I've been thinking quite a bit about the effect that the internet has had on circulating recordings particularly in the last 5 years or so.

It seems to me that file sharing and CD burners have created a situation where a particular song or concert is either out there and available or it isn't. That is to say that there is no notion of rarity anymore.

It seems to me that anyone in possesion of an uncirculating song like say Cosmic Day is far less likely to release that recording to a bootlegger or indeed a friend who may then upload it somewhere. If this happens net result is that anyone with a computer can save that song, share it with their friends it then completely enters the public domain.

The technology can not be uninvented I think the only way we will hear any really significant uncirculating recordings is if some bootleg label or individual pays someone a hell of a lot of money!

Your views on this?

soulyacolia said:

And why the hell not? Why is it so important to make a buck off of uncirculating Prince music?

Personally, if I had that kind of thing to share, everyone would have it. I would make sure of it.

There are a couple of really great Orgers here who shared some music with me that I would have never heard otherwise, and I've tried to do the same for others. I think that's the way it should be.

yeah...its frustrating that prince just doesnt release it all.....touring is the only reasonable revenue maker for artist.....the smart ones already know this and are selling the recorded concert right after the show...

its an awesome way to capatalize on their talents.....

the album/single hype is only a necessity for someone with no talent (ie britney, justin, j-glo)....

i dont deal with bootlegs because thats like stealing prince's music and i dont want to do that. even if someone offered it to me i wouldnt take it.

I hear people are willing to give hundreds for Cosmic Day already.

Tiffypoo2004 said:

but what if your not buying them?


ive had people burn bootlegged stuff for me...and i always offer copies of the unreleased wendy and lisa stuff..

if the artist has no intentions of releasing the work i dont see anything wrong with fans sharing....the sound quality is usually crap so if prince wants to one day release the stuff it would have built up an audience...

i personally dont think prince wants to release his previous bootlegged work cause he knows he cant compete with his past anymore....

paisleypark4 said:

they some dumb bastids if they willing to shell out money for one fuckin song.

I guess in the old days bootleg cds and videos were only available at markets or by mail order. The bootleggers got their cash upfront. Now all those cds sold over the years have been uploaded to the internet, and you can pretty much bypass giving the bootleggers cash. I bet bootleggers are pretty pissed off about that. But really they can't complain - they stole music from Prince, now we're stealing it from them!

I've heard there haven't been any new studio bootlegs since around '96, Prince has really plugged the leaks. I guess there aren't any digruntled employees there anymore or something! So the only way bootleggers can make money is from regurgitating older compilations anyway.

Essentially this means that recordings that once were rare to find are now easily accessible on the internet. However, it's not quite that simple. Not every p2p file sharing system has every Prince rarity online all the time - you still have to do a fair share of looking around and collecting, unless you know someone who knows where to get it all. So a lot of the unreleased stuff is still 'rare' in that it is not completely easy to get. Plus there's always new fans who are starting from scratch and to which all this is new stuff.

If someone somewhere has got an as yet uncirculating rarity, they clearly don't want to share it after all this time, whether it is because of the internet or not. They must just want to keep it to themselves for the sake of it. Which is a bit like keeping a painting of a masterpiece in a private gallery - selfish!

Bootleggers also of course record live shows for us. There are tons of shows circulating on the net, but again, you still have to hunt around. Though I guess if bootleggers no longer make money out of the live shows (because it quickly ends up on the net and they get bypassed) then they will stop bothering to record the shows and get a proper job. Which would be bad for us.

Kind of ironic that the record companies are having to change their business practices because of albums being bootlegged onto the internet, and now bootleggers will have to change their practices - for exactly the same reason!

I still believe Prince is missing a trick by not releasing this stuff in perfect quality himself. It's really not that hard to turn music into mp3s and slap it up on some web space! However, a lot of the vault material he obviously didn't think was good or he would have put it on an album or b-side at the time of recording. He just doesn't want to be rated by that old stuff if he can help it. It's a bit like people being allowed to see his home movies or something.

soulyacolia said:

Filesharing is the only time Communism has ever worked.

While I totally understand the "thrill of the hunt" aspect from seeking out boots back in the day (Not that I ever did anything like that.... ) but I've come to discover in recent years that there's really no point in the whole "Whoever dies with the most toys wins" mentality. My friends and I enjoy sharing the music we find with each other.

I dont think file sharing is such a bad thing. It gets the music to the true fans who want to hear it. We do not judge princes musical abilities on his bootlegs. We all know he rocks. And if prince is woried about losing money because we shared his unreleased music all he has to do is release it! The released versions have a cleaner sound and every one of his fans would buy it. Now I'm not into sharing released albums, i think that is just wrong but if I cant buy it anywhere then what is the harm? I mean, no one is making money off of it or anything.

Great post Metal my sentiments exactly.

If Prince or Wb released those titles.. bootleggers would go out of business. How many SOTT bootlegs do you see circulating now?

sosgemini said:

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Maybe he is not trying to compete with his past. 1984 is gone and I think P is aware of this too bad some fans are not. Did you every think he just does not care for the stuff that has not be released? Did you ever think that some it may be too personal.

laurarichardson said:

oh boy....why is it your brain automatically clicks to the 84 timeperiod huh? soo bitter you are.....

im talking about his entire career here...not just 84.....too personal? ive heard a lot of this stuff and it is *not*...but im not here to argue with you....

i stand by my statements...feel free to contribute your own views without getting combative with me (or others)..its not that hard of a thing to do..

sosgemini said:

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Anytime anyone is critical of anything you have to say they are being "combative". I think you need to get a harder skin and learn that everyone does not have to agree with you.

I don't care if you don't mean 1984. No artist can live in the past and sit around worrying about what the did in the past. The best thing to do is to move on a live in the present day.

Some of those outakes are personal. "Wally" "Tall Wall" The orignal Old Friends For Sale and Empty Room. Just a few examples of songs he may not want the public to hear.

Stop assuming you got the inside scoop on why everything P has recorded has not been released. You don't and I don't it is all open to speculation.

In addtion anyone can go to New Power Radio and hear this stuff. Nothing is really being held back from the fans.

laurarichardson said:

and thats the wonder of this forum...people are free to pontificate on whatever the hell they want....

without trolls huffing and puffing because people dont share their *exact* views.....

hmm. i started getting bootlegs just a couple of years ago, through friends' cd-rs and, mostly, internet. i have only bought couple of originals, and i dont really see any point in paying for bootleg.

it must be really strange for people who started collecting bootlegs before internet.
tell me, does it matter to you wheter you own some excellent bootleg as original copy or as 'just' mp3s or cd-r?

naturally i want to have all the official prince releases as original cds, but for me there is no importance in owning an original bootleg.

i buy more music now than ever before. I know more artists, i appreciate more styles, this is all thanks to being able to find music on the internet for free. I love the search for music on the internet i never pay for downloads. The only exception is from NPGMC when the album isn't released on CD. If i like an album i go buy it, i hear more music through the internet, and therefore i buy more music.

i think i'm missing the point but i just wanted to post what what was in my head!

prinssi said:

The vast majority of my bootleg collection is on factory pressed CDs. I like the fact that I have the artwork, booklets, picture disc Cds etc. Also they are only pressed in small runs 1000 or so copys so to me they are raritys.

I don't trade much although if I had access to a CD burner I certainly would

I appreciate that a lot of folks out there are happy with their MP3 sourced copys but having a finished product whether it's 'official' or not does it for me!

Started with cd-rs, (Back in the days when I paid for them ) but some of the factory pressed discs are fantastically great. People who say "Oh you're just stealing" plain miss out on alot of music which is far superior to any recent output. I won't pay exorbitant prices, but am happy to pay the same for a double pressed boot as I would for a normal 2 disc set. There's more than enough info floating on the net to inform yourself what is worthy and what is not.

Ive also been givin some great jams i cant buy, from ppl here .. My ears and body thank u.

Prince and his music puts my mind N another place. It allows me to happily explore place ideas in my mind that I may not have gone without it. Sometimes his bootlegs R moore uplifting than his released cuts. When they hit the stores, I still buy them. P could put out an album every month and I would buy it.

metalorange said:

Not exactly...
Most collectors and tapers hold on to their "uncirculating"/rare stuff because they know once it gets out bootleggers will grab it and try to profit from it, which is not tolerable...
When (if) bootleggers disappear (which they won't because there are still too many idiots pumping money in their scam of tagging and rehashing) then see how much "uncirculating"/rare stuff will finally get out, it's not because of selfishness (at least not all of it...) it's about bootleggers profiting from something they don't have the right to profit off...
The day bootleggers just fuck off is the day everyone will hear more music... Ironic but that's the way it is for most collectors and tapers...

Neversin.

Neversin said:

Say a collector's got a uniquely rare bootleg. Where did he get it? Either he got it from a bootlegger or he is a bootlegger. If he got it from a bootlegger, then the bootlegger would keep a copy and be selling it himself - so other people would have it and it wouldn't be rare anymore. If he is a bootlegger - same thing, he would be selling it. Either way it would get out to the public.

Besides, if a collector did have a rare bootleg and didn't want bootlegging operations to grab it but would be happy for fans to have it for free - well,there never will be a better mechanism for bypassing bootleggers than the internet. As well, it would be a bit 2-faced. Such a collector's collection would only exist because of the bootlegger market and no doubt would have happily bought most of their collection pre-internet from bootleggers already, so to turn around and be indignant about them making money off it would be like biting the hand that feeds you. Or once fed you.

There's no doubt that bootleggers have provided a valuable service in the past to Prince music collectors!

But my reasoning would still lead me to conclude that pretty much everything that is out there is circulating, though of course some stuff is rarer than others.

metalorange said:

That's a rather simple reasoning...
Most stuff that were released by bootleggers to the public came from collectors looking for a profit -> bootleggers/taggers...

Collectors who have "uncirculating"/rare material didn't get them from bootleggers/taggers and would never sell to or buy from some bootlegger/tagger... They know better... Most of that material came from engineers, mixers, Prince leaving dubbed copies at certain studio's, Prince/bandmembers giving tapes to one night stands or boy/girlfriends, (ex) bandmembers, tapers, tape TRADERS etc. -> sharing, no monetary exchange...


And this is exactly what collectors with "uncirculating"/rare material don't need: strangers profiting off something that they have no business getting money from anyway...


Bootleggers also have access to the Internet...
Tape/CD-R trading is still alive among collectors who don't want it to end up into the hands of bootleggers; this would only become obsolete if bootleggers disappeared which, sadly for the public, will never happen...


See my previous statements above...


Sure, but how much of that material is tagged or incomplete or "watered down" to ensure a possible profitable future (re)release...

Neversin.

i agree most of the stuff is pretty well circulated, but theres a vast amount of audio/video material to collect if you want everything thats out there since 1978!
Although if you want to find it enough you will.

The way ive always looked at bootleggers is.
In the early days if that one person hadnt the foresight to make a live tape recording of some up and coming funkpunk in a small club in Detroit or wherever, then this early Prince footage would be lost for ever, an absolute tragedy.

AND IF I EVER MET SUCH A PERSON I,D HAPPILY BUY THEM A BEER.

I've been collecting unreleased music since 87. I've paid stupid money for items that were valuable to me. They made me happy most of the time and I've rarely regretted it. The only thing that's bothered me is when songs are misrepresented or mis labeled on purpose.

I like to eat bootlegs for dessert

sosgemini said:

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Yes, continue on with your nosense raving. (LOL)