Over my years as a fan and member of this site, disturbing things have been revealed that make me question whether Prince is self-made at all...

For example:

* His sexual lyrics came about not as his idea, but because a manager suggested he needed a gimmic to sell.

* A manager first recommended that he sing in his now trademark falsetto.

* His use of metaphor (which is responsible for some of the best lyrics) in part evolved because Wendy helped him "see color and tone" and because Warner Bros. didn't want him mentioning God directly.


* He stole lyrics, music, and riffs from bandmates and friends. (I JUST this week found out Morris Day wrote Party UP. )

* His dress style is a copy cat of Little Richard and Jimi Hendrix.

* HIs guitar playing copies Santana.

* None of his dance moves are original.

* He stole the girl group idea from somebody else.

* Irrestible Bitch copies White Horse. CORRECTION: Erotic City copies White Horse.

* Around the World in a Day's psycadelic atmosphere is stolen from the Beatles.

* He's not the first singer to use "purple rain" as a lyric.

* A lot of his new philosophies are quoted directly from watchtower or the bible.


I love Prince, but he seems really easily influenced by others. He rips off more than Jay-Z.

Don't get me wrong, he's done some great stuff (I think most of it was him), but I gotta wonder if his innovation is stalling now because there's no one around to rip off...

Am I forgetting other examples?
[Edited 7/18/05 18:08pm]

nothing new here ...
but he TRADED Party Up for the first album of The Time
His dress style is 100% Sly Stone!
The girl band: George Clinton's / James brown's or Rich James' ?

So what! None of it was done the way Prince did it, and whomever suggested, wrote, taught, or used any of what you suggest, without the Prince factor, it didn't matter any damn way!

I could say you borrowed your unoriginal negativity from half of this board, but what would be the point!

SexyBeautifulOne said:

Let's discuss without berating those with opposing opinions.

I've found out over time that Prince isnt quite as original as I had first thought...but he's still very original.

I noticed a few times,after listening to some old school artists that Prince has often lifted whole rhythms and stuff from his influences.

There is also one song (which I cant remember) that is EXACTLY the same musically as another track done about 20 years before...Im sure its The Ride but I cant rememeber who its a copy of

It's Erotic city that sounds like white horse, not irristible bitch.

PRINCE 'THE CREATIVE SPONGE' ROGERS NELSON'
not bad though considering hes released 30+ albums and still kicks ass live in 2005,
[Edited 7/17/05 13:04pm]

thedog said:

You're right. Thanks.

DorothyParkerWasCool said:

Good point.

But I used to think he was such a visionary...
[Edited 7/17/05 13:14pm]

SynthiaRose said:

Alright let's see...

* His sexual lyrics came about not as his idea, but because a manager suggested he needed a gimmic to sell.

* A manager first recommended that he sing in his now trademark falsetto.

That's what managers do, they make suggestions to their clients to help further along their careers, i.e This will work, this won't work, try this don't try that. Regardless of where the suggestion came from, it was Prince who pulled it off!

* His use of metaphor (which is responsible for some of the best lyrics) in part evolved because Wendy helped him "see color and tone" and because Warner Bros. didn't want him mentioning God directly.

People that work together often influence each other, it happens. Hmm, I guess I'm thankful to WB then because I definately loved the metaphoric way Prince got his point across. It worked out for the better, imagine that!


* He stole lyrics, music, and riffs from bandmates and friends. (I JUST this week found out Morris Day wrote Party UP. sad )

I'm sorry but the reason you even know Morris Day's name is because of who?

* His dress style is a copy cat of Little Richard and Jimi Hendrix.

This may come a shock to you but there aren't many entertainers that haven't copied something from Little Richard and Jimi Hendrix! At least Prince has the talent deserving of carrying on their legacies!

* HIs guitar playing copies Santana.

* None of his dance moves are original.

* He stole the girl group idea from somebody else.

* Irrestible Bitch copies White Horse

* Around the World in a Day's psycadelic atmosphere is stolen from the Beatles.

* He's not the first singer to use "purple rain" as a lyric.

I'm not even gonna waste my energy on the rest of that drivel you got out of some book.

* A lot of his new philosophies are quoted directly from watchtower or the bible.

You haven't been paying attention have you, his philosophies have always centered around the bible in one way or another.


I love Prince, but he seems really easily influenced by others. He rips off more than Jay-Z. Yeah, ok.

Don't get me wrong, he's done some great stuff (I think most of it was him), but I gotta wonder if his innovation is stalling now because there's no one around to rip off...

I find it simply amazing that the only entertainer in the world today that is EXPECTED to be "innovative" is Prince. It's simply not EXPECTED from any other performer, I wonder why that is?

Nothing in this world is original

Imitation is how humans naturally learn. It's how all of one's
different influences are combined that makes him/her unique.

True originality in this world is pretty much impossible to
come by, reasonabley so .

"The spirit of Jimi Hendrix must surely smile down on Prince Rogers Nelson. Like Hendrix, Prince seems to have tapped into some extraterrestrial musical dimension where black and white styles are merely different aspects of the same funky thing. Like Jimi and Sly, Prince is an original; but apart from that, he's like no one else."-Kurt Loder

SynthiaRose said:

DorothyParkerwascool said exactly what I was thinking

and why would Prince no longer be "such a visionary"
anymore? Does the fact that he is a human being and not
a god take away from him?
He is able to weave together so many ideas into one
unique package and somehow make it work.
Even the most cynical "Prince bashers" I've met will admit that
and give him respect for it, often saying stuff like,
"Damn! Only Prince could pull that off"

He hasn't broken any new ground by being the first guy to
play multiple instruments, or the first man to sport long hair
and tight pants. He's not the only guy on earth with a
falsetto voice, and he is not the first or the best person
to use metaphors in his lyrics. He certainly is not the only man named Prince
However he has a way of putting all those things plus some
into a bag, shaking them up a bit
and coming out with a style and sound that most people
would unmistakenly identify as "Prince"

thekidsgirl said:

I love Prince.

blusapphire said:

me too

OK.

When I say original. I mean someone who does not consciously imitate. Someone who comes up with his own ideas. Someone who is self-directed.


With that in mine, Prince appears to have had a lot of help shaping the 'Prince persona" that I thought sprung from his own inner muse alone.


But by his own admission he's "a follower"

Yes, I know managers craft people. But Prince is supposed to be a genius right? And before a couple of years ago, I didn't know his "genius" benefited from this much crafting.


Perhaps it's my naivete. But yes, I do believe the shining god gets more diminished the more I learn about his history...
[Edited 7/17/05 14:17pm]

You gotta be kiddin' right?. P has melded all his influences in to a vast array of styles and pulled them all together in a staggering array of Albums from For You through to Lovesexy by which time time he had done all that he could on record, on tour, in production, and overall in totally dominating the creative side of music making upto '88. James Brown did funk/soul, Jimmy did rock, Sly did funk,Al Green did the falsetto, Joni did "colour", Miles did Jazz innovation, The Beatles did Innovation in production/variety and Psychadelia, Elvis did Sex appeal, etc but apart from Bowie I cannot think of a single artist who took all these influences , soaked em' up and made them into something so unique. So unique in fact that he earned the right to do whatever the hell pleased post '88.
Personally i love a whole lot of the stuff he's done since then. Every artist has his influences it's the most natural thing in the world but you do not build a 25 year+ career and still manage to fill stadium after stadium without having some talent. Trouble with prince is that he has way too much talent in too many different areas to be fully appreciated yet and let's face it todays market , in general terms, couldn't give a shit as to who wrote, played or produced an album / song as long as it has a decent hook and a good video!!.

"...there's nothing new under the sun..." (Ecclesiastes)
every lit bit of something has come from somewhere else

Of course people are going to respond with "everyone steals" or "everyone has their influences" or "it's impossible to be 100% original" and such. BUT Prince has stolen ideas from cohorts and bandmates, HAS overtly stolen various things from his predecessors and is a hypocrit for trying to create the image of this omni-talented uber musician who did everything himself when it's clear that he didn't. I think there are other musicians, perhaps among prince's idols and predecessors, who have either been MORE original, if not entirely so, or have been more careful about crediting their collaborations and influences. None of this is attempting to invalidate prince's accomplishments, but I think in the past he's been somewhat of an arrogant jerk by attempting to disguise the assistance or the inspiration he used in creating his music. That being said though, it is a fundamental truth that all that "creativity" and "imagination" consists of is combining and rearranging images and ideas that have entered your mind externally.
[Edited 7/17/05 14:57pm]

Prince's influences have always been obvious. It's the way he has put his own quirkiness into his work that makes him unique. And as he's gotten older, I think he has more readily acknowledged the help he's gotten musically and personally.
Anyway, who cares if singing in falsetto wasn't his idea. Does it make "Adore" any less great?

Prince is a visionary, and a orginal. As soon as you here a Prince song, u know it's Prince. That comes from a unique artistic approach, & original sense of aesthetic. Inspiration, and stealing are a fine line. Let me clarify some of your claims:

* His sexual lyrics came about not as his idea, but because a manager suggested he needed a gimmic to sell.

Even back before he came into the mainstream (before a label deal, etc). He wrote suggestive songs. Chris Moon, Pepe Willie, Chaz Smith, alot of people who knew him early in his career back up that claim.


* A manager first recommended that he sing in his now trademark falsetto.
"Trademark falsetto"-is kind of a oxymoron. It's a standard for a soul artist, what makes him special-his usage of his falsetto (more rock oriented arrangements), plus his tone is sweet. Not many rock artists sing in a falsetto. Not as common as soul artists.


* His use of metaphor (which is responsible for some of the best lyrics) in part evolved because Wendy helped him "see color and tone" and because Warner Bros. didn't want him mentioning God directly.

That one doesn't even make sense...ever hear of poetry.


* He stole lyrics, music, and riffs from bandmates and friends. (I JUST this week found out Morris Day wrote Party UP. )

Stealing from bandmates is a dicey situation (I know-I am a musician). There is always a leader in a rehersal/songwriting session or in a band. It's interactive, everyone is vibing off eachother. Usually the guy holding court, setting the tone, getting the final word on the arrangement, gets the credit. Sometimes they share credit, sometimes they don't. Miles was infamous for putting together the "right" people to put write material. Prince is know different.


* His dress style is a copy cat of Little Richard and Jimi Hendrix.

And little Richard was inspired by Zoot culture, street culture, etc. He didn't have people design clothes until the 60's. Hendrix dressed like the guys from Cream, and copped his hair-doo from Dylan. It was just a 60's look.

* HIs guitar playing copies Santana.

We all have our heroes. he definetly aspires to get that clean, sexy, ethereal, tone Santana. But he does his own thing for the most part. Much more old school approach (like Ike Turner)

* None of his dance moves are original.

Sure they are.

* He stole the girl group idea from somebody else.

Who Rick James, who did Rick take it from Berry Gordy, Phil Spector, etc. The "girl group idea" has been around since the beginning of music...umm so yeah

* Irrestible Bitch copies White Horse

what?

* Around the World in a Day's psycadelic atmosphere is stolen from the Beatles.

And the Beatles lifted it from eastern music, the beach boys, and the overall culture leaning towards Eastern music and trends. So yeah-if you cop any Eastern stuff-it'll sound psychadelic. The Beatles were not the first.

* He's not the first singer to use "purple rain" as a lyric.

Really, who else did?

* A lot of his new philosophies are quoted directly from watchtower or the bible.

You got me there. But i bet you "Stole" most of these concepts by talking to someone about this. So you probably "Stole" there ideas as well.

Take it easy....

Prince trys different genre's, but they usually always come out Prince. That's why he is ORIGINAL.

NN

jacktheimprovident said:

In the sue happy society we've lived in for the past 20 years, I just find it rather strange that none of his cohorts, bandmates, or whomever he's allegedly "stolen" from and never given credit to, have never attempted to sue him, or at least spoken out "publicly" against him about what would have been rightfully theirs.

I know I wouldn't sit back for years and watch someone make a bogus illustrious omni-talented career from the sweat off my brow without some form of compensation. The only griping I've ever heard comes from people that have nothing to do with it, those that have their own axes to grind, and those that are trying to make a buck of their own.

As far as his idols and predecessors go, I'm sure if we go through their repertoire, we would also find reminisce of their idols and predecessor's influence. Big whoop!

As Snap quoted, "...there's nothing new under the sun..." Just look at the crap churning out of Hollywood these days!

neronava said:

You hit the nail on the head.

That's why I responded with what I said in my initial post. Everyone is influenced by someone and or something, when you find out the culture the person was living in at the time, you will understand their influences. Furthermore, damn near every musician borrows and or steals ideas from bandmates. We are fooling ourselves if we think Prince is the only one doing so.

Prince created something unique by combining all of his influences, that's what makes him a visionary. He is a shitload of musicians wrapped up in one package, that's what makes him unique. How often do u see a competent singer that plays great lead and rhythm guitar, is a great bass player, versitale songwriter, pianist, dancer etc. And he's a fabulous producer, there aren't too many people out there with that combination. A complete musician who is also a great live entertainer and accessible.

People will go on and on and on about on his bad treatment of bandmates, but that happens in all bands. Does it make it right no, but does it make his particular situation unique, HELL NO. You can find disparaging remarks from many associates of legendary musicians, but that does not detract from their accomplishments.
[Edited 7/17/05 17:29pm]

thekidsgirl said:

So true ,i can't believe someone went to all that bother to type out Prince is not original and copied other people,it does not take anything from him.

On top of everything, when Prince "copies", he does not make it a secret. You think that when Prince doned his wardrobe for Purple Rain and the Whend Doves Cry video, he thought no one would notice the Hendrix touches? Or that when he does a JB move or shout, he thinks no one will notice? He wants people to notice them all right -- these are called "references". He was aligning himself with parts of his heritage, not pulling a fast one on creativity.`

A lot of your other points are weak. Metaphors and falseto? These are entirely expected. As is management's input, plus the girl group "idea" was hardly new.`

Wow. What a disappointing debate.

I'm not going to respond to half of this.

First, I'm obviously a Prince fan. In my post I said I loved him, but I keep learning that things I associate with him didn't spring innately from him.


I've been accused of "stealing" others "concepts" in my list, when my list is a summary of observations. Of course the summary pulls from things on the board and books and interviews, etc. It's not conceived as original.


Next, a couple have pointed out the criticism about Wendy spurring his use of metaphor. Of course I know poetry has metaphor and art in general have metaphor. That's not the point. The point is that PRINCE started using it for HIS music at someone else's suggestion.

Just like with using his falsetto. Someone mentioned other soul singers use falsettos. Again, that's not the point. I'd rather read that Prince decided this would be his signature voice instead of reading that a manager suggested it to him.

Same thing with the other complaints. HE incorporated things into his already ongoing schtick after others suggested it. I don't know why it's so difficult for people to comprehend.

The theory that no one can be original is faulty. People think original thoughts everyday ... meaning they think, analyze, create, and synthesize without regard to what's gone before. Even if their creation parallels something already made ... it's original because they, using their minds alone, conceived it. They didn't look and imitate. What has gone before should be inspiration and stimuli not whole building blocks of an artist's design.

Anyway, instead of looking at the issue and dissecting it .. for some reason people want to act like I'm the opponent, when I'm clearly a fan who feels bamboozled.

You all can be delusional if you want, but if you've believed something to be genius and actually find it's a patchquilt of other things and that said person couldn't come up with his own schtick on his own ... it's a big let down.

I WAS interested in seeing if others had to change their perception of Prince's talent as they learned more about him other the years.

But people would rather think ... oh here's a thread that's negative and critical about Prince, let's bash.

That's so not what this thread is about.

SynthiaRose said:

In all fairness I don't everyone directing the discussion towards your initial posts. I think many of us are responding to other comments within the thread.
[Edited 7/17/05 20:28pm]