I WAS interested in seeing if others had to change their perception of Prince's talent as they learned more about him other the years.

But people would rather think ... oh here's a thread that's negative and critical about Prince, let's bash.

That's so not what this thread is about.

...

There is also one song (which I cant remember) that is EXACTLY the same musically as another track done about 20 years before...Im sure its The Ride but I cant rememeber who its a copy of

whatever Prince borrowed from others, he shaped it into something uniquely his.

OK.

When I say original. I mean someone who does not consciously imitate. Someone who comes up with his own ideas. Someone who is self-directed.


With that in mine, Prince appears to have had a lot of help shaping the 'Prince persona" that I thought sprung from his own inner muse alone.


But by his own admission he's "a follower"

Yes, I know managers craft people. But Prince is supposed to be a genius right? And before a couple of years ago, I didn't know his "genius" benefited from this much crafting.


Perhaps it's my naivete. But yes, I do believe the shining god gets more diminished the more I learn about his history...
[Edited 7/17/05 14:17pm]

SynthiaRose said:

In response to this point, no it didn't change my perceptions of him because the cat is still an immensely talented genius. Instead it gave me a greater appreciation for and understanding of Prince and his influences. In the process it opened the door to countless musicians I would have overlooked in the past. It just amazes me that someone would be able to absorb so many factors and come up with a unique whole. No matter what he is an original because he combined numerous factors that were not found in a complete package. People find their visions in different ways and the journey is constantly evolving. The difference is today we have the technology to dissect every little aspect of everything, so we are privy to intimate details about legends that was not readily available in the past. Still does not change their contributions, just puts it in more context.

* A manager first recommended that he sing in his now trademark falsetto

Wow. What a disappointing debate.

I'm not going to respond to half of this.

First, I'm obviously a Prince fan. In my post I said I loved him, but I keep learning that things I associate with him didn't spring innately from him.


I've been accused of "stealing" others "concepts" in my list, when my list is a summary of observations. Of course the summary pulls from things on the board and books and interviews, etc. It's not conceived as original.


Next, a couple have pointed out the criticism about Wendy spurring his use of metaphor. Of course I know poetry has metaphor and art in general have metaphor. That's not the point. The point is that PRINCE started using it for HIS music at someone else's suggestion.

Just like with using his falsetto. Someone mentioned other soul singers use falsettos. Again, that's not the point. I'd rather read that Prince decided this would be his signature voice instead of reading that a manager suggested it to him.

Same thing with the other complaints. HE incorporated things into his already ongoing schtick after others suggested it. I don't know why it's so difficult for people to comprehend.

The theory that no one can be original is faulty. People think original thoughts everyday ... meaning they think, analyze, create, and synthesize without regard to what's gone before. Even if their creation parallels something already made ... it's original because they, using their minds alone, conceived it. They didn't look and imitate. What has gone before should be inspiration and stimuli not whole building blocks of an artist's design.

Anyway, instead of looking at the issue and dissecting it .. for some reason people want to act like I'm the opponent, when I'm clearly a fan who feels bamboozled.

You all can be delusional if you want, but if you've believed something to be genius and actually find it's a patchquilt of other things and that said person couldn't come up with his own schtick on his own ... it's a big let down.

SynthiaRose said:

Ahhh, you're disappointed, that's a shame. NOT! You're entitled to your opinions and so are we, the facts that they differ are just par for the course around here, hun. Deal with it!

If you are as truly disappointed and let down as you are trying to convince us you are because of stuff you've read around here and in some books. That only show's that you are the one that's "easily led and a follower".

If it's about the music, what difference does it make how it came about?

If you feel so "bamboozled" because you found out Prince is a human entertainer, and not the mythical, mystical, demigod, you've built up in your mind, then perhaps it's time for you to move on. There comes a time in a person's life when things that once held high relevance, just no longer does it. It happens!

If you've got any "good" Prince stuff, on your way out, post a list, I'm sure some "delusional" person around here will be glad to take it off your hands.

Buh-bye!

SynthiaRose said:

I have heard those old boom-box demos and I can say that prince was singing like that before he had an manager. As of matter of fact his managers were trying to get him to sing from the stomach and he refused saying that at that time it would hurt his voice.
[Edited 7/18/05 5:50am]

SexyBeautifulOne said:

I've already acknowledged that differing views are welcomed. That's what a mature debate/discussion is.

As for your glibness, I'll not respond to that.

You've been trying to get a rise out of me from your first post.
But I don't operate like that.

actually Bitch was wayyyyy before white horse by Laid Back...

interesting discussion.


To the person who asked which artist had used the "purple rain" line in a song before Prince...it was the 70s soft rock group America.They used that phrase in a song from the early 70s.

Prince sure has a lot of imitators, so I bet that must mean someone out there thinks he is pretty original.

TheRealFiness said:

that too.

SexyBeautifulOne said:

I've already acknowledged that differing views are welcomed. That's what a mature debate/discussion is.

As for your glibness, I'll not respond to that.

You've been trying to get a rise out of me from your first post.
But I don't operate like that.

Handclapsfingasnapz said:

Yeah, I acknowledged in an above post that it was "Erotic City" not Bitch, as I mistated, that mimicked White Horse. EC came after White Horse I believe, although it seems they both were on radio at the same period.

-----
He stole lyrics, music, and riffs from bandmates and friends. (I JUST this week found out Morris Day wrote Party UP. )
-----
Sorry Morris gave the song to Prince for a recording contract. I don't think anyone thinks Prince sprung up by himself without influnces and I doubt you would have been attacked if half of what you typed was not wrong.


"(* He stole the girl group idea from somebody else. "

Can you steal the idea of a girl group. They have been around since the Andrew Sisters.

Irrestible Bitch copies White Horse

NO IB was out before White Horse and IB is more of JB rip.

"Around the World in a Day's psycadelic atmosphere is stolen from the Beatles. "

Really what about the dozens of other artist that were influenced by the Beatles.

"He's not the first singer to use "purple rain" as a lyric. "

Do you really think Prince was listening to "America"? The Purple things seems to go back to his dad.

"A lot of his new philosophies are quoted directly from watchtower or the bible. "


All christians get their philosphies from the Bible (LOL)


" He rips off more than Jay-Z. "

Comparing Prince to Jay-Z is just strange.

[...]for a major artist to clone his style through a girl group is not as pervasive as you suggest.

laurarichardson said:

Hi Laura,
1. Party-up is Prince's first social message. It is not common knowledge that the song came from Morris. So some like me might credit this song as the initial reveal that Prince is more than sexual innuendo. But thanks to Dugen's post on this thread, I now know Morris just came up with the drumbeat. Whew, thank goodness. Image of prince is preserved on that aspect.


2. Girl Group - for a major artist to clone his style through a girl group is not as pervasive as you suggest. But, I don't really mind that Prince copied this idea ... it's just think when you look at a range of copied ideas so see a pattern that makes you question a person's artistic independence.


3. Yeah, about Irresistible Bitch. I already corrected that in two other posts. I named the wrong song, but the fact remains that many people think Prince used White Horse as a pattern for Erotic City.

4. "Purple Rain" as a lyric. My god, who thinks of putting that unique phrasing together. I honestly never thought anybody had before Prince. I thought that was so unique. People came up with all these theories about the red of blood in war and mixing with the blue sky to create the purple rain imagery in Prince's song. But yeah, I sure he heard the phrase "purple rain" before and thought it was cool.

5. Not all people take their religious beliefs from doctrine. He presented himself in his Uptown philosophy as someone who is counter-culture and thinks on his own. I don't know how true that is.

6. The Jay Z thing ... it's just well known that Jay-Z quotes other rappers phrases without giving them credit. He says he's paying homage. One can argue Prince is doing the same thing.

7. " I doubt you would have been attacked if half of what you typed was not wrong." Laura, I don't think half of what I typed is wrong. Irrestible Bitch was wrong, but just substitute Erotic City and the statement is fine. My information is gathered from various books, web pages, and interviews I've read over the years. I can't vouch for all of them. But I'm sure I'm not the only one who's heard these things.

Hearing them in isolation is one thing, but putting all the stuff together and seeing a pattern should make one ask questions. I'm actually surprised people are so forgiving of his tendency to lift things.
[Edited 7/18/05 11:01am]

"Purple Rain" as a lyric. My god, who thinks of putting that unique phrasing together. I honestly never thought anybody had before Prince"


Prince said he got it from his dad. We will never know will we.

I WAS interested in seeing if others had to change their perception of Prince's talent as they learned more about him other the years.

But people would rather think ... oh here's a thread that's negative and critical about Prince, let's bash.

That's so not what this thread is about.

.Party-up - It is well known. You just did not know and stop taking everything Prince ever wrote, did or said so seriously. He was a young guy trying to sell records. He used his Uptown manifesto as a marketing tool. Why some people are still taking it seriously 20 plus years later is beyond me.

laurarichardson said:

are you willing to say the same for other anti-establishment songs made by other acts in the same vein that were done pre-"partyup"?

Handclapsfingasnapz said:

-----
You know I would not be surprised if other people did it before Prince but, some artist may have been serious and using it to sell records.

Ant-Music for Ant people Adam and the Ants.

David Bowie and his whole Space Oddity thing.

Maybe Funkadelic. With the Cult Mantra that is found inside the Maggot Brain CD.