Hilton02895 is right about the concerts. I was lucky enough to be in Albany, NY and went to both the Buffalo and NYC shows. I definitely got my moneys worth from the club. I wouldn't fault anyone for feeling upset about the club because they couldn't go to a show. I can't go to the Celebration but it was easy for people that live in that area to go. That's the thing about memberships, there's always a chance that you might not get out of it what someone else does. But, when it's all said and done the $100 you paid for Year 1 got you about 50 songs. Year 2 is going to end up giving you about the same only on CD's instead of downloads.

When you buy a new CD at the record store, have you heard the entire thing beforehand? No. What is the difference then between what we get by paying for the NPGMC CDs in advance and buying them at a record store? Nothing - that's what. Are you an idiot? I hate it when people act so fucking proud of not joining the NPGMC because they think the people who joined got hoodwinked by advance purchasing music. THERE'S NO DIFFERENCE. Everything on earth is purchased in advance!

nightwing said:

Eeeenn. (Buzzer) Prince wouldn't do this because then HE would have to front ALL of the money for production, office, manfcg., staff, public relations, etc. out of his pocket! The club allows him to do all that he does now. It is in replacement of a Major labels "recording advance".

Personally, I joined just for the CDs. I don't feel ripped off, because I know I have 3 more coming my way. I loved the first one. The CDs are apparently arriving on schedule about 3 months apart (Xenophobia's supposed to come in August). Sure, it would've been a better value if I could attend a show, but it's not bothering me too much because of the CDs. I guess if I couldn't afford it, I wouldn't be as pleased with the club- but I would also be smart enough not to join if I couldn't afford it.

I don't get it. This is the kind of thing a real fan always dreams of. Getting 4 CDs a year from their favorite artist. How can this not be a good thing?

Jestyr said:

Big difference. In a record store you choose the CD - it isn't chosen for you. Also you get to go home with it immediately - you aren't waiting an indefinite amount of time before you get it. Lastly, you CAN hear all (or most) of the tracks from any new album in the form of preview clips these days on sites like Amazon.com and others, as well as in-store listening stations, and as well as radio, and dodgy MP3 filesharing applications. Hell, if you buy it and hate it you can always bring it back to the shop and change it for something else.

You might want to rethink your argument somewhat.
[This message was edited Thu Jun 20 11:41:02 PDT 2002 by ian]

Eleventeen said:

So what? Advances are paid back from royalties anyway. The money to fund a new venture has to come from somewhere. Why does it need to come from your pocket? Let Prince talk to his bank manager, make the music, and if we like it we'll buy it. Or is that too old fashioned an approach to consumerism for you? Bear in mind that it takes no staff whatsoever to do this - he has the resources to record the album and press the CDs cheaply. Everything else can be outsourced cheaply (e.g. web store management etc). The club as it stands probably has more administrative overheads in the long run.

jtgillia said:

It will be a good thing - when the CDs arrive as you say. No one has really said that getting 4 new Prince albums in a year is a bad thing - we wouldn't be on this site if we thought that.

I have my criticisms about NPGMC, but I certainly don't want to see it fail. I think under some more capable hands (NOT PRINCE'S) it will be a excellent new business model for marketing and distributing music. The current system is based more on PRINCE baiting his diehard fan base with questionable product and dubious privileges. He's got a good idea but he's tied too closely to the end product to be worried about marketing and distribution.

Bosco said:

Gosh thanks for giving me permission to be disappointed with NPGMC, I really appreciate it.

Now pay attention. No one here is claiming that we got screwed with NPGMC 2002, because 2002 isn't over yet. No one is getting "all worked up". The criticism here is about the failings of the current NPGMC and why it is a bad deal for consumers ultimately (even if you love the 4 CDs you get eventually) by virtue of the fact that when you paid up you had no idea what you were getting and when you were getting it.

Answer me this: Why not just make the music and then let the fans decide if they want to buy it or not, via the NPGMC online retail store? If the music is good, the fans will buy it. What is wrong with making something and letting people make an educated decision about whether or not to buy it? Is it because it involves too great a financial risk for Prince? Or is it because he believes that given the choice we probably would expect better music (e.g. "the Rainbow Children").

And why not compare with 2001? What else have you got to compare it with?

PFunkjazz said:

I agree PFunkjazz... well said. I think we all want it to succeed, it is just a matter of realising why (in its current form at least) it won't.

jtgillia said:

Exactly. Kids today can be so whiny. They think the world, or Prince, or whoever, owes them.

I'm a huge Springsteen fan. He's coming out with his first CD with the E Street Band in EIGHTEEN YEARS! That's right, it's been EIGHTEEN FREAKING YEARS since he recorded with the E Street Band. What have we Springsteen fans received in those eighteen years? A depressing solo CD; two crappy CDs with an ersatz rock band; a lame "Greatest Hits" package with the obligatory two new songs; a "Crystal Ball"-type 4-CD collection of songs not good enough to be released the first time around; and a two-CD/DVD issue of the best rock tour I've ever seen. Not a lot over eighteen years, don't you think? Yet, no one - and I mean NO ONE - bitches about Springsteen's output in his online forums. We're happy when we get anything. Bruce owes us nothing. We're grateful for the music he's put out so far. Nothing is guaranteed; everything is a bonus.

Prince fans have fared a little better over those eighteen years, wouldn't you agree? Is there any artist with more released material - CDs, movies, etc? No one can hit the bull's-eye everytime, but I'll put Prince's body of work over these last eighteen years up against ANYone's.

If you joined the NPGMC, you signed on for a one-year deal with Prince. You can't state that Prince let you down until either the year is up, or perhaps if Prince came out tomorrow and said, "Yo, that's it. I'm keeping the money, and no more CDs."

Wanna whine about ONA? Here's a quarter - call someone who cares. Call me when your year's up.

Eleventeen...

-Let me just reitterate and add to my thought. I like the current club idea. For whatever reason it works for Prince. It might change again, I'll be open to that, really. I hope it changes to suit the npg fans. Not necessarily members of a club, but any Prince fans. Should I have to join a club to buy his albums? The answer is yes. Why not look for a system that keeps his music available to all fans.

-I also think Prince has a much better sense of the artistic approach than a business approach. Meaning he is great and prolific at making music, but when it comes to actually producing the CD, printing, and mass-distributing it, it doesn't seem to be his department.

-Maybe I'm being a little hasty-we need more time in 2002 to see more. But I wish he would buy a CD manufacturing site and leave the business side to someone else.
I will definitely not desert Prince, I will still stay with the npgmclub. He may lose a lot of fans along the way or he may not.
-But like his movie direction, with all due respect--I wish he could admit his shortcomings and stick to what he does best: live and recorded music and lots of it.

RodeoSchro said:

I love this. Some of you people just assume "Oh people are saying bad things about NPGMC? They must be against Prince! Against me! How can they hate NPGMC and say it is terrible when it is only June!" without actually reading any of the very valid criticism or responding to it.

When you are ready to sustain intelligent discource, give me a call.

Ian

ian said:

They are called "fam," Ian... they will not listen to you.

ian said:

Ian:

You're kidding, right? You said, "...it is a bad deal for consumers ultimately (even if you love the 4 CDs you get eventually) by virtue of the fact that when you paid up you had no idea what you were getting and when you were getting it."

You just said that any deal you invest in without knowing what you're getting up front is a bad deal.

Yet, you knew that (or knew that you didn't know what you were getting) when you invested in the NPGMC.

So how can you POSSIBLY complain?

According to your logic, you made a conscious decision to invest in what you define as a "bad deal".

Is that what you call "intelligence"?

To have fun, let's flip your logic over on its side. If you purposefully invested in a "bad deal", as you have admitted, then your expectations were low.

So, the fact that NPGMC 2002 gave you ANYTHING should be looked at as a bonus by you. After all, you invested in a "bad deal", didn't you?

A "bad deal" that's getting better by the day.

And you also said, "No one here is claiming that we got screwed with NPGMC 2002, because 2002 isn't over yet." Yet, in the very same paragraph, you say, "...it is a bad deal for consumers ultimately (even if you love the 4 CDs you get eventually) by virtue of the fact that when you paid up you had no idea what you were getting and when you were getting it."

So, your position is that ultimately, the NPGMC is a "bad deal" for consumers - no matter what - yet, no one is claiming they got screwed with NPGMC".

If your definition of "intelligence" is the creation of confusion by the use of contradictory and illogical positions, then bravo, bravo.

You're intelligent.

Point of parlimentary procedure:

Let it be known that Ian did NOT join NPGMC 2002; however, he advances the position that it is a "bad deal" on behalf of those who did join.

I don't get it. This is the kind of thing a real fan always dreams of. Getting 4 CDs a year from their favorite artist. How can this not be a good thing?

So True.

RodeoSchro said:



Oh dear. Once again you embarrass yourself by clicking "reply" without actually reading the posts you are replying to. Let me clear this up for you:

I didn't join NPGMC in 2002. I won't be joining NPGMC in 2002 until I see 4 CDs available, ready to ship, that I actually want. Is that so hard to comprehend?

You seem to perceive a contradiction where none exists. Neither I nor anyone on this site can accurately claim to have been "screwed" with the NPGMC 2002 membership. Save those rants for the end of the year. However (and this seems to be the bit that you struggle with) I maintain that the business model of NPGMC 2002 is flawed and bad for the consumer. I have pointed out those flaws in very clear detail, and I have offered suggestions as to possible alternatives.

When you manage to express your own opinion as lucidly as this, let us know and we'll all give you a reassuring pat on the back. Until then, perhaps you should consider that talking without listening often makes people appear foolish.

Ian

what the npgmc needs is more flexibility...

why not offer two programs?

First:

$100 membership- 1 year

Recieve all the perks that came with year 2

Second:

$15 Membership fee (Optional plan)- 1 year

$15 per CD
$40 for concert options (soundchecks, aftershow, advance ticket options)
*$10 for intelligent and quality customer care

Fact: Business that provide options for their customer base tend to do better then those who dont.

* I would be willing to pay up to $50 for good customer service...

Just to clarify the use of the term "screwed" in these posts I want to say that I was the one that originally used the term and all I said was: "If we get screwed by the club I will be the first to blast them in February of 2003. Until then..."

I wasn't saying that anyone here claimed to have been screwed. The NPGMC certainly isn't perfect. I don't have a problem with it myself but if others do then that is their business. The only way things can get better is if people give constructive criticism and alternate ideas. SkletonKee and Ian both have good ideas.

One last thing...Ian, my first post to this thread was in no way trying to be mean or nasty to you but you still responded pretty sarcastically by thanking me for letting you be disappointed. If you want to have an intelligent dialogue, that sarcasm has got to be focused elsewhere. You also took what I said out of context about people getting worked up and screwed. (oh, that sounds exciting). As I said above, I said IF we get screwed. And I didn't mean to say that you or anyone was getting worked up about the issue. I just meant that it's not worth it in general to get worked up until you really have a reason.

I probably shouldn't have even replied like this but it was the first time that anyone replied to something I had posted and I got excited.

Thanks!

Bosco said:

Hi Bosco,

I might have taken your comment badly, but I felt you were being a bit overbearing in terms of what we are "allowed" to think of NPGMC, so I countered with some unnecessary sarcasm. Hopefully you'll take my points onboard and recognise that I did devote the rest of my posts to addressing the issue at hand as best I could.

Anyway no biggie. My opinions are my own and I stand by them and defend them. If you dislike my sarcastic tone then apologies, but you should look at the tone of your original post also and you might see what prompted me respond like that

PS where does your name Bosco come from?
[This message was edited Fri Jun 21 3:12:55 PDT 2002 by ian]

ian said:

Well pards, maybe YOU should read the posts - particulary the one right after the post you're hung up on. It will clear up your problem with my knowledge of your NPGMC status.

But if that's too taxing for you, here it is: "Point of parlimentary procedure:

Let it be known that Ian did NOT join NPGMC 2002; however, he advances the position that it is a "bad deal" on behalf of those who did join."

It was posted three minutes after the post with which you seem to take offense, and about 3 1/2 hours before your response. I don't know how you could have missed it. Maybe you should take your own advice about trying to not embarass yourself, etc. etc.

I stand by my position that you have contradicted yourself with the statement, "No one here is claiming that we got screwed with NPGMC 2002, because 2002 isn't over yet." Yet, in the very same paragraph, you say, "...it is a bad deal for consumers ultimately (even if you love the 4 CDs you get eventually) by virtue of the fact that when you paid up you had no idea what you were getting and when you were getting it."

I don't see how you can possibly reconcile the two statements. A "bad deal" by definition means someone got screwed.

And isn't "ultimately" defined as "when all is said and done"? When you say "it is a bad deal for the consumers ultimately", you are saying it is a bad deal no matter what. And yet, you say hold off on labelling the NPGMC as a "screwing" until the end of the term? Perhaps you should say what you really mean instead of trying to dance around your point.

Maybe where you live, "bad" means "risky", in which case I'd be more inclined to agree with you.

Finally, I will tell you that I, too, hesitated joining the NPGMC until the concert tour was announced. For me, I knew that even if Prince didn't come to Houston, he'd play somewhere close enough that I'd make the trip to see him, and thus take advantage of the NPGMC access to the soundcheck. (If that goofy girl hadn't spent the whole non-music part of the soundcheck talking about her "purple curse", I would have played guitar with him, too. That's worth a WHOLE lot more than $100.)

You being on another continent makes your perspective different. Just hopping on a plane to catch a Prince show is probably not financially feasible or a good use of time.

That's your problem, though, not mine. That's also why you seem to define the NPGMC as four CDs, totally discounting the benefits offered during the tour.

But as far as location goes, you are in the minority. Don't project your minority situation on the majority of fans who DO live in places that makes the tour benefits worth the price of the NPGMC.

RodeoSchro said:

uhhh...im a fellow North American, and I always thought that Prince's fan base had become larger in Europe and in Japan than in America...Even if the fanbase is larger in the good ole USA I would never say we were the majority of Prince fans...it just sounds cocky and rude...which, is how the rest of the world pretty much views us as...

like I said, Prince's camp should be able to create programs to please *all* his fanbase...not just the one in US and Canada...all it takes is thinking outside of the box...something Prince has never been able to do...

SkletonKee said:

Skelly:

You CAN'T please all your fan base. I guarantee you that no matter what Prince did, at the very least Bart Van Hemlen would complain.

You know I'm right...

I don't think Prince's fan base is larger anywhere than here in America, simply because we have more people. There may be a higher PERCENTAGE of fans in, say France, but the USA's got the overall numbers. At least, that's my guess. Only Prince really knows the answer to this question. I'm not trying to be cocky; that's just the way it is.

Also, Prince lives here. I thought about that when I typed my last response and almost said that if, for example, I was a huge fan of a European artist, then I'd just have to live with the fact that he probably isn't going to tour the USA like he would tour his home turf. Again, that's just the way it is, and I'd hold no grudge against Europeans for that. In fact, I'd say bully for them, just like I say bully for those who live in Minneapolis and can hit the Paisley Park parties and concerts several times a year.

As far as how the rest of the world views us, who cares? Do you think the French care that a lot of Americans think of them as rude, smelly, no-armpit-shaving, cancer-stick-smoking, warm-Coke-drinking, too-easy-to-surrender snobs?

I doubt they lose much sleep over that, and neither should you and I. As long as we keep doing the right thing and living by the Golden Rule, it will all work out.

And really, I understand some people's frustrations with how Prince puts out music, but today's youth have no idea how good they've got it.

Offhand, I can't think of a more prolific artist in musical history than Prince. Is there anyone who has ever put out as much music, movies, and multimedia over a 25-year span as Prince has?

Can you name me one other artist who opens his personal recording studio to his fans on a regular basis?

Is there any other recording artist who has EVER let fans into soundchecks?

Has any other musician ever routinely granted requests by fans to join him/her onstage and jam?

I firmly believe that if you went to the fans of any other major superstar from the last twenty years, and said, "Would you have liked it better if your artist had put out as much music, movies, multimedia and other benefits as Prince?", the answer would be a unanimous "yes".

RodeoSchro said:

Offhand, I can't think of a more prolific artist in musical history than Prince. Is there anyone who has ever put out as much music, movies, and multimedia over a 25-year span as Prince has?



you haven't heard of Mozart then... but he was a European artist, wasn't he???

RodeoSchro said:

I did read the post but unfortunately the sentences were very poorly constructed. The grammar and spelling was appalling - I'm not using that as a criticism of you of course but it did make it somewhat difficult for me to figure out exactly what you were trying to say.

I still don't have any idea what you are arguing about. I've said what I wanted to say pretty clearly. If you have a point to make that can move the discussion forward then make it.

RodeoSchro said:


Good for you.



True, but that's another matter entirely which we haven't really discussed in this thread.



Two things. Firstly you seem to believe that the majority of people interested in Prince's music or joining NPGMC as living north America. I'd love to hear where you came across these statistics. You'll find that there are a lot of fans and club members in Europe, Asia, Australia and elsewhere. To disregard all continents as being a "minority" is plainly ridiculous.

Secondly, you are referring to MONETARY value of the club which I have not touched upon in the points I made. The points that I made, if you paid attention, were about the fact that the way the club operates requires you to part with cash without knowing what you are getting and when you are getting it. It may very well be worth $100 to someone, or $1000 to someone else, but either way what is wrong with IMPROVING the way the business operates? Why not let Prince make his music, sell the individual CDs online, and let the fans make an educated decision about whether or not to buy them or not? Why can't NPGMC show their supporters the courtesy of letting them know exactly what they are paying for, and when they will get it? The point is that doggedly loyal fans are asked to shoulder the financial risks of Prince's ventures, instead of a more tried and tested approach to consumerism where Prince makes a product and the consumers buy if they like it.

Read the previous points for further clarification of this point. No one has been able to contradict the points because quite simply, it is a very reasonable question to ask.
Ian

ian said:

Ian, you really SHOULD take your own advice about reading posts before making comments. If you had, you wouldn't have missed this:

"I don't think Prince's fan base is larger anywhere than here in America, simply because we have more people. There may be a higher PERCENTAGE of fans in, say France, but the USA's got the overall numbers. At least, that's my guess. Only Prince really knows the answer to this question. I'm not trying to be cocky; that's just the way it is."

Furthermore, in the same post, I said this: "Also, Prince lives here. I thought about that when I typed my last response and almost said that if, for example, I was a huge fan of a European artist, then I'd just have to live with the fact that he probably isn't going to tour the USA like he would tour his home turf. Again, that's just the way it is, and I'd hold no grudge against Europeans for that. In fact, I'd say bully for them, just like I say bully for those who live in Minneapolis and can hit the Paisley Park parties and concerts several times a year."

Finally, even though you think Prince is a dolt when it comes to business, surely you give him enough credit to be able to figure out that he should tour where he would sell the most tickets. Check me if I'm wrong, but the man tours America far more than he tours abroad. In fact, that is true with just about every major American act. There's a reason for that, and I bet you can figure it out.

So to try and paint my position as anything other than a pretty darn reasonable analysis of the facts is, well, plainly ridiculous.

As far as how the NPGMC operates, I reply that Prince owes you nothing. He doesn't owe you one more song, one more album, one more tour. He is under no obligation to ever do another thing musically (except, of course, for us NPGMC members).

Knowing that, I appreciate that he's still recording and, in fact, is probably the most prolific artist of our time.

Most artists release an album every twelve to eighteen months. Some, like Bruce Springsteen, have EIGHTEEN YEARS between album releases (referring to records cut with the E Street Band, of course!).

So when my favorite artist says that for an upfront payment of $100, I'll get 4 new CDs in a YEAR, sure I'll bite. I know going in there's no guarantees; no one has held a gun to my head to pay this money; I may not even like the music. But I have enough faith and enough disposable income to take the chance, and frankly, I'm happy there's a chance there to take.

That's a damn sight better than waiting another 18 years for the next Springsteen/E Street Band album...

So what it boils down to, Ian, is this: do you have enough faith in Prince to pay the money sight unseen?

I do; you don't. Neither one of us made a wrong DECISION, we just have different opinions. But to label the NPGMC as "a bad deal for consumers ultimately" IS wrong, because that's not a fact.

It's only your opinion.

hey Rodeo...


so do you a problem with Prine offering different tier programs? like the two i recommended?

wouldnt that eliminate most of the crapping about the npgmc site...isnt that a far better discussion then your current arguing over semantics with Ian...

just curious..

Hey Ian. I was tired and cranky when I wrote that last one. I'm laughing about it right now. And besides, you have a much more interesting conversation going on with RodeoSchro! I'm just going to sit back and watch!

Bosco is the last name of a guy I went to college with. We have the same first names and someone played a joke on all the new people in our dorm at the beginning of sophomore year and said that I was Bosco. 17 years later and I still carry the name. No one knows what happened to the real Bosco. Most people still don't realize it's not my real name.