skywalker said:

And this from someone who refuses to read anything into TRC.

I think you're reading to much into that particular ditty.

skywalker said:

Oh, but I have. Your eyes were just closed. It's earlier in the thread. "Malechauvanistic Theocratic Order?" Ring a bell? Anyone home?

skywalker said:

Not particularly. Prince had a big, controlling hand in the script. Art reflects the artist. It came from somewhere inside of him. (I've also said that before.)

The Rainbow Children was, and still is, P's most CONtroversial album.

He isn't wearing blinkers.
The ?uestion is, r u?

"Accurate knowledge of GOD and His law..."

love

skywalker said:

well, say prince actually is a christian zombie person (god help it), what brought him there? lack of popularity, not so much fun in his life anymore, borrowing sex/love life with a borrowing wife...
i'd say, to be dogmatic you need to be blind or feeling bad, low self esteem. but then again,
they say L O V E makes you blind...

"And this from someone who refuses to read anything into TRC. lol"

I did not refuse to read anything into "The Rainbow Children". You are the one who told me that Prince's sexism, racism, and anti semitism is blatantly obvious in the lyrics. I have always maintained that the lyrics can be interpreted differently. I am just arguing that your interpretation (one of hate) is most likely not the one Prince intended.

"I think you're reading to much into that particular ditty."

Did I say that was my interpretation? No. According to you, "..Annie Christian is about Prince living in taxi cabs until Annie is crucified.." Wow. What amazing inference skills you have. You have really peeled the layers back into this song. BTW I don't want to shock you but, you know the song "Little Red Corvette"? Not really about a car.



"Oh, but I have. Your eyes were just closed. It's earlier in the thread. "Malechauvanistic Theocratic Order?" Ring a bell? Anyone home?."

Listen, I posted an explanation of my interpretation that I agreed with that analyzed each line-lines you took to be hateful,etc. You have said that you
think Prince is a racist/bigot/sexist and hateful, yet you fail to break down the lyrics and point out how your interpret the lines/words reflect this.

To me, it's pretty lazy to throw out the accusations that you did and just assume that it is apparent to everyone. The bottom line is that only a fraction of Prince fans are seeing this album as one of hate as you do.

Also, a you are basically following a rock star who you claim is a big racist chauvanistic bigot and you still think that's cool. This is kind of the equivalent of laughing along with your friends when they tell a racist joke and shrugging it off because they are still fun to hang out with.

"..Prince had a big, controlling hand in the script. Art reflects the artist. It came from somewhere inside of him....."

Art reflects life I agree. However, assuming that because his character in Purple Rain slaps women, that is Prince's way of endorsing that behavior is as off as hearing "The Rainbow Children" as an opus about endorsing hate and separation.
[Edited 9/29/05 16:43pm]

skywalker said:

WORD, skywalker!

I broke it down higher up in the post about how the lyrics are offensive (alhtough as others said, just saying "Holocaust aside" can be considered offensive in and of itself, and if you can't understand that, I don't see how anyone can explain it to you, frankly).

I'm not as familiar with Family Name, but why would he be bringing up Jewish names to begin with? And your "interpretation of it" as being a call for Jews and Blacks to unite, isn't exaclty a new concept. Read up on the civil rights history in the US and you'll find that that's exaclty what happened back in the 60s (i.e. Jews supporting civil rights, marching with Dr. King etc.). So Prince "calling for it now" doesn't really make sense.

You know what's also borderline offesnive? Your telling other people on here "You've misinterpreted it!" The reality is, none of us are Prince, none of us had converations with him about his intentions, what he really meant etc.

So the best we can do is interpret it as we see fit, but it is inappropriate for one of us to tell the other "your interpreation is WRONG!".

And if some of us hear this lyrics and think they are offensive, bigoted, or hateful, (and have logical reasons why), that is a fact. Not that he meant them that way, but that we (and others) get that reaction from them.

Of course an artist is not obligated to change his/her work, but if you knew something you said or wrote was considered hateful or bigoted, and you didn't mean it that way, why would you refuse to consider other people's feelings and reactions?

And your logic that "if it were bigoted, anti-Semitic he would 've gotten press" etc. is not proof point. Like people said, most people never heard of htsi album to begin with. Also, in our current times, speaking out against anti-Semitism isn't very "fashionable".

GaryMF said:

You mix up 2 things. I posted that I find it unrecommendable to use the Holocaust as a topic in a pop song (the intense of this debate could proof me right). On the other hand, just combining the word "Holocaust" with the word "aside" doesn't automatically make it an anti-semitic or an Holocaust-trivializing statement. It depends on the context. An in that context in that song, I (just my opinion!) clearly deduce that the Holocaust is mentioned in association with the work of the Devil.

Btw, why don't we make a vote thread "Is TRC lyrically offensive or not?" (We could send the result to NPGMC. ) That would at least make more sense than "What if Prince came out as gay" or bla bla about him screwing models from Panama.

skywalker said:

Your need to belittle aside, I have only talked about Prince's art, which is a reflection of the man, but not necessarily all of him. I haven't labeled TRC "hateful" anywhere. If I were to label it anything, it would most likely be "ugly" or "seriously misguided" or "intentionally ignorant".

But you - and others - seem to forget that we are discussing a work that is a few years old by now and doesn't necessarily reflect the artist as he is today. Maybe he actually did re-evaluate his work following reaction to it? Maybe he didn't and is even worse now? But my impression is - from everything he did publicly in 2004 - that he did, so maybe he isn't really all that bad? Maybe he just listened too much to the wrong people for awhile there?

I think that certainly he made an effort to sort of make up with his gay fanbase. So whatever I think about TRC, I can put it behind me when the artist seems like he wants to do so, too. "Forgive and forget and move on", you know? The Rainbow Children way would be to turn him away like a banished one, but I subscribe to the Lovesexy way.

I think most people have done something that maybe they shouldn't have done, but the friends and family stuck through it because they believed there was light at the end of the darkness.
[Edited 9/30/05 2:57am]

skywalker said:

(1) Is that a quote? I don't recall anyone saying that. We've been referring to a few specific lines, k?

(2) I actually agree with you in relation to the hypocritical allegation. It is somewhat hypocritical to continue to be a fan of someone who says things (even if they are only a few things) you profoundly disagree with, and in fact find to be disgusting. I throw up my hands freely and admit it. We are all hypocrites, unfortunately; there comes a time where you have to draw the line, and I have chosen not to draw it here. I feel comfortable with that decision, although believe me, I thought about stopping buying his music anymore. And that sort of decision is continually under review. However, it would be far more hypocritical of me to turn a blind eye and not speak out against the prejudice in those lines.


[Edited 9/30/05 2:50am]

TheFrog said:

Why, those words are taken right out of my mouth.

skywalker said:

Lame reply...

scififilmnerd said:

I'll put them back when i'm done.

scififilmnerd said:

Truth hurts.

"I broke it down higher up in the post about how the lyrics are offensive (alhtough as others said, just saying "Holocaust aside" can be considered offensive in and of itself, and if you can't understand that, I don't see how anyone can explain it to you, frankly)."

Look up "aside" in the dictionary. It's means "apart from" or "notwithstanding". So tell me how , in this context, "holocaust aside" is offensive. Prince brings up the holocaust, but in this instance he's not really discussing it.

I'm not as familiar with Family Name, but why would he be bringing up Jewish names to begin with? And your "interpretation of it" as being a call for Jews and Blacks to unite, isn't exaclty a new concept. Read up on the civil rights history in the US and you'll find that that's exaclty what happened back in the 60s (i.e. Jews supporting civil rights, marching with Dr. King etc.). So Prince "calling for it now" doesn't really make sense."

Family name ends with the famous soundbite of Dr. King calling for the joining of hands of all the races/religions/etc. Prince is obviously trying to conjur up the ideals of the civil rights movement of the 60's and use it as an example of the kind of unification that he is looking for. Why do you think Dr. King is on the album?


"You know what's also borderline offesnive? Your telling other people on here "You've misinterpreted it!" The reality is, none of us are Prince, none of us had converations with him about his intentions, what he really meant etc.

So the best we can do is interpret it as we see fit, but it is inappropriate for one of us to tell the other "your interpreation is WRONG!".

And if some of us hear this lyrics and think they are offensive, bigoted, or hateful, (and have logical reasons why), that is a fact. Not that he meant them that way, but that we (and others) get that reaction from them. "

You know what? You are right. Prince meant this album to be blatantly anti semitic and hateful. Your interpretation is, most likely, right on the money if this is the case.However, it has been my position all along that I think people who are interpreting this album as being one of hate, have missed the boat and have misinterpreted the lyrics.

"Of course an artist is not obligated to change his/her work, but if you knew something you said or wrote was considered hateful or bigoted, and you didn't mean it that way, why would you refuse to consider other people's feelings and reactions?"

2 reasons:

A. No one but a few fans on this website heard the lyrics of "The Rainbow Children" as hateful and bigoted.

B. Prince should change his art any time someone is offended? That'd constitute him changing damn near every album. It's his right, but not his responsibilty to do so.
And your logic that "if it were bigoted, anti-Semitic he would 've gotten press" etc. is not proof point. Like people said, most people never heard of htsi album to begin with."

C'mon hundreds of critics and major media organizations listened to this album and not one of them (with any credibility) stood up and said "Prince is anti-semitic and hateful!!!!"

"Also, in our current times, speaking out against anti-Semitism isn't very "fashionable".

What?!? Have the Nazi's taken over and I missed it? I guess we live in two different worlds if you see rampant anti-semitism going without anybody noticeing/caring.

(1) Is that a quote? I don't recall anyone saying that. We've been referring to a few specific lines, k?"

Here are quotes from earlier in the thread,K?

"..Prince is hateful and arrogant on this. Totally charmless..."

"..It's when Prince starts spewing ignorant nonsense like the things I mentioned above that he becomes charmless and annoying.."

"...funny, 83 replys and no one mentions the misogyny,the anti-semitism, the poorly disguised racism and general negative tone to the album..."


"Yeah, that's the thing. Prince on this album is basically saying that we should all come together...except for all people who believe in anything but the JW rules."

"..Men "assimilating" their women? What century is this?.."

"..Trivializing the horror of the Holocaust by saying it's nothing compared to slavery? Wow... "

"..Then there's the whole issue with criticizing Jews for their surnames..."

"..Ah, and let's not forget Prince celebrating his God killing people left and right who don't follow the JW doctrine..."

"..Prince is hateful and arrogant on this..."
[Edited 9/30/05 6:32am]

scififilmnerd said:

Listen, you know that the same people that are doggin' on Prince (christian Zombie ?) now, are the same ones who are gonna buy the new album, go to the concert, and so forth.

I am sorry that my particular post didn't entertain you more. I don't know why you are so angry at me that you want don't want to stick to the topic at hand rather that pick every little thing that I write. I don't think I have gotten that close to personally attacking you. I'm sure you'll find lots of lame posts by me if you scour this board, however, I'd like to keep discussing this album if you want.
[Edited 9/30/05 6:37am]

OdysseyMiles said:

So you're in a lotta pain now.

skywalker said:

I suppose, but we don't know. I didn't go to the ONA tour because I felt I couldn't supoort an artist with the views I felt Prince was expressing on TRC. But next time one of his tours hit Denmark I might, because like I've said, I think by his actions he has shown that the Prince that TRC represented isn't necessarily the Prince that is now.

So because someone dislikes TRC and goes to his shows this year or the next isn't necessarily hypocritical.

skywalker said:

Again, where do I come off as angry?

From where I'm standing, you're the one who's been up in arms, strangely defending an album about which you've said "I don't really like "The rainbow children" as much as some of his other stuff".

I mean, if the album really isn't that important to you, just like it really isn't that important to me, you seem to be taking the discussion a lot more seriously than certainly I do.

So if you're in it for the sake of discussion, why being so dismissive?

And no, you haven't been attacking me personally - at least not in any obvious, blatant manner, and I apppreciate that.

As far as continuing the discussion, I feel like I've said what I have to say about the issue.

skywalker said:

Why, thank you. And thank you.

"I suppose, but we don't know. I didn't go to the ONA tour because I felt I couldn't supoort an artist with the views I felt Prince was expressing on TRC. But next time one of his tours hit Denmark I might, because like I've said, I think by his actions he has shown that the Prince that TRC represented isn't necessarily the Prince that is now.

So because someone dislikes TRC and goes to his shows this year or the next isn't necessarily hypocritical."

Could it be that the Prince represented in TRC is the same Prince as now? Meaning, I never thought that TRC was Prince becoming a "Christian Zombie" to begin with. Heiress very clearly pointed out that the message of "The Rainbow Children" is basically the same thing that Prince has been saying since at least 1985.

"Again, where do I come off as angry?"

Typing in "lame reply" to a post you had nothing to do with was pretty much a jab out of nowhere for something you were not involved with. That post wasn't directed at you, but you felt, do to anger or something else, like you needed to get your 2 cents in anyways.

"From where I'm standing, you're the one who's been up in arms, strangely defending an album about which you've said "I don't really like "The rainbow children" as much as some of his other stuff".

I mean, if the album really isn't that important to you, just like it really isn't that important to me, you seem to be taking the discussion a lot more seriously than certainly I do.

So if you're in it for the sake of discussion, why being so dismissive?"

Saying thatI don't really like "The Rainbow Children" is different than claiming Prince is using that album to spread hate, anti-semitism, and racism. My reasons, for not liking the album are not because of the message, but how it's delivered. You, on the other hand, have interpreted the lyrics to be words of hate and separation.

i don't listen to the RC very much for i find it hard to sallow. I listned last night again and it came off very negative and racist. is there a reason for that?

skywalker said:

And once again you're up in arms and dismissing arguments by saying they are something other than what I have actually said. Where in my posts have I said that TRC is about hate and separation?

And since when is the same as ?


[Edited 9/30/05 8:15am]

ehuffnsd said:

negative and racist??? umm, ok...

To sum up what i think the rainbow children is an essential listen and beats musicology for being original/unique and its the best thing ive listened to between '00 annd'05.And i also think there is nothing wrong with any of prince's albums or singles since he left warner.Along with TRC i love Emancipation.Who needs that music for the masses when 90% of the masses are dumb.Keep it going p-man and dont ever change.

SKYWALKER:

it's funny.... i was going to reply your post at 6:25 where you replied ot my reply, because your comments were IMO bordering on rude and at least somewhat ignorant (e.g. telling me to look up the word "aside" in the dictionary is not the point. Why bring up the Holocaust at all if you're just going to say "notwithstanding"... it comes out of left field so why bring it up then? plus you have ot understand there is actually a movement out there that denies the Holocaust even existed).

And I personally never said Prince was intentionally trying to spread hate. Just that my and others' interpretation of certain lyrics are offesnive and sound bigoted.

At any rate, your post at 6:55 I thought was very mature and I appreciate your comments about having thoughtful debate.

we all have our interpretations and are entitled to them.

Howsever, let's not go around assuming how many people think one way or another because none of us know that.

"...And once again you're up in arms and dismissing arguments by saying they are something other than what I have actually said. Where in my posts have I said that TRC is about hate and separation? '

I said:

"Help me understand how you see so much hate in this album."


To which you replied:

"The question isn't 'how can we see it'. The question is 'how can you not?'"

Anyways--we keep going in circles with this. We better stop now or you might start making up things like you did about how JW's call themselves "the Rainbow Children". I didn't really mention that I thought it was fairly shitty to make up stuff to support your argument so let's just be done with it alright?

scififilmnerd said:

Yes, I think part of the problem is that certain people reply in this debate by belittling or just denying other people's points and arguments and stating opinoins as facts (e.g. "only a few peole on the ORG were offended" etc.)



I think you hit the nail on the head. The Prince of 2004 seems to have gotten past this "ugly" period.

It woudl explain why he Wendy got together for Tavis Smiley show, especially since she said in an interview that P basically told her (I think around 2000 or 2001) that she would have to "renounce being a lesbian and Jewish" (i'm not quoting here but paraphrasing) first.

So they seemed to have worked through it. Yu're right he was probably being influenced by someone else at the time and now seems "over it".



What else has he done in this respect? I'm very interested to know.




You're right about that. Quelle ironie!

I think i'll be re-treading old ground if I prattle on much more. I guess we'll agree to disagree.

And nice to discuss stuff with you too, skywalker.