skywalker said:

Keeping in track with 1999 and PR momentum would not have been repetitive. Nobody said he should "copy" 1999 and PR. It's being said that doing a dud album like ATWIAD was not too repetitive (actually some was...blatant pop of Raspberry Beret, Ladder soul slow) but not worthy of a follow up.

Sorry you're disappointed that some dont feel ATWIAD and Parade are all that (he could be)

All this is stuff that Prince has said at different times over the years to justify his actions. Prince is capable of making bad business decisions. If I'm measuring success, I measure it in sales. I could care less about popularity. Most of my favorites back in the day never crossed over to the pop charts. No, I wouldn't consider them overly successful but we are talking about success here, not favorites.

If Beethoven, Miles Davis, and Britney Spears all released an album today, who you think would outsell them....Britney Spears. No, she doesn't have the talent that God gave a chicken, but she would still outsell them, therefore, she would be more "successful". We are talking about success here, not talent. No, it's not right that no-talents outsell talented artists but that's life. I don't agree with it but I do know it happens. I've bitched about it myself for the entire 1990s and on into the 2000s.

And for the record, I don't own any Backstreet Boys, New Kids On The Block, or any other of those bubblegum groups and wouldn't be caught dead with them. But while you are downing people like Madonna and Michael Jackson for being known more for their controversial antics rather than there music, you must have forgotten in the 1990s when most of the general public only knew Prince for changing his name to an unpronnouncable symbol and writing "slave" on the side of his face.

1999 follow-up or Roadhouse Garden both sound like stronger material. Especially hearing RG and Our Destiny. Hot!

vainandy -

" If I'm measuring success, I measure it in sales. I could care less about popularity."

What do sales measure/reflect other than popularity? They don't measure talent, they don't measure craft, nor ambition. You say you could care less about popularity, yet, you constantly point out how many people didn't like "Around the World in a Day" as if we should use that to gauge it's quality or the quality of Prince's musical direction. YOU didn't like it. Fine.

If Beethoven, Miles Davis, and Britney Spears all released an album today, who you think would outsell them....Britney Spears. No, she doesn't have the talent that God gave a chicken, but she would still outsell them, therefore, she would be more "successful".

Okay you are right. Britney is more successful than Miles and Beethoven. This statement simply illustrates the fact that you equate sales (popularity) with success. Again, I ask-what do sales measure/reflect?

"And for the record, I don't own any Backstreet Boys, New Kids On The Block, or any other of those bubblegum groups and wouldn't be caught dead with them."

Why? According to you they are some of the most successful groups EVER. Maybe Prince could have been more successful if he'd have not dropped AWTWIAD in '85 right? Maybe he'd be a bigger musical giant/legend than Britney and BAckstreet Boys.

"But while you are downing people like Madonna and Michael Jackson for being known more for their controversial antics rather than there music, you must have forgotten in the 1990s when most of the general public only knew Prince for changing his name to an unpronnouncable symbol and writing "slave" on the side of his face."

Who cares? While people "only" knew Prince for that, I was watching him at Paisley Park, digging out to "The Gold Experience" material and some of the hottest shit Prince has ever done. See both MJ and Madonna have let their persona and personal lives drown out their art. Prince is sometimes guilty of this, but is 1st and foremost known as an musical artist. There is a reason he wrote slave on his face. Why did MJ dangle a baby? Why did MAdonna do the book "Sex"? Not for their music.
[Edited 11/21/05 21:50pm]

skywalker said:

True. No matter what, it couldnt have topped his momentum. Im just saying that he would have been more successful with a zeal to keep on top and with a continued momentum rather than turn around from it all. It probably wouldn't have done anywhere near the numbers as previous but with ATWIAD it seemed he was purposefully trying to run from something that COULD have been more successful imo.

Lord have mercy, I feel like I have stumbled into the NPG Music Club by mistake! You can come up with the most reasons to turn this thread around to an issue of talent rather than being successful just so Prince can appear to be an errorless, mistake-proof, superior "God". If sales mean popularity, then so be it. That doesn't mean that I personally like popular music only. My favorite era of Prince was when he was strictly known in the R&B world and the pop world had never heard of him. That sounds far from trying to win a popularity contest.

My stating that a lot of people didn't like "Around The World In A Day" is simply stating a fact. We are talking about success here and success means sales. My personal dislike for it at the time had nothing to do with it being unpopular. My dislike for it was because it was not the strong Prince material I was accustomed to.




How can she be more successful than Miles and Beethoven and not be more successful than Prince? She is more successful than Prince these days, you know, whether, you, I, or anyone else here likes it or not. Success means sales. Now, Prince can beat around the bush all he wants to and change the subject to how talented he is, which no one has ever disputed, but he's been living in "Prince World" for a long time now and refuses to see things as they really are. If we're dealing with sales (success), not talent, Prince hasn't had huge sales in years, with the exception of "Trickology".




Because my music collection doesn't consist of acts like that. Mine is filled with groups like Cameo, Roger & Zapp, Rick James, Lakeside, The Barkays, and countless others that hardly ever saw the light of the pop charts. I don't have to like particular acts to know they were successful. No one is disputing Prince's "legend" status. That's strictly a way of changing the subject so that no one notices that Prince is actually capable of making a mistake.





Well, you are the one that brought up the subject that their controversial acts have overshadowed their music at times....I didn't. But since you brought it up, I thought it was only fair to bring up some of Prince's antics also.

Oh, this has just become sillier than the Monty Python argument sketch:

Vainandy: Success means sales.

Skywalker: Success means artistic achievement.

Vainandy: Evrything you said is wrong because success means sales.

Skywalker. That is such rubbish because success means artistic achievement.

Vainandy: That is so wrong. You're contradicting yourself because we're talking about success and success means sales!

Skywalker: Now, I've got you: You say success means sales so you're wrong - success means artistic achievement!

Guys, it's been a great discussion, but if u've got nothing new 2 say...
(Like responding 2 my claim above that synths were on the way out by '85 and P was ahead of his time. Much of the music through the early '90s was stripped back.)

I honestly believe that P would have had greater success if he had stayed in the 1999 / Purple Rain groove but only for another two albums. I don't believe that he would have had an issue with being stuck in the same way that Madonna and Mike arguably have been simply because of his nature. In fact he would have obviously been fighting his nature to stay the course. With two more albums though he could have capitalized on the commercial sound that he invented and others adopted to great success over the following two years after Purple Rain. Instead Jimmey Jam and Terry Lewis owned those years and lets be real about this, alot of folks gravitated to Flyte Tyme because they were doing more of the thing that Prince had stopped providing. SOTT could have served as a perfect transition LP toward the kinda of things that he would come to do later. Hey, I personaly believe that the Batman LP would have been a lot better had he followed this course. I love ATWIAD and Kiss is certainly a great hit (I like the movie better than its soundtrack)but one could only wonder what if. I think Andy calls it right on this one but again he should only have continued for another two years. After that it would have been detrimental to his legacy. That's how I see it.

Am I the only one that thinks ATWIAD wasn't "revolutionary" ? I mean it's not like he started playing death-metal or classical music... There were still ballads, funky beats... It was still pop music and it was still funky. It was different but not THAT different.

I love ATWIAD btw.

coolcat said:

Yeah, when you look at ATWIAD, it's not like 'ol boy just spat on his earlier stuff. Tunes like "America", "Tambourine", "Pop Life", "The Ladder" and "Temptation" all had some of the same drum beats and vibes as others previous. Stylistically, I really don't see the "musical 180" that some listeners and critics go on and on about.

OdysseyMiles said:

I agree. I think that ATWIAD was as much as a progression/departure from Purple Rain as Purple Rain was from 1999.

skywalker said:

Right. Each progression/departure encourages the listener to grow with the artist. Of course we don't have to, and I guess some of the replies in this thread are a reflection of those who have a definite preference when it comes to P. That's cool, there's nothing wrong with having a preference, but it also leaves that listener all the more susceptible to disappointment when they don't get exactly what they want.

if if if

He certainly wasn't the type to hang on one style for a long time.
Too complicated & hard for me to predict if it would have been succesful .
What happens just happens ....
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[Edited 11/22/05 10:39am]

skywalker said:

I wrote a reply earlier, but you two ignored it and just carried on with your: sales v art thing

I totally disagree. Between 1985 and 1989, synths were going on strong in full force. Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis had huge success with Janet Jackson's "Control" and "Rhythm Nation" albums with this sound. Also Jesse Johnson had three albums during this era, Morris Day had two albums, and Andre Cymone had an album of his own and also produced two albums for Jody Watley during the period. All these albums had that synth sound.

Outsiders were also doing it up with synths during this era as well such as.....

Ready For The World
Madame X
The Egyptian Lover
Bobby Brown
New Edition
El Debarge
Chico Debarge
Chaka Khan
Midnight Star
The Barkays
Krystol
Rebbie Jackson
Lakeside
Janice
Junior

The list goes on and on.

That sound was far from dead. Actually, it was just beginning as far as outsiders to the Prince camp goes.

Yes, most of the music through the early 1990s was stripped down (it still is) but that has nothing to do with those synthesizers. Hell, hip hop took over....they needed something slow enough and stripped down enough to "talk" over.

vainandy said:

Hey, I guess it's a question of where u live!!! From where I was, all those MPLS funk / Prince entourage releases were WAY below radar. In any case, you missed my point entirely: I agree there was heaps of synth sound music being made till the end of the 80s but it was NOT cutting edge. It sounded mostly like a rehashing and cashing in on what had already been done (among others, by Prince).
I don't think music today is stripped back at all - so we must mean different things. Most music today is WAY over-produced IMHO. The thing is it sounds to me that when you say "music" you mean black music. I'm exposed to a whole range of subgenres as well as mainstream popular, and my subjective recollection of the late 80s early nineties was that things that were more stripped back and with an emphasis on real instruments were what were getting my attention: they were what seemed "out there".

And that's really the crux, you know. I got into P (around '82) coz he was "out there" and stayed into him, because he kept pushing the barrier. I've never liked music to be predictable, and most artists I like are a bit "left-of-center" (I've loved Radiohead since I saw them play live in '94 and I've stuck with them while they've alienated most fans and lost all mainstream interest - sound familiar).

I know, this is about "success", but my point was that P's success in the '80s was in staying one step ahead of what was popular. I think he really lost it from 1990 onwards, and particularly with D&P (despite its commercial "success") because it seemed he was chasing trends rather than leading them.

wasitgood4u-

"I wrote a reply earlier, but you two ignored it and just carried on with your: sales v art thing"


I am sorry if you felt I ignored you. I didn't know you were previously addressing me in particular.

Ready For The World
Madame X
The Egyptian Lover
Bobby Brown
New Edition
El Debarge
Chico Debarge
Chaka Khan
Midnight Star
The Barkays
Krystol
Rebbie Jackson
Lakeside
Janice
Junior

This is exactly Prince changed up his sound. Why would he want to be in the same box with any of the above artists? (Okay I'll give you Chaka) These folks might've been "hot" but way behind Prince.
[Edited 11/22/05 12:50pm]

"Hey, I guess it's a question of where u live!!! From where I was, all those MPLS funk / Prince entourage releases were WAY below radar. In any case, you missed my point entirely: I agree there was heaps of synth sound music being made till the end of the 80s but it was NOT cutting edge. It sounded mostly like a rehashing and cashing in on what had already been done (among others, by Prince).
I don't think music today is stripped back at all - so we must mean different things. Most music today is WAY over-produced IMHO. The thing is it sounds to me that when you say "music" you mean black music. I'm exposed to a whole range of subgenres as well as mainstream popular, and my subjective recollection of the late 80s early nineties was that things that were more stripped back and with an emphasis on real instruments were what were getting my attention: they were what seemed "out there".

And that's really the crux, you know. I got into P (around '82) coz he was "out there" and stayed into him, because he kept pushing the barrier. I've never liked music to be predictable, and most artists I like are a bit "left-of-center" (I've loved Radiohead since I saw them play live in '94 and I've stuck with them while they've alienated most fans and lost all mainstream interest - sound familiar).

I know, this is about "success", but my point was that P's success in the '80s was in staying one step ahead of what was popular. I think he really lost it from 1990 onwards, and particularly with D&P (despite its commercial "success") because it seemed he was chasing trends rather than leading them."


I agree with most of this.

I would argue that Prince never was specifically trying to set trends. I would say that he just does what he feels and people interpret it one way or another. If he wants to try jazz, he does it. If he wants to try rap, he does it. It's not always popular or even of great quality, but I think it all comes from Prince wanting to stretch musically.If anything, that is his formula. Trying out what he wants to on his terms.

Most of those groups were not even doing that sound before Prince changed his style. In the early 1980s, Midnight Star and Lakeside had their own sound. Junior had a voice like Prince but didn't have his sound in his music until the late 1980s. Bobby Brown was still in New Edition and they were too busy copying the Jackson Five's sound to worry about copying Prince. El DeBarge was still in DeBarge and they were doing mostly ballads. Jody Watley was still in Shalamar who had the Solar Records sound. The Egyptian Lover was making music similar to Twilight 22, that sounded like it came from another country. Chaka Khan was doing her own thing. Krystol, Madame X, and Janice never released their first song until the late 1980s.

How was Prince able to predict all this? He couldn't. He changed his sound before it even happened.

Okay since nobody wants to say it, I will. Prince made an error in judgment. He changed his style too soon. Nobody faults him for the parardigm shift in his music, we only question his timing. If he could've released just one more album similar to Controversy, 1999, Purple Rain -- he would've been elevated to godhood! By changing so soon, he lowered expectations so much that even fabulous songs like Endorphimachine and Ana Stesia went largely ignored.

vainandy said:

Right. Ultimately, changing his sound because of what other artists were doing was not his primary reason for doing so. He changed because that's who he is and that's what he'd always done.

brothaluv said:

I really don't get how people seem so sure about this. You see fans and critics alike bashing artists for repeating themselves. Prince has even been bashed for it despite his many changes.

I don't see an error in judgement here, especially in such subjective territory.
Prince did what felt good to him. People have to realize that that's what an artist has to do. Do you honestly think that Prince didn't have people in his ear telling him that certain ideas back in the early eighties were bad ideas? He probably heard all sorts of things, and he no doubt tuned them out. With all due respect, how do you think Prince managed to create the albums (Dirty Mind, Controversy, 1999, PR)you all hold so dear? By not listenin' to critics and Monday morning quarterbacks.

brothaluv said:"Okay since nobody wants to say it, I will. Prince made an error in judgment. He changed his style too soon."

Hey welcome to the conversation. People have already said what you are saying-what do you think we have been debating about?

OdysseyMiles said:

You don't see how people are so sure about it? You answered your own question. Subjectivism. People have their opinions and they're entitled to them. I like Prince and enjoy most of his music. I'm a fan. But I'm not a sycophant. One this is certain, Prince doesn't give a damn what either of us think..

If the Beatles kept making songs like I wanna Hold your Hand, They would have been genormous. Gee..I think they got BORED doing the same old thing.
If Prince kept making albums like Purple Rain, he would get BORED. Prince is a brilliant musician. His growth was/is only possible by trying new kinds of music.
Give it up already