First, thanks for the crash course on Prince's drumming skills and contributing skills of his various drummers. Now I am off to seek knowledge on the keys from you, my fellow Prince fans and music enthusiasts. What did/does each of his keyboard players bring to his sound? Now, I have been a fan since I was 8 in 1978, but I want your opinions and background. Here are my thoughts and opinions based upon my current knowledge:

- Dr. Fink wrote many melodies and grooves that Prince later expounded upon. He was an excellent keyboard player and perhaps his best keyboard player to date. During Prince's multi-layer keyboard days, he seemed to play the melody and solos while . . .
- Lisa was more of a chord holder. She not only held the chords live in concert, but from what I can tell, she contributed many complex arrangements to Prince's sound. She did a very good job in writing The Stick and I actually enjoyed Wendy and Lisa's first two albums. I do not know much from that, but I do know that . .
- Tony B was also a very accomplished musician. He brought a dirty, funk sound to the band and with Boni B. they seem to make a great team. Just observing, it seems he was hired for his talent in live playing vice writing or contributing any thing of substantial value . . . was he asked to stay?
- Boni B. Great singer and keyboard player that I view much like Tony B.

Tell me something new, your thoughts, and provide short stories of contributions to the music. Also, how does Prince stack against his own keyboard players? From seeing him live and hearing his 1-man tracks, he sounds as if he can hold his on. When does he feel the need to bring in additional talent on keys so far as laying tracks in the studio? Who in your opinion added substantial substance to his music . . . I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

Who is Tony B. ? Are you talking about Tommy Elm a.k.a Barbarella ?

He was alright and I think he has some talent as a musician, I liked the title song to Girl 6 which was written by him but it´s difficult to make a judgment because he was sort of reduced to triggering samples during live concerts so we never really got the chance to hear something beyond that...but I liked his solos during the Ultimate Live Experience( Gold Experience ) tour.

You forgot Renato Neto who definitely brings a lot of his own style to the table, I liked him from the first moment I heard and saw him with Prince and told him so, not knowing that I ´d seen him years before when he was touring with Sheila . Renato is a very interesting element in the current incarnation of the NPG.
Speaking of the NPG, you also forgot to mention Morris Hayes, a very talented musician plus a very humble and nice person and unfortunately very underrated.

KoolEaze said:

KoolEaze, thank you. You are correct. I did mean Tommy Elm. That's some very good information on him by the way. I also left off Renato, which is a case of not taking the time to think through all the keyboard players - though I must admit: I lose track of his keyboard players after the first variant of NPG. I am trying to catch up on my musical study of Prince to the current band and set-up, but it's not easy trying to get one's hand around the sessions and who contributing what, etc. since he changes line-ups fairly quickly. Thanks again.

Unfortunately, out of all of Prince's keyboard players, I have only had the opportunity to hear Renato Neto in live performance. So my opinions are mostly based on what I've heard on records, seen on videos, and read about.

But, being a keyboard player and teacher myself, I think really that none of Prince's keyboardists have been particularly great musicians, in the sense that they've had a unique, personal style and/or contributed a lot to his music at the time.

Sure, Lisa Coleman and Dr Fink might possibly have been involved in a little songwriting in the early years, but my guess is that Prince's music wouldn't have been that different without them, anyway.

And as for the actual playing, all of his keyboardists have mostly been designated to play specific parts (which Prince himself usually came up with in the first place). During the 90's, the job expanded to include triggering loops and samples. Of course, all of this requires certain skills, but rarely on a creative level. There are a lot of people who could have followed those instructions and played keyboards in Prince's band.

To me, Renato appears to be the most versatile and proficient player. He can play in many different styles, he masters all kinds of keyboards, he takes solos, he can program sounds etc - consequently, he also has a freer role in the band than any other keyboard player before him. It seems he's allowed to take up a lot of space and pretty much make up his own parts.

However, in my personal taste, I don't really like his playing. Tommy Barbarella or Mr Hayes, for instance, were indeed much more limited (basically good funk players and not much more), but then they played soulfully and "in the pocket".

Prince himself is an ok keyboard player, but he's nowhere near as good as people seem to think he is. He actually has kind of a style of his own, which I think comes from "almost knowing" a lot of stuff...that is, he almost knows some blues licks, he almost knows some jazz chords, he almost knows some gospel cadences etc - he then uses what he's got and fills it up with other stuff that really doesn't belong there, and the result is a way of playing that noone else would think of.

It's the same with the way he uses synths - he comes up with some unique stuff partly because he doesn't know how you're "supposed to" do...
[Edited 9/26/05 10:25am]

This is an awesome topic!

I'm an amateur keyboard player and for years have been trying to figure out how Prince does what he does, and how it's re-created live. I always try to check out what the keys players are doing in concert.

I don't know the ansewrs to your questions Napoleon, but I'd love ot hear what others think.

For example, during the Pre- and Revolution days, there were so many layers of keys and synths. I find it hard to re-crate that sound, esp cuz the chord progressions themselves are farily simple. e.g. 1999, the chords are simple, but if you just play them on a piano they don't sound 'right'.

I've heard he 'adds' a lot of notes to his chords.... so what might seem like a major chord really has like 9th or 13th thrown in.

He also has that signature "horns" sound that is used throughout the 80s, esp when he says "gimme some horns"..... like in the extended "let's go crazy" you hear this cool, funky synth horn sound.

I think a lot of is using the pitch/mod wheel, plus using an oberheim type patch.

But i've wondered like what was Lisa playing vs. Fink. Fink obviously plays the monophonic solos like on Head, but like did they have a system, where Lisa would play the pads or strings (often you hear a high pad being held for measures on end) while fink played the "horns" parts or what?

Also, how did they get such a fat sound with so many layesr and parts with just 2 keyboard players?? esp in the days before sequencing?? Same goes for The Time.

RealMusician said:

A lot of stuff is born out of not doing what you're supposed to do. I know Prince's keyboard playing is simpler than a lot of people realize but he did succeed in creating his own variant. That is all that matter to me. If he did do what he's "supposed to", maybe I'd think less of him and be bored with his formalism.

Make sure you don't forget Gayle Chapman. She was Prince's first keyboard player and played along side of the good Doctor. Lisa eventually replaced her.

I don´t want to sound too negative but after the Musicology tour I hav eto say fuck real horns and bring back some good old keys a la Dr.Fink or Morris Hayes.
I love the occasional sounds of the great Mr. Eric Leeds, who, IMO, is THE Prince saxophonist, but 'I´m getting tired of hearing Let´s Go Crazy or DMSR with three or four horn players at the same time...it´s just too much and doesn´t do anything for me.
Don´t get me wrong, they´re all great, Maceo is a legend , Candy and Greg are cool, but it´s just too much...they´re artists in their own right and way too dominant when it comes to stage presence. And Candy shouldn´t sing at all.
The early 90´s NPG combined with Eric Leeds was the tightest band ever.

Aerogram said:

Exactly. If you look at all the musicians, composers etc that have been considered innovators through the years, you find that they often lacked at least some part of basic musical knowledge - which led them to find different ways of doing things.

Like Thelonious Monk, Elvis Presley, The Beatles, Sex Pistols etc...
[Edited 9/30/05 4:42am]

GaryMF said:

Good prespective to write from -- hopefully this will generate some response. I totally agree with you regarding Lisa's input - we're hearing the same thing. Listening to Prince old albums and The Time's (I guess Prince and Friends ), the fullness came with just overdub upon overdub. I can hear in some songs over 4 sep. keyboard parts: Chords played in the style you mentioned above. 2 sets of keys playing the melody in different tones, followed stabs of horns. Mixed and blended (I am not an engineer, but I bet Madhouseman can explain), could develop quite a full sound.

napoleon370 said:

Thanks.

But how did they do it live? esp with 80s synth tehcnology (i.e. before trigerring etc.?)

This is a great thread.

the layered keyboards were put in by multilayering it on the 24 track recorder. In fact, eventually on Purple Rain, Prince ran out of tracks and asked for another 24 track to be put into his studio at Sunset Sound.

madhouseman said:

so what did he do live? just simplify it down to 4 key parts max? (2 hands each Matt and Lisa?)

I wonder cuz i'm in a cover band of sorts and i'm the only key player and am trying to figure out how to songs like Jungle Love etc.

GaryMF said:

Sorry, I meant that on the Purple Rain album, he used 48 tracks. Live, Lisa and Matt would use two hands, just like members of The Time would do live. Prince was very strict about making as full of a sound as he needed in concert. One of the members of The Time would say something about learning your part, learning something for the other hand, and then having to learn the dance steps on top of all of that!