Hotlegs said:

Okay...I'm going to say this for the last time because people have had a lot of Purple KoolAid on this site....Controversy was an R&B/Funk album,yes!!!!Dirty Mind was more new wave-rock than R&B...but that's not even part of the discussion...I don't need a review to understand that....I was talking about getting play on MTV...When Dirty Mind came out THERE WAS NO MTV....Controversy came out at the same time MTV came out...But as soon as Prince went with an even harder guitar rock sound, he got some airplay...And there is nothing wrong with that because our boy was been very ambitious...However, there is something wrong with MTV shitting on all of those R&B/FUNK artists...

Don't know how many folks in Prince Music and More are really aware of Rick and P, because it goes far back. And it appears that many just started getting into P in the late 80's, at the very earliest. But for all of the o.g. P fans that were actually into P before "When Doves Cry", this fued was double sided. Sure, there is no doubt that Rick was jealous of P. Rick later admitted this. But, at the time when P was opening up for Rick, Rick was definately the bigger star. And even in 81 when P released Controversy, Rick was at the top with his huge hit album "Streetsongs". Rick's popularity put heat on Prince to get it up, so to speak. Overall, it was just competition more than anything. Rick had his world as P was building his own. Period. Sure, Rick was the first to openly talk about P in the press, but that was just fanning the flames. Rick knew P was on the rise, so,...They both admired and respected each other as artists, if not as people.

MTV today, is still just as racist as they were back then. They are just hiding it better now. Back in the day, they refused to play funk artists or any artist that was too "black" because their music didn't fit in with MTV's pop/rock format. I can understand that arguement because I don't want to hear rock when I'm listening to funk and I also don't want to hear funk when I'm listening to rock. Mixing the two brings me down off the mood I'm feeling at the time.

However, I do find it very strange that when white kids started listening to rap and hip hop, MTV had absolutely no problem playing these videos. Rap and hip hop was also the furthest thing from MTV's pop/rock format at the time, just the same as funk was a few years earlier. It looks to me that MTV was not interested at all in following a certain format and strictly interested in keeping their white viewers happy.

Nowadays, the few times when MTV actually does play videos, they are almost dominated by rap and hip hop. This isn't because MTV has had a change of heart, this is because it is what is selling and white kids are the ones that made rap and hip hop the huge success that it became. If and when white kids ever lose interest in rap and hip hop, so will MTV. Also, if another form of black music emerges afterwards and white kids aren't into it, MTV will not play it, just like the old days.

A closet racist is much more dangerous than an open one.
[Edited 5/28/05 8:28am]

ludika said:

There is far more to black music beside 50 Cent & G-Unit!

There is far more to rap music beside gangsta rap!

And unless you're like OutKast or The Black Eye Peas changing your sound all in the name of crossing over, you're still struggling.

And please don't get me started about these white-owned communication companies that are buying out most Black FM Radio stations to only play the same bullshit that you hear on the radio at this moment.

Musical racism is alive and well. Quote me on this!

I might not agree with Vainandy's choice of words. But I can understand the arguement very well because The Real True Hip-Hop Culture is being push to the side just like The Funk Culture.

Think about it.
[Edited 5/28/05 15:58pm]

First and foremost I wish to say this is an excellent thread!!!!

Let me clarify some things based on my memory -

I - The Feud
The feud between Prince and Rick James started during their tour. Prince - Pushing sex while Rick James pushing chronic. At that time period for someone to perform in the manner or fashion of Prince - in the black community would be considered - A FAGGOT big time. And if such a performer was drawing a bigger attention than the headliner of the concert that was like DEATH, (anyone recall what Prince did with the Time when they were getting the bigger response?). They even had food fights in which Prince would throw food at the Rick James group during their performance.

II - Prince pulling Denise Matthews ,(Vanity)
Well as the story goes, according to Bobby Z and Dez Dickerson, first this chick was hangin with Rick James on his tour bus then she started appearing on the Prince tour Bus. The song Super Freak is suppose to be about her -"...She likes the boys in da band...She says I'm her all time favorite." (Also Irresistible Bitch is about Vanity as well - it was release during the time she skipped out on Purple Rain
And she had a knack for sleeping people when she got high,

"All my partners ask me why I take so much abuse
Why am I so faithful, honey? Why are U so loose?
They say why am I the one who never gets 2 take U home?
But they don't know the things U do 2 me when we're alone"

III - MTV
The reason they played Prince Video's was because Prince was on Warner Brothers WEA, (Eddy Grant was also a WEA Artist via Sire and his songs were marketed as a pop release) WEA at the time owned MTV - And Prince was going to be their flag ship of crossover* - Michael Jackson was played because CBS records threaten to pull videos of all their CBS related artist. They, (MTV) weren't going to play Beat It because the 2 minute opening segment of the bar when the people walk in. Their argument was MTV means music and the video needs to be 100% music w/o any type of gaps. Reality - it was a black artist and MTV president was denying Black Artist the opportunity. Unfortunately Rick James was absolutely right but because he and Motown lacked the clout that WEA and CBS had the only thing they, (James & Motown) do was vent.

*NOTE: They were marketing Prince for his film Purple Rain which was just an idea and some notesat the time, check this out and this is my theory:

Prince's first CD then called albums was Prince for you - it flopped big time so he needed to release a top 40 LP (basically an LP that generated revenue) he hires the new management of Cavallo, Ruffalo & Fargnoli -

In marketing if you have a bad presentation of a product but the product is good...you repackage the product.
Take a look at all of the CD's Prince released from For You (1978) to 1999 (1982) After For You all of his CD's do not have the title on the front. it is located on the back. His self-titled second CD no title trying to create the illusion that this was his first CD and everyone since then would be perceived as his first CD - until you get to 1999 (which was released in 1982) because the focus was crossover there is no picture of Prince (BLACK ARTIST). Just the name and title. His Video's at this point were more stylish but toned down meaning the leg warmers and underwear are gone. Incidentally - people praised 1999 as being a great double album, which it is. but note - he has only 10 songs which was roughly a standard count for a single LP release - a double would have had at least 16 songs - What we have here was Prince not editing himself. After he gets the media attention for 1999 then a year goes by in which the Prince Camp worked on Purple Rain the Movie - and in 1984 he releases Purple Rain his first LP since For You in which his name, title of the LP and his picture all appear on the cover. Purple Rain

IV The Girl Groups
Rick James had the idea first and was planning to use Denise Matthews, (Vanity).
When Vanity was hanging with Prince she mentioned this idea casually not like "Hey Prince Rick is going to do a girl group what do u think?" So Prince being the ass he is sometimes knowing that this would piss Rick James off even more rush and put Vanity 6 together. Note - Prince didn't have auditions for this idea he just threw together the people his line of sight hence Brenda Bennett being a member (she is the wife of Prince's Stage and Light Designer Roy Bennett) and Susan Moosie was already hanging on the tour bus because she too was dating Prince. So putting her there kinda shut her up. Keep in mind they are all young and for someone to say "Hey you're gonna be a big star people forget their issues - (temporary at least). In addition one of Prince's favorite movies was The Idol Maker by Taylor Hackfield (Director for the Oscar winning film Ray about Ray Charles). This film a guy basically takes anyone and makes them a star. As for Andre Cymone, (real name Andre Simon Andersen). He is still in touch with members of the band and hears this and rushes to do his Girl group (It wasn't very good or ok). Note: Prince did have a tendency to "borrow" from members of his band i.e. Cymone hence why Cymone left the group.

Ironically Rick James was fired/quit Motown and where did he go...Warner Brothers!! He released one CD called Wonderful on Warner Brothers. If you ever get a chance to see it take a look at what he is wearing - bright red leather outfit with a bolero type jacket and...GET THIS - a ruffled shirt. And he also is wearing a flora outfit as well looking like a member of Mazarati.

Final statement - the most ironically thing is the same year Universal released a film starring their "white" singer turned actor This was going to be the hit of the summer!!! Can you guess who? Rick Srpingfiled Too Hard To HOld.

When Doves Cry 2000 has replied verbosely and honestly his knowledge so that we may all understand...
[Edited 5/28/05 19:35pm]

whendovescry2000 said:

CORRECTION: Rick James was never fired from Motown. He never quit Motown neither. Right after the release of The Flag, Rick was a free agent.

Other than that, very good essay!!!

murph said:

You know what if you're not w/the program. Man, I can't help b/c your to caught up in MTV labeling bullshit. You talk about the Kool Aid well I see you've been drinking alot of it spiked from MTV.

For all those that know me, they know I speak from a view of a musician/music lover whereas yours is is purely from that of a fan. You've made it clear what your stance is by getting caught up in all the propaganda the media has fed you about labeling Black Artists and suit yourself b/c when you assume you make an ass out your self. That's my final on the matter regarding your situation. Some people never learn.

Legs
[Edited 5/28/05 16:20pm]


Dude....First of all I'm speaking from the way PRINCE'S LABEL promoted him...This is nothing new dog...It ain't propaganda...Prince started to wail on his ax because he was inspired to do so, but this helped the man seperate himself from just being a normal R&B/FUNK cat...that didn't come from me...That's history...I never called you an ass, so let's not bring that into it...I think you are looking through rose colored glasses dog...It's the music BUSINESS for a reason...Secondly...I'm a grown ass 34 year OLD man who hasn't checked out MTV since Yo MTV Raps went off the air...Again...i'm talking ABOUT THE '80S...THE AGE OF THE CROSS-OVER NEGRO...and P was a huge part of that...And he got burn on MTV because of his guitar driven, rock synth sound, the freshness of his music, his non-threatening look, his sick ass ambition and because he had a powerful label that was connected to MTV...And he wasn't playing funk (As in Cameo, Rick James, early MidNight Starr ect...) That's what The Time were for...He was influenced by the funk on the 1999 album, but that wasn't his total bag...They (his label, the press ect...) were calling Prince a rocker...All this to say that his rock oriented sound aided him in becoming an early MTV staple....Thanks for the support dog...It's all love..But being a musician doesn't mean anything to me...Everybody on this site has something to say that can be respected....

TonyVanDam said:

Thank You Tony for Getting The Facts Straight Before Ms Legs Intervened.

Hotlegs said:

Hotlegs said:

Fired/quit/free agent - the point I was making is that he, (Rick James), was now with Warner Brothers, (Prince's former record label),I was not questioning any previous releases prior to Rick James's release of "Wonderful" on Warner Brothers or any following releases. SO no facts were "crooked" Ms. Legs

Thank you for reading

When Doves Cry 2000 has address the odd with the even. Welcome to MY Crystal Ball!!!!

murph said:

First of all, you need to get you fucking facts straight b/c I am not a dude and I'm a lady. Secondly, you can the Warner Brothers bullshit b/c everybody knows the damn story. Perhaps,in time, you will get you shit together, I haven't given up hope on ya b/c afterall like you say it's all love.

Legs

Hotlegs said:

Fired/quit/free agent - the point I was making is that he, (Rick James), was now with Warner Brothers, (Prince's former record label),I was not questioning any previous releases prior to Rick James's release of "Wonderful" on Warner Brothers or any following releases. SO no facts were "crooked" Ms. Legs

Thank you for reading

When Doves Cry 2000 has address the odd with the even. Welcome to MY Crystal Ball!!!!

whendovescry2000 said:

I did say that you type a very good essay.

It would have been perfect if the timelines were correct to begin with.

Here in Prince.Org, correct timelines in music history is everything.

Think about it.

Hotlegs said:

damn... tellem legs....

whendovescry2000 said:

I did say that you type a very good essay.

It would have been perfect if the timelines were correct to begin with.

Here in Prince.Org, correct timelines in music history is everything.

Think about it.

whendovescry2000 said:

I did say that you type a very good essay.

It would have been perfect if the timelines were correct to begin with.



Here in Prince.Org, correct timelines in music history is everything.



Think about it.

TonyVanDam said:

I agree with you Tony. It's unfortunate that Whendoves couldn't be satisfied with both of us giving comments on the essay. I'm glad that you took the time to point out some the slight errors in the essay.

murph said:

Well because his handlers and his label and Prince himself was touting our boy as an rock and roll artist...Remember I'm saying all this to say this is one of the reasons he was accepted on MTV and hardcore FUNK artists were not). We all know Maggot Brain (Parliment) and Hendrix (towards the end of his career with "Machine Gun") meshed funk and rock...But come on???? Litle Red Corvette was a Rock track, 1999 was a rock/pop with a hint of funk, but more rock than anything else, and Delirious was rockabilly....It was the sound that Prince would eventually push on Purple Rain..In music reviews critics referred to Prince as a rocker...He didn't heavy into the funk until the Parade Hit & Run tour.

ludika said:

There is far more to black music beside 50 Cent & G-Unit!

There is far more to rap music beside gangsta rap!

And unless you're like OutKast or The Black Eye Peas changing your sound all in the name of crossing over, you're still struggling.

And please don't get me started about these white-owned communication companies that are buying out most Black FM Radio stations to only play the same bullshit that you hear on the radio at this moment.

Musical racism is alive and well. Quote me on this!

I might not agree with Vainandy's choice of words. But I can understand the arguement very well because The Real True Hip-Hop Culture is being push to the side just like The Funk Culture.

Think about it.
[Edited 5/28/05 15:58pm]

ludika said:

Vainandy, I always enjoy reading your posts but the above post is simply ridiculous. Yes, MTV does play whatever sells best (isn't that kinda logical anyway?) BUT I don't think they care who it sells to. At least not anymore. I mean come on, 70% of all videos on MTV are by black artists and you still find a way to somehow connect it with racism. No offence but that way of thinking is what keeps the racism alive.

ludika said:

blackguitaristz said:

Ditto....Another thing that must be noted is that Rick resented (and rightly so) how Prince, the light skinned, rock playing, crossover negro received major play on MTV while the more hardcore R&B cat Rick James was barred from the station. There was a huge outcry at one point in '82 in which black artists complained nationally that they were being descriminated by MTV. So along comes Prince, a guy that was just opening up for Rick just two years earlier, getting major airplay with Little Red Corvette as well as the non threatening MJ...That's why he disliked Prince...It wasn't simple jealousy...But in recent years, Rick James has come to respect our boy P...He was even quoted as saying that Prince truely represented the FUNK....But by simply saying it's jealously is doing a disservice to Rick's legacy....
[Edited 5/25/05 18:48pm]

Thumparello said:

Then Prince was heating up and broke loose with some serious innovative funk (1999)ater his tour with Rick. Broke loose with the Time and Vanity 6 ala Parliament, Bootsy's Rubberband and the Brides.

Prince's funk was more innovative and ahead of his time where Rick sounded more like a P-Funk clone Prince , at that time, was more original and his concept was better, shock treatment. Rick was jealous!

Hotlegs said:

Okay...I'm going to say this for the last time because people have had a lot of Purple KoolAid on this site....Controversy was an R&B/Funk album,yes!!!!Dirty Mind was more new wave-rock than R&B...but that's not even part of the discussion...I don't need a review to understand that....I was talking about getting play on MTV...When Dirty Mind came out THERE WAS NO MTV....Controversy came out at the same time MTV came out...But as soon as Prince went with an even harder guitar rock sound, he got some airplay...And there is nothing wrong with that because our boy was been very ambitious...However, there is something wrong with MTV shitting on all of those R&B/FUNK artists...

prodigalfan said:

I mostly agree with your statement except this.... Ms. Legs do NOT drkin the Purle Koolaid. That label is for people who thinks Prince can do no wrong, is the only one who makes worthy music. It is a clever and catchy label, but please don't misuse it. :nono2:

preciosa863 said:

So he was jealous at MTV??? That doesn't make sense...But it does make sense for him to be jealous of Prince (which I believe you meant)....But it's all love...

It's very obvious that Prince had rock tracks since day one such as "I'm Yours", "Bambi", Jack U Off", etc. But Prince had just as many funk tracks, if not more since the very beginning....."Soft and Wet", "I Wanna Be Your Lover" (disco/funk), "Sexy Dancer", "Head", "Partyup", "Controversy", "Let's Work".....all these are pure funk. R&B radio was pumping these Prince tracks, as well as some of the rock type tracks, big time in those days. With the exception of "I Wanna Be Your Lover", pop radio had never heard of Prince. Prince had always come hard plenty of funk from day one.

As far as the rock/new wave in the music, in the early 1980s, many of the funk groups were bringing it into their music. Rick James had "Super Freak", The Barkays had "Freaky Behaviour", Cameo had "Alligator Woman". By the time 1982 had arrived, it was so common that a group called Warp 9 even made a song about it called "Nunk (New Wave Funk)". That word definately describes funk music the best during that era. Prince definately had a style of his own that set him apart from the rest, but he wasn't the only funk artist bringing these elements in his music.

As far as Prince being labeled a rocker by the press, I could be wrong because it's been over 20 years, but I don't remember it in the old "Right On" and "Rock and Soul" days. These two magazines were THE source of info on Prince, as well as other R&B artists back in the day. They used to talk about Prince being an amazing artist that could play all his instruments, had a racially mixed band, and also brought elements of rock into his music. I don't remember these magazines referring to Prince as a rocker....yet. The first time I ever saw him labeled as a rocker was when magazines like "Rolling Stone" started getting hip to Prince. Then I started seeing Prince labeled as a rocker in all the magazines, including "Right On" and "Rock and Soul".