I've spoken at length about my interp of the lyrics on TRC, so I won't bore y'all with that again.

One thing I will repeat is my opinion that the lyrics to TRC are some of the strangest, obtuse ones of his career. To try to say with any kind of conviction that you KNOW what Prince was trying to say on some of these tracks is just foolish. They are open to interpretation probably more than any other album (with the possible exception of Lovesexy). Hell, the whole thing reads more like some sci-fi epic than it does a religious diatribe. Prince is myth making like he does on MOST of his albums, so its going to be viewed differently than most of his stuff. I really think that the average person, not knowing Prince is a JW, would probably find this the equivilant of watching David Lynch's adaptation of Dune without having read the novel: "well, that sure was neat, but I have no idea what its about".

DorothyParkerWasCool said:

I do agree that human tragedies; i.e. genocide, ethnic cleansing and slavery shouldn't be ranked. But in all honesty the Holocaust is looked upon as the worst thing that ever happend by the average American. Movies like the Pianist, Schindler's List and books like Elie Wiesel's Night are considered classics that should never be forgotten. Conversely, whenever someone mentions the horros of slavery, Jim Crow/racism in America or the genocide of the Native Americans most people could care less. Movies like Amistad, Bamboozled, Malcolm X, Ghost of Mississippi, Beloved etc. generate little to no interest from mass audiences. Think about the number of professional sports teams/colleges and universities that sport Native American mascots and tell me if people really give two shits about the extermination of that race of people. One of my geography professors in undergrad mentioned this phenomena and he said that he felt that white Americans (He was white himself) could relate better to the victims of the Holocaust because it was an atrocity that was committed against caucasian people. He also stated that if most of the victims had the facial features and physical make up of Palestinian/Israeli Jews, that the Holocaust would not have the same weight with people that are taught to value life along racial lines. I took a class on the Holocaust my senior year, and that professor even discussed the way slavery and the genocide of the Native Americans is swept under the rug in the U.S., but the Holocaust is considered the worst thing that ever happend. Ironically, many of the techniques used in the Holocaust to divide and conquer the Jewish community, limit their education, and race based ideologies were based on the actions Europeans used against enslaved Africans and Native Americans. Most explicitly found in education where the Germans wanted to limit schooling for Jews after grade 4, and they didnt want them to know how to read, or count over 500. That technique is lifted directly from the U.S.'s treatment of Africans, where slaves were not allowed to learn how to read or be educated BY LAW. Furthermore, schools on Native American reservations used a severely limited educational plan that was designed to keep Native Americans ignorant and powerless. Another example was the idea of cultural genocide the Germans wanted to institute against the Jews. That was modeled after the U.S. treatment of Africans and Native Americans. However, the general population does not really care about what OUR government did. The propaganda dissemenated by the German media depicting Jews in ridiculous stereotypes during the 1930's-40's was inspired by the racist comics, minstrel shows and cartoons that were dissemenated in the states before it was consindered politically incorrect. Cartoon Network still airs the racist Bugs Bunny cartoons during their annual June Bugs Marathon. These cartoons portray African Americans, Native Americans and the Japanese in a VERY negative light. But they still air them, albeit at 2 or 3 am. The point is you would NEVER see things like that peddled on American television if they showed Jews in a negative light.

The topic of ranking atrocities has caused great debate amongst scholors because many feel that other human atrocities are overlooked because they do not get the same press or garner the same interests. Based solely on sheer numbers, the holocaust was a considerably smaller and it did not all but eliminate an ENTIRE race of people in the same way that the Native Americans are nearly extinct. It's up to us to decide why we seek to justify or understand/downplay the actions of Europeans against slaves and Native Americans but then vilify the Germans. Remember this, all of the aforementioned atrocites were forms of genocide, just like the situations in Rawanda,the Sudan, Pol Pot and the Killing Fields, the conquering of the Americas etc . Also, remeber that JW's and Gypsies were VERY large targets during the Holocaust. Lastly, one major reason the Holocaust is gets so much attention is because Hitler was defeated and he was not allowed to justify his actions through history books and various forms of mass media. If Hitler had succeeded, the Holocaust would be viewed in the same way as the "Settling of America" and the "it wasn't that bad" lens we use to discuss the genocide Native Americans faced and the horrors of slavery.
[Edited 2/15/05 19:54pm]




I disagree that the Holocaust gets more "press" than slavery....I am old enough to remember Roots, Roots II, Queen ect....these were huge events and changed a generation...

I also dont know how we know what the "average american" thinks is the worse thing that ever happened...its seems like a supposition based on the success of a few movies in recent years...
... I know of no decent person that tries too justify or minimize the conquest of america or slavery or what happend in Ruwanda or Darfor...who is it that says the any of these "weren't that bad"? who are these people "who couldnt care less"?

I think this topic is ultimately destructive. Instead of focusing on the evil that creates these things we waste energy on discussions such as this....

Maybe you should listen to it yourself before going by the posts of others.
As someone who has listened to it repeatedly, I can tell you that the "holocaust aside" line is just an expression. He's still recognizing it as a terrible senseless thing, but focusing on general life and death primarily. You also mistook the other line. He asked "when all truth is told, would you rather be dead or be sold? SOLD, to the one who can now mate the displaced bloodline with the white jailbait. Thinkin' like the keys on Prince's piano will be just fine."
Listen and decide for yourself.

I do agree that human tragedies; i.e. genocide, ethnic cleansing and slavery shouldn't be ranked. But in all honesty the Holocaust is looked upon as the worst thing that ever happend by the average American. Movies like the Pianist, Schindler's List and books like Elie Wiesel's Night are considered classics that should never be forgotten. Conversely, whenever someone mentions the horros of slavery, Jim Crow/racism in America or the genocide of the Native Americans most people could care less. Movies like Amistad, Bamboozled, Malcolm X, Ghost of Mississippi, Beloved etc. generate little to no interest from mass audiences. Think about the number of professional sports teams/colleges and universities that sport Native American mascots and tell me if people really give two shits about the extermination of that race of people. One of my geography professors in undergrad mentioned this phenomena and he said that he felt that white Americans (He was white himself) could relate better to the victims of the Holocaust because it was an atrocity that was committed against caucasian people. He also stated that if most of the victims had the facial features and physical make up of Palestinian/Israeli Jews, that the Holocaust would not have the same weight with people that are taught to value life along racial lines. I took a class on the Holocaust my senior year, and that professor even discussed the way slavery and the genocide of the Native Americans is swept under the rug in the U.S., but the Holocaust is considered the worst thing that ever happend. Ironically, many of the techniques used in the Holocaust to divide and conquer the Jewish community, limit their education, and race based ideologies were based on the actions Europeans used against enslaved Africans and Native Americans. Most explicitly found in education where the Germans wanted to limit schooling for Jews after grade 4, and they didnt want them to know how to read, or count over 500. That technique is lifted directly from the U.S.'s treatment of Africans, where slaves were not allowed to learn how to read or be educated BY LAW. Furthermore, schools on Native American reservations used a severely limited educational plan that was designed to keep Native Americans ignorant and powerless. Another example was the idea of cultural genocide the Germans wanted to institute against the Jews. That was modeled after the U.S. treatment of Africans and Native Americans. However, the general population does not really care about what OUR government did. The propaganda dissemenated by the German media depicting Jews in ridiculous stereotypes during the 1930's-40's was inspired by the racist comics, minstrel shows and cartoons that were dissemenated in the states before it was consindered politically incorrect. Cartoon Network still airs the racist Bugs Bunny cartoons during their annual June Bugs Marathon. These cartoons portray African Americans, Native Americans and the Japanese in a VERY negative light. But they still air them, albeit at 2 or 3 am. The point is you would NEVER see things like that peddled on American television if they showed Jews in a negative light.

The topic of ranking atrocities has caused great debate amongst scholors because many feel that other human atrocities are overlooked because they do not get the same press or garner the same interests. Based solely on sheer numbers, the holocaust was a considerably smaller and it did not all but eliminate an ENTIRE race of people in the same way that the Native Americans are nearly extinct. It's up to us to decide why we seek to justify or understand/downplay the actions of Europeans against slaves and Native Americans but then vilify the Germans. Remember this, all of the aforementioned atrocites were forms of genocide, just like the situations in Rawanda,the Sudan, Pol Pot and the Killing Fields, the conquering of the Americas etc . Also, remeber that JW's and Gypsies were VERY large targets during the Holocaust. Lastly, one major reason the Holocaust is gets so much attention is because Hitler was defeated and he was not allowed to justify his actions through history books and various forms of mass media. If Hitler had succeeded, the Holocaust would be viewed in the same way as the "Settling of America" and the "it wasn't that bad" lens we use to discuss the genocide Native Americans faced and the horrors of slavery.

I do agree that human tragedies; i.e. genocide, ethnic cleansing and slavery shouldn't be ranked. But in all honesty the Holocaust is looked upon as the worst thing that ever happend by the average American. Movies like the Pianist, Schindler's List and books like Elie Wiesel's Night are considered classics that should never be forgotten. Conversely, whenever someone mentions the horros of slavery, Jim Crow/racism in America or the genocide of the Native Americans most people could care less. Movies like Amistad, Bamboozled, Malcolm X, Ghost of Mississippi, Beloved etc. generate little to no interest from mass audiences. Think about the number of professional sports teams/colleges and universities that sport Native American mascots and tell me if people really give two shits about the extermination of that race of people. One of my geography professors in undergrad mentioned this phenomena and he said that he felt that white Americans (He was white himself) could relate better to the victims of the Holocaust because it was an atrocity that was committed against caucasian people. He also stated that if most of the victims had the facial features and physical make up of Palestinian/Israeli Jews, that the Holocaust would not have the same weight with people that are taught to value life along racial lines. I took a class on the Holocaust my senior year, and that professor even discussed the way slavery and the genocide of the Native Americans is swept under the rug in the U.S., but the Holocaust is considered the worst thing that ever happend. Ironically, many of the techniques used in the Holocaust to divide and conquer the Jewish community, limit their education, and race based ideologies were based on the actions Europeans used against enslaved Africans and Native Americans. Most explicitly found in education where the Germans wanted to limit schooling for Jews after grade 4, and they didnt want them to know how to read, or count over 500. That technique is lifted directly from the U.S.'s treatment of Africans, where slaves were not allowed to learn how to read or be educated BY LAW. Furthermore, schools on Native American reservations used a severely limited educational plan that was designed to keep Native Americans ignorant and powerless. Another example was the idea of cultural genocide the Germans wanted to institute against the Jews. That was modeled after the U.S. treatment of Africans and Native Americans. However, the general population does not really care about what OUR government did. The propaganda dissemenated by the German media depicting Jews in ridiculous stereotypes during the 1930's-40's was inspired by the racist comics, minstrel shows and cartoons that were dissemenated in the states before it was consindered politically incorrect. Cartoon Network still airs the racist Bugs Bunny cartoons during their annual June Bugs Marathon. These cartoons portray African Americans, Native Americans and the Japanese in a VERY negative light. But they still air them, albeit at 2 or 3 am. The point is you would NEVER see things like that peddled on American television if they showed Jews in a negative light.

The topic of ranking atrocities has caused great debate amongst scholors because many feel that other human atrocities are overlooked because they do not get the same press or garner the same interests. Based solely on sheer numbers, the holocaust was a considerably smaller and it did not all but eliminate an ENTIRE race of people in the same way that the Native Americans are nearly extinct. It's up to us to decide why we seek to justify or understand/downplay the actions of Europeans against slaves and Native Americans but then vilify the Germans. Remember this, all of the aforementioned atrocites were forms of genocide, just like the situations in Rawanda,the Sudan, Pol Pot and the Killing Fields, the conquering of the Americas etc . Also, remeber that JW's and Gypsies were VERY large targets during the Holocaust. Lastly, one major reason the Holocaust is gets so much attention is because Hitler was defeated and he was not allowed to justify his actions through history books and various forms of mass media. If Hitler had succeeded, the Holocaust would be viewed in the same way as the "Settling of America" and the "it wasn't that bad" lens we use to discuss the genocide Native Americans faced and the horrors of slavery.
[Edited 2/15/05 19:54pm]

My point is this, reflect on our society and the way certain topics are treated. I am not ranking atrocities, I'm simply stating facts. There are volumes of literature that discuss why one atrocity carries more weight than another. This is nothing new. Yehuda Bauer, and David Engel both open their insightful books on the Holocaust discussing this very topic. Discussing these topics is not divisive, instead it raises awareness about how we still have not learned anything from these actions and we do not realize the effects these ordeals have on ALL societies. If we do not discuss them we will overlook their interconnected nature and the possibility that history can repeat itself. Did you see the very informative miniseries on the Holocuast that aired on PBS last month? Two professors from the University of Central Florida and Duke Univeristy discussed how all genocide is the same. Yet, in America people do not correlate the plight of slaves and Native Americans with genocide, cultural extermination and ethnic cleansing. I agreed with their statement that lack of understanding will allow history to repeat itself and that our media, history books, and educational system has taken mass intellectual discourse/critical thinking away from these topics. While omitting the hand our government played in subjegating and eliminating races of people.

[/color]
[Edited 2/16/05 13:16pm]

DorothyParkerWasCool said:

HW Meinig has advanced some interesting new ideas about the conquest of America... I'm reading his "Continental America, 1800-1867" just now, where he talks about "justifying myths" which are certainly alive, well and still utilized today.

Heiress said:

I will have to check that out. My favorite book of alternative U.S. History is Howard Zinn's A People's History of the United States. The opening chapters about the conquest of America are mind blowing, along with every other topic he covers from then to present day U.S. It raises some VERY interesting questions about the revisionist history we are taught in U.S. schools.
[Edited 2/17/05 10:59am]

DorothyParkerWasCool said:

emesem said:

You have the right to your opinion, though i dont think you are delving deeper than surface level. I think you missed the jest of my post, please re-read and try to focus on something more than the obvious points you referenced. I still say that the average American person could care less about other forms of genocide; mascots, Columbus Day, the unconditional love for Thomas Jefferson, Lincoln, Andrew Jackson, etc. would greatly challenge your assertion that people view things in a similar light. Hell Columbus day alone is a slap in the face to all indigenous groups in the Americas and "West Indies" because it represents the beginning of the end of their race, culture and civilization. If Hitler had won they probably would have had Hitler Day in Germany because their actions would have been justified thru years of schooling and the mass media.

The Roots miniseris was so flawed I do not know where to start. We must remember that Roots aired in the 1970s shortly after the major strides of the civil rights movement. The mini-series glosses over the atrocities of slavery and does not delve into some of the more gruesome acts that slaves were subjected to because it was desinged for mass appeal. Casting Robert Reed (of Brady Bunch fame) as a slave owner eliminates a lot of the film's seriousness because people will always reference the Brady Bunch and the beloved father figure when they see him (i.e. he's light-hearted, firm at times, but fair). Also, the neat and tidy ending as the free slaves road off into the sunset with the promise of a better tomorrow, omitted the fact that Jim Crow was looming on the horizon and it would last until the 1960's. That ending justifies the "Slavery was a long time ago, why don't you just get over it" view that is widely held in America. Jim Crow was as bad and often worse than slavery because it placed employement, financial, educational, and residential limitations on people of color. A more hard hitting film like Sankofa will never be released in the mainstream because it looks at the reality/brutality of slavery. Instead we get more sanitized versions like Roots and Queen.(I can recommend a series of documentaries that look at this very topic if you wish to delve deeper)

My point is this, reflect on our society and the way certain topics are treated. I am not ranking atrocities, I'm simply stating facts. There are volumes of literature that discuss why one atrocity carries more weight than another. This is nothing new. Yehuda Bauer, and David Engel both open their insightful books on the Holocaust discussing this very topic. Discussing these topics is not divisive, instead it raises awareness about how we still have not learned anything from these actions and we do not realize the effects these ordeals have on ALL societies. If we do not discuss them we will overlook their interconnected nature and the possibility that history can repeat itself. Did you see the very informative miniseries on the Holocuast that aired on PBS last month? Two professors from the University of Central Florida and Duke Univeristy discussed how all genocide is the same. Yet, in America people do not correlate the plight of slaves and Native Americans with genocide, cultural extermination and ethnic cleansing. I agreed with their statement that lack of understanding will allow history to repeat itself and that our media, history books, and educational system has taken mass intellectual discourse/critical thinking away from these topics. While omitting the hand our government played in subjegating and eliminating races of people.


[Edited 2/16/05 13:16pm]

You have the right to your opinion, though i dont think you are delving deeper than surface level. I think you missed the jest of my post, please re-read and try to focus on something more than the obvious points you referenced. I still say that the average American person could care less about other forms of genocide; mascots, Columbus Day, the unconditional love for Thomas Jefferson, Lincoln, Andrew Jackson, etc. would greatly challenge your assertion that people view things in a similar light. Hell Columbus day alone is a slap in the face to all indigenous groups in the Americas and "West Indies" because it represents the beginning of the end of their race, culture and civilization. If Hitler had won they probably would have had Hitler Day in Germany because their actions would have been justified thru years of schooling and the mass media.

The Roots miniseris was so flawed I do not know where to start. We must remember that Roots aired in the 1970s shortly after the major strides of the civil rights movement. The mini-series glosses over the atrocities of slavery and does not delve into some of the more gruesome acts that slaves were subjected to because it was desinged for mass appeal. Casting Robert Reed (of Brady Bunch fame) as a slave owner eliminates a lot of the film's seriousness because people will always reference the Brady Bunch and the beloved father figure when they see him (i.e. he's light-hearted, firm at times, but fair). Also, the neat and tidy ending as the free slaves road off into the sunset with the promise of a better tomorrow, omitted the fact that Jim Crow was looming on the horizon and it would last until the 1960's. That ending justifies the "Slavery was a long time ago, why don't you just get over it" view that is widely held in America. Jim Crow was as bad and often worse than slavery because it placed employement, financial, educational, and residential limitations on people of color. A more hard hitting film like Sankofa will never be released in the mainstream because it looks at the reality/brutality of slavery. Instead we get more sanitized versions like Roots and Queen.(I can recommend a series of documentaries that look at this very topic if you wish to delve deeper)

My point is this, reflect on our society and the way certain topics are treated. I am not ranking atrocities, I'm simply stating facts. There are volumes of literature that discuss why one atrocity carries more weight than another. This is nothing new. Yehuda Bauer, and David Engel both open their insightful books on the Holocaust discussing this very topic. Discussing these topics is not divisive, instead it raises awareness about how we still have not learned anything from these actions and we do not realize the effects these ordeals have on ALL societies. If we do not discuss them we will overlook their interconnected nature and the possibility that history can repeat itself. Did you see the very informative miniseries on the Holocuast that aired on PBS last month? Two professors from the University of Central Florida and Duke Univeristy discussed how all genocide is the same. Yet, in America people do not correlate the plight of slaves and Native Americans with genocide, cultural extermination and ethnic cleansing. I agreed with their statement that lack of understanding will allow history to repeat itself and that our media, history books, and educational system has taken mass intellectual discourse/critical thinking away from these topics. While omitting the hand our government played in subjegating and eliminating races of people.


[Edited 2/16/05 13:16pm]

SammiJ said:

Screw him! That pretty boy is guilty as charge!!!

J/K SammiJ. I love free speech just as much as Prince does!

...my basic point is how would an African American react to a Jew asking him "would you rather be sold or DEAD?"....the line highly insensitive on its face...

would you rather be dead or be sold", is PROLIFIC!!!

I am so thankful that I live in a country where a question on this website can turn into a hardcore discussion about everything you are not supposed to talk about with strangers. (race, religion, politics, etc.....)
I think all of you are right!!!! Because that's what you believe. I mean damn, I'm bi-racial, when I lived in New York, I was too white, when I lived in Alabama I was too black, and now that I live in North Dakota people don't know how to label me. Frankly, things like this don't phase me anymore. YOU CAN NOT CHANGE ANYONES MIND, EXCEPT YOURS! No matter how good you think your argument is, stop trying. You'll just exasperate yourself. These topics are things people feel strongly about one way or the other. I don't think anyone came to this site to get so frustrated defending their views on social justices. Just appreciate the fact that you can have yours and appreciate the fact that others are entitled to theirs. In the meantime listen to the songs that don't offend you or just decide that Prince is not for you anymore, burn your posters, albums and concert stubs. If you find any lyric, statement, photo, hair-do, or turd color offensive, remember "be glad that you are free", my husbands in Iraq keeping it that way for you!!