oneradyear said:[quote]Tupac and Biggie weren't really pioneers of rap music, but they did take it to a whole new level. In my opinion, 50 Cent is just a copycat product. I find 50 very entertaining and could listen to his album 5 times in a row over listening to Pink Floyd. But there is something appealing in that, talent or no talent.

Tupac may not have have as much musical talent as he had charisma. He could be frighteningly in-your-face and that was part of his appeal. Also he was a leader.

Also, look at Bob George. Sure, Prince probably wrote that in 5 seconds. Not much "talent" behind it but I bet the haters of that song probably listen to it hundreds of times because it is ENTERTAINING.

There is a difference between ENTERTAINMENT and MUSICAL TALENT. There is nothing wrong with either, and many times they intertwine. In fact, Prince interwines both and that is what makes him rise above artists that are only good at one or the other.

All those girls screaming for Elvis and the Beatles when they were on Ed Sullivan weren't screaming for their musical talent. (though they did have that!)... They were screaming because Elvis could shake his crotch and the Beatles had hair cuts that looked like beetles. ENTERTAINMENT.

Strippers have no talent, but we like them because they are good ENTERTAINERS.


You make a good point, however I think the issue isn't whether 2Pac was entertaining and untalented, I accept that to his fans he was entertaining as is the stripper you mention or any other person seeking an audience. My point is that 2Pac seems to be paraded as a voice of a generation and yet, unlike the Beatles, Marvin Gaye, Bowie, Lou Reed, Bob Dylan, Stevie Wonder, Morrisey et al, he doesn't have a discernable message, and yes I have listened to his material and no I'm not white (not that colour has anything to do with appreciation of art). Being from the UK and having grown up in the immediate post Beales era, I can say that they had two careers, the one where the girls screemed at them for being good looking lads who made great tunes and then after 1966 whne they retired from touring and became the most influential artists of modern times bar none!. Modern music wouldn't be in existence without the Beatles. And if you want to talk about the roots of mixing sounds, and creating beats then I can recommend you listen to Strawberry Fields and The White Album.One more thing, you cannot be serious about mentioning insipid 50Cent in the same sentence as Prog Rock masters Floyd!!

clarityman said:

It's understandable, I didn't get all the pac cult of personality either, until I did a little reading, from there I watched Tupac Ressurection which I would highly recommend. I never was a big fan of rap but Tupac is one of the few who created what respect I do have for it. Tupac was a genius, a young genius, a social scientist, someone who the powers that be are very fortunate did not get a chance to mature to where he could have really been a threat. Anyway, in Resurrection he speaks admiringly of Prince and states he wish they could "hang".

clarityman said:

Actually, I have listened to the Beatles (not very extensively) and Tupac (more extensively) and I would go as far to say that Tupac's music DID have a message. At least an overall message, moreso than the Beatles did. Tupac's message was one of being an underdog, the struggle being black and from the streets, and the wonderful time he had here in Baltimore on Greenmount Ave..... The Beatles songs' messages were pretty much all over the place (and even some songs made no lyrical sense at all: Strawberry Fields Forever. Even though this was a great song)

Pink Floyd vs 50 Cent - Floyd would probably win in musical skill. But I have never REALLY listened to them. I forced myself to listen to them once because everyone was saying "YOU'VE NEVER LISTENED TO PINK FLOYD??? WHAT ARE YOU, SOME KIND OF UNAMERICAN, HOOLA-HOOP-EYED, JIVE TURKEY?" And I have to say I am more comfortable driving around listening to 50 Cent. Pink Floyd sounds good, but they take more intelligence and patience to listen to. Sometimes I just don't have time for all that and want to NOT think, hence the 4/4 beat of 50's music.

I am talking a lot of trash, no?

Tim Kaye
www.timkaye.com
www.cdbaby.com/timkaye2
www.myspace.com/timkaye
[Edited 6/12/05 21:48pm]

Oh one other thing that is cool about all those old bands like the Beatles and Pink Floyd for me personally...

I have never listened to them! I had never ever heard Led Zepplin until a couple months ago. What happened was I grew up listening to Prince, Bobby Brown, MC Hammer, Johnny Gill, Public Enemy, The Monkees and Huey Lewis.

That sound generic, but it's kinda cool. Because I think music coming out on commercial radio these days is just pure shite. So, what I do, if I want to hear some good new music... I'll go out and by a Beatles album - It's all new music to me and guaranteed to be good!

oneradyear said:

No you're not talking trash at all, I think what we can see from this interesting debate is that in the end its about personal taste and the stage of life/mood you're in. As a music freak I will certainly look a little deeper into 2Pac's work and thank you for the steer.

Just to say though that the Beatles had some groundbreaking messages, particullarly from Rubber Soul on. They challenged our perceptions of what a "popular" band could say while risking their profile, even the crazy stuff gave an amazing insight into the minds of what I would say were the greatest musical act ever. John Lennon shifted mass opinion on the way we could express out questions of love and peace in the modern world.

Pink Floyd are an acquired taste for sure, and its probably that you're just not into that style, which is cool

[/quote]
Pink Floyd sounds good, but they take more intelligence and patience to listen to. Sometimes I just don't have time for all that and want to NOT think, hence the 4/4 beat of 50's music.

I am talking a lot of trash, no?

Tim Kaye
www.timkaye.com
www.cdbaby.com/timkaye2
www.myspace.com/timkaye
[Edited 6/12/05 21:48pm]
[/quote]



Yikes!! Pink Floyd uses more of your intelligence than 50 Cent!! You better be careful with your words.

wow I never notice 2Pac sampling Prince