Prince shows a very good knowledge of harmony on this one, why it seems he does not come close to the harmony of this song on his lastest jazzy efforts?

7salles said:

I agree that this is one of the few cases where Prince actually uses what you might call traditional/bebop jazz harmony, such as II-V-I progressions in different keys. I can't think of any other song right now that utilizes this in such an obvious way. "Damn U" has some of it, I guess, and also "So blue" from his first album - but I agree that "Do U lie" stands out.

Why? I don't know...

Do U Lie is a wonderful and completely underrated song. It stands the test of time unlike so many other tracks on Parade. I love this song.

Someone please hip me to this song "Jazz." What year and what's it on?

THe song is "do you lie"

It sucks

7salles said:

My mistake. I thought the question was "do you like JAZZ" and you just forgot the put in the K.
If he could only put that style of vocals with his current jazzy stuff.

It's corny as hell. It reminds me of Lawrence Welk. Every time I hear it, I picture bubbles in my mind.

well if bubbles is all you can think when you hear the song, it tells more about you than about it.

Anyone without half of a brain could think about the rich harmony, pretty vocal melodies, or interesting jazzy arrangments.

scififilmnerd said:

7salles said:

I completely agree, anyone that does not appreciate this song has very limited taste in music. I had a convo with a fellow Prince appreciatior about this song a few weeks ago and we were discussing its brilliance. Do U Lie is one of the more underrated songs in Prince's catalog. Yet, its one of the many "album tracks" that illustrate his genius. Jonathan Melvoin's drumming is superb and Prince's vocals are outstanding. The background vocal layering/phrasing and the bassline are all very good as well. How many musicians have the balls to juxtapose an accordian driven lush orchestrated track with Mountains and Kiss? I don't think most people actually "listen" to that song because if they did they would be blown away by the musicianship, vocals and more importantly by the ground they cover in three mins. Then again most of Prince's more obscure/adventurous material is not appreciated.
[Edited 5/1/05 20:16pm]

Dude, Ravel it ain't.

DorothyParkerWasCool said:

I sometimes like jazzy influences in music, but on the other hand most jazz to me sounds to soulless, intellectual, smart..... I mean: showing how good you are at improvising, or technical skills have NOTHING to do with good music...

When it comes to me, on the rainbow children (i never listened to NEWS) is using jazz-influences, but they sound detached, not in key what he REALLY wants to express.....escapism into lame jazz-funk-rock-fusion....

Good music for me is artists touching me on a deeper level, moving me, letting themselves shine trough and out of that vulnerability showing that you can on a deeper level 'connect' with them..... The Rainbow Children is one of the most detached Prince-recordings when it comes to that, it gives you no personal freedom to relate to the lyrics and most of the music....That kind of things happen when someone is obsessed instead of openminded.....

just brainstorming....

Vainandy, why you are still here? you only love funkmusic up to 1982?

Since then are there any artists (black, white, green, yellow) that touched your heart?

Riverpoet31 said:

As a jazz lover I have to strongly disagree. Improvisation and techinical proficiency have a great deal to do with it, however, the passion and the feeling an individual expresses with their instrument tells you as much or even more about a person. Moreover, the way they use space in their music lets you delve deeper into the musicians soul. Miles Davis was a prime example of this. Davis is not considered one of the greatest trumpeters because of his technical prowess or imporvisational skills because there were many Jazz trumpeters that were better at both. Davis is appreciated because of the vulnerability in his trumpeting. You can feel his emotion by the way he phrases certain notes or they way he approaches a solo. Jazz is actually one of the few musical artforms where you can truly FEEL what the performer is going through. Especially when its done the right way. John Coltrane's A Love Supreme is about spiritual rebirth/growth and you can feel it with every note he plays.

[Edited 5/2/05 11:51am]

DorothyParker, i understand what you try to say, but enjoying music remains a personal music....

I mean:
- I can listen to a very simple song as Start Again by Teenage Fanclub, and it touches me more then some jazz-song, because the melody is right on spot, the harmonies are soothing, the repetiveness of the rhythem is a personal affirmation
- I can listen to a country-ballad, sentimental sounding on the surface maybe, but maybe i am longing for that kind of simple soothing at that moment, and i find a certain pureness, directness in it i can deeply relate to.
- I really love Miles Davis phrasing on records like Tutu and Aura, not considered to be classic jazz-records, the music isnt that splendid even, but when one phrase of Davis touches me DEEP, thats enough
- When i listen to artists like Matthew Sweet and Ken Stringfellow creating a 'perfect popsong' i enjoy those kind of debth and understanding of music
- Sorry, jazz is not exactly my kind of thing, but i find so much richness and depth in other kinds of music, i can find rebirth in a traditional folk song, a powerpop gem, a country ballad....

Correction: I like almost all of Prince's music from the beginning to the present. My "favorite" Prince music is from the beginning through 1984. Most all Prince music after that, I consider good but not great like before. I have my "preferences" the same as you.

The good thing about this site over some of the other sites is that criticism is allowed. You sound like one of those people that holler "America, love it or leave it". Now if I'm not the "fam" I should be, well I'm sorry and if you would take the time to check the "Non-Prince" section, you would see I love tons of other artists.
[Edited 5/3/05 0:58am]

Parade is my favorite, and this song is no exception.

Riverpoet31 said:[quote]I sometimes like jazzy influences in music, but on the other hand most jazz to me sounds to soulless, intellectual, smart..... I mean: showing how good you are at improvising, or technical skills have NOTHING to do with good music...

quote]

Riverpoet, I'm not saying you should like jazz, but please don't make ignorant comments like that. It's very insulting. That's like saying that because Prince is proficient on so many instruments, then he must be soulless and too intellectual. Seriously, it's just as ignorant.

I still defend that view: music is about SOUL, I love to listen to music that touches me, whether its funk, country, powerpop, cuban music, jazz or cuban music....

vainandy said:

Vainandy is cool.

7salles said:

I totally agree with u on that one 7salles. It's a beautiful song and I rate it up there with the rest of his classic songs. The music is absolutely beautiful along with the voice

Thank you.

Riverpoet31 said:

DorothyParkerWasCool said:

I promised myself I wouldn't get into this discussion, but...

I don't think jazz has to do with technical proficiency at all. At least not jazz specifically - you need technique to play any kind of music!

Being good jazz musician doesn't automatically mean that you can also play rock, country or whatever, since that's supposedly "easier" - it's not!

The reason jazz music might be harder to get into, is mainly because most people today are not exposed to jazz the same way they're exposed to pop and rock - therefore, most of us have to study more to learn about it. It's not that the music is more difficult in itself! An 80-year-old who has grown up with jazz music would probably find it equally hard to play, for instance, a Metallica song.

Yeah, techinically, it's more easy to play Stella by Stralight, then Sweet Child O mine for example. But that said, you have to own a better musical knowledge to play the former. The fact is that most rock and pop musicans have very little harmony knowledge so they get lost when they see chords like Em7b5 and A7b9. But when you have a good harmony knowledge you can play that song very easily. There are lots of heavy metal and hard songs pretty hard to play, like MrBig, Dream Theater and Symphony X, as a matter of fact, more difficult than most of jazz songs, but JAZZ, in some cases, are very hard to play too PLUS it is harmonically much more sofisticated.

I used have a musician friend that loved the tech side of music. It either hits or it doesn't. This song always transported me to the south side of France, lamenting a girl messin' round with my heart. And I've never been to France.
I bought a Beatles tab book and there some bitchin' chords I had to dumb down.
Parade and The Family album are very nice period piece that not many talk about.

As for Jazz or not? It's beautiful.

Rev said:

I'm totally all about those albums.

Riverpoet31 said:

I share that view. You're absolutely right when you say that. But it was your original post that burned me up. You were saying that the basic goal of jazz musicians was to show off, which is so far from the truth.

I would like to see Prince do some real jazz stuff, like a project where he should only do (vocal) songs by Gershwin, Rodgers/Hammerstein or Cole Porter. Or what about a project of Prince doing the Blue Note song book!
Maybe this could also offer new horizons to Prince in terms of compositional possibilities for his own music.

As far as Prince's 'jazz' outings up till now, I think it is nice music, but it is lacking the real feeling of freedom associated with a great jazz-performance. Maybe Prince is just too much of a control freak to make jazz.....he should be working with musicians that could teach him something, like Herbie, Jim Hall, Christain McBride, Joshua Redman


jazzz

I completely agree, anyone that does not appreciate this song has very limited taste in music. I had a convo with a fellow Prince appreciatior about this song a few weeks ago and we were discussing its brilliance. Do U Lie is one of the more underrated songs in Prince's catalog. Yet, its one of the many "album tracks" that illustrate his genius. Jonathan Melvoin's drumming is superb and Prince's vocals are outstanding. The background vocal layering/phrasing and the bassline are all very good as well. How many musicians have the balls to juxtapose an accordian driven lush orchestrated track with Mountains and Kiss? I don't think most people actually "listen" to that song because if they did they would be blown away by the musicianship, vocals and more importantly by the ground they cover in three mins. Then again most of Prince's more obscure/adventurous material is not appreciated.
[Edited 5/1/05 20:16pm]
[/quote]

I like this song and you´re argumentation is o.k. - but with "anyone that does not appreciate this song has very limited taste in music" you lose it.
Maybe you can evaluate the handicraft and the creativity but not the taste.