Never Moor...




poe edit


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[Edited 10/30/05 16:47pm]

I Don't UNDERSTAND ANy OF THIS.. Maybe ONE Day Somebody Can Tell me what he is Talking about. Maybe he will. Too deep and Nothing I Want To Know Right Now...

I like the name Moors, Moors sounds dangerous and yet safe at once. This is too personal for me to get in to, but i have my reasons.

XxAxX said
i don't think anyone is displeased that prince is getting in touch with his black history.

what's gross about it is that he feels the need to put other cultures and their heritage down while he's making his point.

this topic has been discussed to death. back when prince first foisted these lyrics on us there were pages of arguments up in here over whether or not prince is justified dismissing european cultures as being that of 'long haired barbarians' who were 'wallowing in the mire of their own bigotry'. this is why folks criticize his grasp of history. he seems to be more than a little bit baised toward the moors and does a rather poor job of evaluating european culture in that he dismisses it as that of barbarians.

NOT to mention that when the moors 'came to spain' they raped and pillaged their way into that country.

they were bloody conquerors and i'd love to know how prince decided THAT kind of behavior was NOT 'barbaric'?
[Edited 10/30/05 7:31am]
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The referrence to Northern Europeans as "barbarians" or "long-haired babarians" began long before Prince. The Greeks and Romans frequently used this type of language to refer to Nordic people who they fought against and set out to conguer. Europeans had not yet organised themselves into Nation-States and tended to enter into battle with long-hair and sometimes even naked. And there are several other things which are not too flattering which I will not go into here which lead the Romans in particular to use this term.
Now as for the Moors being "bloody conquerors". Check the history of that area and you will see that there have almost always been fighting and conquests. Romans vs. Carthage and on and on. The Moors it has been said were the most benevolent of conquerors for a number of reasons:
1)They allowed the local populace to keep its own religious practices, culture and identity.The Moors were Muslim but they allowed Christians and Jewish people to practice and keep their faith. By the way, when the Christians came to power they did NOT return the favour to Muslims or Jews.
2)They built 15 (FIFTEEN) Universities in a part of the world where before there were only 2!
3)They shared several technological advances from Optics to Medicine and Mathematics, etc. Built roads and public baths in a part of the world where such amenities simply did not exist.
And many, many more contributions. But you would have to read the previously mentioned books to get the full story.

So yes, they were conquerors, but if you compare them to say Spain and Portugal (since exiling the Moors) and how they went about dehumanising people who they conquered,in the Americas and Africa, there really is no comparison. I remember attending a lecture by Dr. Ivan Van Sertima where he said yes, people have always had wars and conquests, BUT they (Moors and others) did not reduce the people they conquered to chattels (things) through Chattel Slavery and they did not deny the humanity,culture and history of the people they conquered. That was the curcial difference.

Does anyone have a link to the original thread. I would love to read that.

I believe one ofthe wrongst misstake humans can do is to classify eachother and make dangereus diffrences, instead to love the variety of Creation we could share and enjoy, in brothership. Peace!

i see . that explains it perfectly. you're right. why didn't i think of that? it's OKAY for prince to use the word 'barbarian' because it was used back when to describe a race of 'savages'.

so using your logic the word 'barbarian' is kinda like that "N" word, and it's perfectly okay to use both those words, right?

and the moors were such NICE conquerors that the people whose land they stole probably said something like "yep. those moors, they invaded our country, stole our land and homes and totally subjugated us to their rulership but they did it so NICELY we just don't mind."

sure. gotcha. makes perfect sense now you've explained it.
[Edited 11/6/05 6:37am]

Here in Spain, some Spanish people means, me if I'm Moor, and you know what I meke from? : Well I do think about Bob Marley's song and sing for me: "I'm gonna put it on...!) And I do it.

NouveauDance said:

So what exactly is the problem with this song. Its historical for one and two I don't see why people get upset about it. Hell the Moors were more advanced than the Crusaders I thought everyone knew that.

In the end the Crusaders still won the Biggest One!! I like to refer to that one as the real War to end all Wars even though it didn't but then what war ever has?

The world we have to day goes back directly to those battles. Of course now the shoes on the other foot. The Crusaders have the technology, the smarts and the sophistication.

XxAxX said:

I don't see the song putting down any other cultures any more than every time I turn on the TV or go to a movie I see mine put down.

What I am getting at is "Black History" is erased in almost any instance of historical reference. its like people think all the turmoil on the modern continent of Africa has been going on forver. There were civilizations, the were advanced, and they did have technology.

That is the only point Prince is making. But this is never talked about and you sure as hell won't see a movie about it. So it is what it is.

Benedict the Black
(1526–89), Italian-born saint. The son of African slaves, St. Benedict is the patron saint of the people of Palermo in Sicily, Italy. He was nicknamed il moro santo, which means “the holy black” in Italian, for his exceptionally kind and good nature as a child. The nickname was later incorrectly translated as “the moor.”

Benedict's father Christopher Manasseri was named after the landholder…blah blah blah...just something i stumbled across on the net

Moors?? Shouldn't that be "moops"??

This thread is extremely interesting and I am so happy to have a chance to read this all now as I did not catch it last time.

Yes the letter might seem quite brutal and too harsh to read and to acknowledge.
But the simple truth of the matter is however rude/harsh/brutal it may seem, this did happen and at the time Prince is talking about, the world did look like that.
Different civilizations have been more advanced than others during different periods in history and if you read history books you will realise that the Moores or the Muslims were actually the only rulers who did not force their populations to convert or abandon their religions, which at that time was a very integral part of culture and identity.
Also, Jews, Christians and Muslims did not have any issues with each other during the Moor period, but during our reigns they did and this shows a lot of about the rulers.

There is nothing wrong about realising that maybe things were the way Prince is describing it. Even if it puts whites/Europeans in a bad light. It is like admitting or realising that blacks did not have the same rights as whites did in the 50s/60s. This is the simple truth and it does not make anyone feel good realising it or talking about it, but it happened and talking about it and educating people about it can hopefully make people more aware and also more tolerant and more open-minded and we can all make a united effort in making sure things like this won't happen again.
It is about time to realise that what has happened and what is happening in the world is not always a pretty picture, but we can change things and I think ultimately that is what artists like Prince are aiming for.
Why not take the positive stance rather than the negative?

Scandalous69 said:

well, before i answer that question about positive/negative stances let me ask you this:

HOW WOULD YOU FEEL if i wrote a song entitled "The Whites in Africa" and the lyrics described how the White Man brought technology, medicine and education to a race of HALF-NAKED, SPEAR-CHUCKING, UNEDUCATED SAVAGES?? ? WOULD you feel POSITIVE about the way i presented my ideas?

YOU SEE the reason i do not take prince's efforts regarding the lyrics to "The Moors" in a positive way is:

because prince feels the need to PUT OTHER CULTURES DOWN in order to build up the culture he likes. for example WHY does prince have to call white people "BARBARIANS" and say that white/europeans people were "WALLOWING IN THEIR BIGOTRY?"

IF YOU LOOK CLOSELY at the world during the era he refers to you will see that pretty much ALL CULTURES FELT THEMSELVES TO BE SUPERIOR TO OTHER CULTURES. and that is the nature of bigotry.

i AGREE WITH YOU that the IDEA behind prince's lyrics is noble - to promote the notion that the Spanish Moors had a great culture. but the WAY HE ACCOMPLISHES this in terms of the lyrcis he uses IS NOT REALLY SO NOBLE IS IT?



*please PARDON the all-caps approach. it is only utilized for the purpose of illustrating a point and not because i'm so inflamed i feel i must shout

XxAxX said:[quote]

Scandalous69 said:

I'm just as much a fan as most here but I've never heard or knew of this song and it's supposed controversy. Judging from the responses so far, this was a powerful song based upon its subject matter, all I can hope for is that folks who are just reading about this for the first time will do their own research on the topic and make up-their own minds.

Boby did I do a poor job separating on my previous message.

[quote]

XxAxX said: