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Thread started 08/12/05 9:31am

JediMaster

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A Look the (Possible) Inspiration for Camille

Since we've recently had a thread about Prince's brilliant alter-ego "Camille", I thought it appropriate to take a look at the person who is widely believed to be the inspiration for the character, Herculine Barbin.

Barbin was a hermaphrodite, living in the 19th century. One of hir nicknames was "Camille". Here's a couple of sources of info I found:

From The Riddle of Gender
Science, Activism, and Transgender Rights
by Deborah Rudacille:

A generation after the Chevalier d'Eon's death, a group of French doctors examined another puzzling corpse--that of a thirty-year-old railroad employee who had committed suicide in a squalid attic room in Paris. Abel Barbin, known for twenty-four years as Adelaide Herculine Barbin (and called Alexina), had been born with a body that appeared female. She was raised in a convent and became a teacher at an all-girl boarding school. Severe pain in her lower abdomen caused Alexina to seek medical assistance while employed at the school. The results of the doctor's examination changed her life forever. "His hand was already slipping under my sheet and coming to a stop at the sensitive place. It pressed upon it several times, as if to find there the solution to a difficult problem. It did not leave off at that point!!! He had found the explanation that he was looking for! But it was easy to see that it exceeded all his expectations!"

The doctor had discovered Alexina's undescended testicles and small penis, though he did not reveal this information to either Alexina or her employer, and instead advised the headmistress of the school to terminate the young schoolmistress. Alexina sought the advice of her bishop, who sent her to a second physician, a researcher, who prepared "a voluminous report, a masterpiece in the medical style, intended to ensure before the courts a petition for rectification." In June 1860, the birth register in Barbin's home district was amended, and the female Alexina became the male Abel--by an act of law, not surgery. Though the body remained the same, the legal person was transformed from female to male. The scandal that ensued when the newspapers and the public discovered that a man had been teaching in an all-girl boarding school condemned Abel to "abandonment, to cold isolation." His life as a man began in pain and confusion and plummeted rapidly into despair. He attempted to make a fresh start in Paris, but, impoverished and alone in a city that granted anonymity if not happiness, Abel was unable to make the transition from convent-bred woman to working man. He committed suicide at the age of thirty, overcome by feelings of isolation and desolation, the sense that he was absolutely alone in the world.

In his journal, Abel predicted that after his death his anomalous body would become a teaching tool and an exemplar of oddity. "When that day comes a few doctors will make a little stir around my corpse; they will shatter all the extinct mechanisms of its impulses, will draw new information from it, will analyze all the mysterious sufferings that were heaped up on a single human being." This premonition was fulfilled as Abel's body was autopsied and the genitals and internal organs probed, studied, and sketched for the edification of future physicians pondering the riddle of "hermaphrodites," individuals whose bodies did not conform to traditional notions of male and female anatomy
.

Here's a review by Le Monde of Michael Foucault's biography, which incorporates Barbin's own memoirs:

With an eye for the sensual bloom of young schoolgirls, and the torrid style of the romantic novels of her day, Herculine Barbin tells the story of her life as a hermaphrodite. Herculine was designated female at birth. A pious girl in a Catholic orphanage, a bewildered adolescent enchanted by the ripening bodies of her classmates, a passionate lover of another schoolmistress, she is suddenly reclassified as a man. Alone and desolate, he commits suicide at the age of thirty in a miserable attic in Paris.

Here, in an erotic diary, is one lost voice from our sexual past. Provocative, articulate, eerily prescient as she imagines her corpse under the probing instruments of scientists, Herculine brings a disturbing perspective to our own notions of sexuality. Michel Foucault, who discovered these memoirs in the archives of the French Department of Public Hygiene, presents them with the graphic medical descriptions of Herculine's body before and after her death. In a striking contrast, a painfully confused young person and the doctors who examine her try to sort out the nature of masculine and feminine at the dawn of the age of modern sexuality.


Personally, I find it HIGHLY likely that Prince found a kindred soul in Barbin. Someone who was feminine inside, yet was attracted to women as well. The conflicted emotions and sense of alientation that Barbin felt are also points to which Prince's works at the time also hinted at.
jedi

Do not hurry yourself in your spirit to become offended, for the taking of offense is what rests in the bosom of the stupid ones. (Ecclesiastes 7:9)
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Reply #1 posted 08/12/05 11:10am

JediMaster

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Can't believe that no one has commented on this yet!
jedi

Do not hurry yourself in your spirit to become offended, for the taking of offense is what rests in the bosom of the stupid ones. (Ecclesiastes 7:9)
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Reply #2 posted 08/12/05 11:23am

2freaky4church
1

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Cammile is a bit of a rip of George Clinton's use of slowed down voices.
All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #3 posted 08/12/05 11:25am

JediMaster

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2freaky4church1 said:

Cammile is a bit of a rip of George Clinton's use of slowed down voices.


Well, as I said on the other Camille thread, there is a definite nod to Clinton's Sir Nose Devoidofunk, as well as Bowie's characters like The Thin White Duke and Ziggy Stardust.
jedi

Do not hurry yourself in your spirit to become offended, for the taking of offense is what rests in the bosom of the stupid ones. (Ecclesiastes 7:9)
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Reply #4 posted 08/12/05 11:27am

2freaky4church
1

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Don't forget the little person in the Wizard Of Oz.
All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #5 posted 08/12/05 11:29am

JediMaster

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2freaky4church1 said:

Don't forget the little person in the Wizard Of Oz.


falloff Well, Prince always did remind me of a munchkin!
jedi

Do not hurry yourself in your spirit to become offended, for the taking of offense is what rests in the bosom of the stupid ones. (Ecclesiastes 7:9)
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Reply #6 posted 08/12/05 1:09pm

JediMaster

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Hmmm, I'm dissapointed that no one really got into this. Coulda been a cool conversation.
jedi

Do not hurry yourself in your spirit to become offended, for the taking of offense is what rests in the bosom of the stupid ones. (Ecclesiastes 7:9)
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Reply #7 posted 08/12/05 9:02pm

sitruk7

Herculine
Herculine
Herculine...



Just kidding. Yes, the concept of the altered voice was most likely inspired by George Clinton but I highly doubt that choosing the name Camille was a coincidence.I skimmed thru the text (thanks Jedi Master) and see the comparison. I wonder what the proposed Camille movie Prince was toying with would have been like. I remember the basic premise was Prince's character and Camille were musical rivals. Toward the end we find out that Prince/ Camille are schizophrenic and are actually one in the same.Interesting.
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Reply #8 posted 08/12/05 9:45pm

LLA

JediMaster said:

Since we've recently had a thread about Prince's brilliant alter-ego "Camille", I thought it appropriate to take a look at the person who is widely believed to be the inspiration for the character, Herculine Barbin.

Barbin was a hermaphrodite, living in the 19th century. One of hir nicknames was "Camille". Here's a couple of sources of info I found:

From The Riddle of Gender
Science, Activism, and Transgender Rights
by Deborah Rudacille:

A generation after the Chevalier d'Eon's death, a group of French doctors examined another puzzling corpse--that of a thirty-year-old railroad employee who had committed suicide in a squalid attic room in Paris. Abel Barbin, known for twenty-four years as Adelaide Herculine Barbin (and called Alexina), had been born with a body that appeared female. She was raised in a convent and became a teacher at an all-girl boarding school. Severe pain in her lower abdomen caused Alexina to seek medical assistance while employed at the school. The results of the doctor's examination changed her life forever. "His hand was already slipping under my sheet and coming to a stop at the sensitive place. It pressed upon it several times, as if to find there the solution to a difficult problem. It did not leave off at that point!!! He had found the explanation that he was looking for! But it was easy to see that it exceeded all his expectations!"

The doctor had discovered Alexina's undescended testicles and small penis, though he did not reveal this information to either Alexina or her employer, and instead advised the headmistress of the school to terminate the young schoolmistress. Alexina sought the advice of her bishop, who sent her to a second physician, a researcher, who prepared "a voluminous report, a masterpiece in the medical style, intended to ensure before the courts a petition for rectification." In June 1860, the birth register in Barbin's home district was amended, and the female Alexina became the male Abel--by an act of law, not surgery. Though the body remained the same, the legal person was transformed from female to male. The scandal that ensued when the newspapers and the public discovered that a man had been teaching in an all-girl boarding school condemned Abel to "abandonment, to cold isolation." His life as a man began in pain and confusion and plummeted rapidly into despair. He attempted to make a fresh start in Paris, but, impoverished and alone in a city that granted anonymity if not happiness, Abel was unable to make the transition from convent-bred woman to working man. He committed suicide at the age of thirty, overcome by feelings of isolation and desolation, the sense that he was absolutely alone in the world.

In his journal, Abel predicted that after his death his anomalous body would become a teaching tool and an exemplar of oddity. "When that day comes a few doctors will make a little stir around my corpse; they will shatter all the extinct mechanisms of its impulses, will draw new information from it, will analyze all the mysterious sufferings that were heaped up on a single human being." This premonition was fulfilled as Abel's body was autopsied and the genitals and internal organs probed, studied, and sketched for the edification of future physicians pondering the riddle of "hermaphrodites," individuals whose bodies did not conform to traditional notions of male and female anatomy
.

Here's a review by Le Monde of Michael Foucault's biography, which incorporates Barbin's own memoirs:

With an eye for the sensual bloom of young schoolgirls, and the torrid style of the romantic novels of her day, Herculine Barbin tells the story of her life as a hermaphrodite. Herculine was designated female at birth. A pious girl in a Catholic orphanage, a bewildered adolescent enchanted by the ripening bodies of her classmates, a passionate lover of another schoolmistress, she is suddenly reclassified as a man. Alone and desolate, he commits suicide at the age of thirty in a miserable attic in Paris.

Here, in an erotic diary, is one lost voice from our sexual past. Provocative, articulate, eerily prescient as she imagines her corpse under the probing instruments of scientists, Herculine brings a disturbing perspective to our own notions of sexuality. Michel Foucault, who discovered these memoirs in the archives of the French Department of Public Hygiene, presents them with the graphic medical descriptions of Herculine's body before and after her death. In a striking contrast, a painfully confused young person and the doctors who examine her try to sort out the nature of masculine and feminine at the dawn of the age of modern sexuality.


Personally, I find it HIGHLY likely that Prince found a kindred soul in Barbin. Someone who was feminine inside, yet was attracted to women as well. The conflicted emotions and sense of alientation that Barbin felt are also points to which Prince's works at the time also hinted at.


You may want to take a look at this link of an old interview, "Sites O' the Times -- October 1997 (you will need to scroll down a bit to this specific interview and then scroll down some more to the "Camille" reference):


Click on this link for the interview:
http://princetext.tripod....ion97.html



[/]
[Edited 8/14/05 20:49pm]
[Edited 8/14/05 20:55pm]
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Reply #9 posted 08/12/05 11:38pm

Moonwalkbjrain

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i sooooo want to read that dudes journal
Yesterday is dead...tomorrow hasnt arrived yet....i have just ONE day...
...And i'm gonna be groovy in it!
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Reply #10 posted 08/13/05 4:32pm

KoolEaze

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If I recall correctly Prince admitted the connection a few years ago when a fan asked him.
" I´d rather be a stank ass hoe because I´m not stupid. Oh my goodness! I got more drugs! I´m always funny dude...I´m hilarious! Are we gonna smoke?"
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Reply #11 posted 08/13/05 5:58pm

Aerogram

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KoolEaze said:

If I recall correctly Prince admitted the connection a few years ago when a fan asked him.


Surprising if true. Prince must have taken an interest in hermaphrodism. I would not think he would take the time to research the history unless someone told him about "Herculine".
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Reply #12 posted 08/13/05 7:24pm

BananaCologne

KoolEaze said:

If I recall correctly Prince admitted the connection a few years ago when a fan asked him.


Interview with Yahoo Internet Life magazine (1997)

© 1997 Yahoo! Internet Life magazine / Parke

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Reply #13 posted 08/15/05 6:14am

JediMaster

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BananaCologne said:

KoolEaze said:

If I recall correctly Prince admitted the connection a few years ago when a fan asked him.


Interview with Yahoo Internet Life magazine (1997)

© 1997 Yahoo! Internet Life magazine / Parke




Here's the bit about Camille:

Yahoo Internet Life: This may sound nuts, but does the Camille alter ego, which you used on Sign O' the Times, have anything to do with the famous nineteenth-century hermaphrodite Herculine Barbin, who was nicknamed Camille? If so, my younger brother will be very, very happy, since he has spent roughly a decade trying to convince me of this.

prince : Your brother is very wise.


To me, this is an admission, but some folks disagree. This was debated on the other Camille thread, and actually led me to create this thread.
jedi

Do not hurry yourself in your spirit to become offended, for the taking of offense is what rests in the bosom of the stupid ones. (Ecclesiastes 7:9)
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Reply #14 posted 08/15/05 6:15am

JediMaster

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sitruk7 said:

Herculine
Herculine
Herculine...



Just kidding. Yes, the concept of the altered voice was most likely inspired by George Clinton but I highly doubt that choosing the name Camille was a coincidence.I skimmed thru the text (thanks Jedi Master) and see the comparison. I wonder what the proposed Camille movie Prince was toying with would have been like. I remember the basic premise was Prince's character and Camille were musical rivals. Toward the end we find out that Prince/ Camille are schizophrenic and are actually one in the same.Interesting.



That IS interesting! Very Fight Club!
jedi

Do not hurry yourself in your spirit to become offended, for the taking of offense is what rests in the bosom of the stupid ones. (Ecclesiastes 7:9)
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Reply #15 posted 08/15/05 7:27am

BananaCologne

JediMaster said:[quote]

BananaCologne said:




Here's the bit about Camille:

Yahoo Internet Life: This may sound nuts, but does the Camille alter ego, which you used on Sign O' the Times, have anything to do with the famous nineteenth-century hermaphrodite Herculine Barbin, who was nicknamed Camille? If so, my younger brother will be very, very happy, since he has spent roughly a decade trying to convince me of this.

prince : Your brother is very wise.


To me, this is an admission, but some folks disagree. This was debated on the other Camille thread, and actually led me to create this thread.


Yeah - thanks fro creating this dude, as I was thinking recently about bringing this up - you beat me to it! Very interesting topic I reckon, so kudos.

What a life she had. sad
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Reply #16 posted 08/15/05 7:55am

JediMaster

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BananaCologne said:

JediMaster said:



To me, this is an admission, but some folks disagree. This was debated on the other Camille thread, and actually led me to create this thread.


Yeah - thanks fro creating this dude, as I was thinking recently about bringing this up - you beat me to it! Very interesting topic I reckon, so kudos.

What a life she had. sad


nod Glad to see the topic caught on!
jedi

Do not hurry yourself in your spirit to become offended, for the taking of offense is what rests in the bosom of the stupid ones. (Ecclesiastes 7:9)
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Reply #17 posted 08/15/05 10:08am

Tom

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His Camille voice always reminded me of Stevie Wonder, ala Maybe Your Baby
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Reply #18 posted 08/15/05 11:37am

JediMaster

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Tom said:

His Camille voice always reminded me of Stevie Wonder, ala Maybe Your Baby


I can see that. Definitely a bit of it in there. As I stated, I also see a whole lot of Clinton's Sir Nose in there.

Interesting side note: Anyone ever noticed the "girl" voice on George Michael's "Hard Day" (from the Faith album) bears a strong resemblance to Camille? George would have been wrapping up the Faith recording at the time that SOTT dropped, so I have to wonder if it inspired him at all?
[Edited 8/15/05 11:44am]
jedi

Do not hurry yourself in your spirit to become offended, for the taking of offense is what rests in the bosom of the stupid ones. (Ecclesiastes 7:9)
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Reply #19 posted 08/15/05 12:02pm

KoolEaze

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JediMaster said:[quote]

BananaCologne said:




Here's the bit about Camille:

Yahoo Internet Life: This may sound nuts, but does the Camille alter ego, which you used on Sign O' the Times, have anything to do with the famous nineteenth-century hermaphrodite Herculine Barbin, who was nicknamed Camille? If so, my younger brother will be very, very happy, since he has spent roughly a decade trying to convince me of this.

prince : Your brother is very wise.


To me, this is an admission, but some folks disagree. This was debated on the other Camille thread, and actually led me to create this thread.



See, that´s what I´m talking about.
" I´d rather be a stank ass hoe because I´m not stupid. Oh my goodness! I got more drugs! I´m always funny dude...I´m hilarious! Are we gonna smoke?"
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Reply #20 posted 08/15/05 12:11pm

blackwell1

Stevie Wonder also used the sped-up voice in the early 70s. Check out "Maybe Your Baby,'' especially at the end.
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Reply #21 posted 08/15/05 12:37pm

JediMaster

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blackwell1 said:

Stevie Wonder also used the sped-up voice in the early 70s. Check out "Maybe Your Baby,'' especially at the end.


Check out Tom's post, about three up.
jedi

Do not hurry yourself in your spirit to become offended, for the taking of offense is what rests in the bosom of the stupid ones. (Ecclesiastes 7:9)
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