course, I really think they shouldn't bother in this case. It's not a pledge, just a decorated currency.