This began as a putdown to an orger who doesn't like Parade but maybe it deserves to be placed upon a higher plateu of existance. I'm probably wrong. Most of it's on another thread but here's my wee vomit for all to see, lumpy bits and all.

As any fule no, Prince can favourably be compared and contrasted to the bold Picasso, only working through the medium of sound. A true artist whose best works (PR, Parade, SOTT, Lovesexy, TRC) adhere strongly to what orger vainandy bewilderingly describes as 'weird', while his most commerical releases (D&P, Rave) are undoubtedly his weakest efforts.

Prince is not James Brown or Jimi Hendrix. Fundamentally, he is not 'for real' in the sense those artists are commonly regarded as defining. Prince is an art statement - a new form every time and very much pre-meditated and fully-formed before he reveals yet another layer of his psyche to the world. It's contrived - always. Miles said even Prince's sponteneity was rehearsed.

The man attempts to reveal fresh layers of his glass onion psyche to the world with every project, designed to appeal to the eyes almost as much as to the ears - every album could have been so different (I'm sure many of us fantasise with alternate track-listings for Grafitti Bridge and D&P) but it may not have fitted with the 'theme' he's trying to convey at the time. Once again, he's an art statement. A 5' 3" sexless, raceless embodiment of true inspiration and vitality.

This is why many people just don't 'get it'. He's a painter of sound on a canvas of image, deconstructing the human race's pre-conceived reality walls brick by brick. He actually is that over-prescribed term - a true genius.

Of course, his greatness will not even be remotely acknowledged to the degree it's deserving until he isn't around anymore. But he knows this. He's making tablets for history - not us. Everything becomes clear in retro-perspective. It's not about now. Never was.

At best, Prince creates alien lil' arty ditties which make you think and smile and yearn and taste something I like to call 'candleland' - the sense of something 'other' to reality. We all know this feeling, but become desensitied to it as the mundanity of this life stretches out ad nauseum in front of us - an illusional reality shell of ever-greying suffocation.

His music almost sounds like a 20th century Earth radio station on random, being picked up at a strange warped frequency on another planet centuries from now. I marvel at his musical cleverness and strangeness. He's otherworldly. He doesn't know, never mind do straight-forward. When he actually tries to fit in, the results are almost always cringe-worthy and forgettable.

This frustrates me. Most people, even many 'fans' of Prince, don't comprehend what we have here. And it's alive and living in Minneapolis.

.
[Edited 10/20/04 17:12pm]

I agree with most of what you said. However, the scary part is this-Prince is "for real".
The proof is in the pudding. See him live and in concert. It's about art, yes. It's also about the 2 and the 4.

skywalker said:

I just got a brain cramp.

Amazing Post Number23

thanks.

skywalker said:

I agree with most of what you said. However, the scary part is this-Prince is "for real".
The proof is in the pudding. See him live and in concert. It's about art, yes. It's also about the 2 and the 4.



Nice post #23

So because we don't have the same opinions, you resort to threads like this. Prince is a human being just like everyone else on earth. I am a Prince fan, not a Prince worshipper. He has made some good stuff and he has made some bad stuff. What I consider bad, you may consider good and vice versa. And if I consider some of it "weird" then that is my opinion. You are entitled to yours also

Anyway, it's your rant so rant on.....

'real' is such a difficult word and on that note did you hear that Jacques Derrida died? Take a moment's silence (now go there if you want brain cramp...)

Green said:

I'm certainly familiar with deconstructionism. I don't think anything truly means anything either.

23 this was the post you were sent to the org to make (even if it does go a little anji at times)


For myself I think that what we have in the man is an overwhelming talent that even he at times can't comprehend, but it was embodied in a shy young man. So he created "Prince" the rock star, bigger than life, and at times a parody that he could live thru and survive under the spotlight. Then as his music took him further and further he realized his persona could be an extension of his art.


I think now we are seeing more of the man, but even this can be a charade.

As far as his appealing to the masses I agree with you completely, the only truly bad music has been what he puts out in an attempt to get sales. The rest of it if I don't like it right away I know the fault is in me

Good post, Number23. I have never understood why people often are so quick to state that prince is 'just a man'. Ghandi was just a man, Muhamed Ali is just a man, Michael Jordan is just a man, Miles davis was just a man. No they are not. They are much, much more. They were given a gift to share. A gift which inspires, amazes and touches others. This alone seperates them from the mere title of just a man'. While no man is a god, i belive that certain individuals are put here to represent God and the beauty of his work. Prince is one of them 'men'.
[Edited 10/12/04 11:51am]

paintsprayer said:

I spent too many paragraphs attempting to articulate this one, pp. Personally, I think my own post was outrageously pretentious and once you tore through the ribbons and bows and fancy packaging, there wasn't really much inside. I can and will do a lot better. But presentation is important, as Prince certainly understands.

And yes, Anji certainly walks a fine line.

Number23 said:

Please go on then, this topic is one of the most interesting we have had here in a while

paintsprayer said:

All good things....

Number23 said:

A point that had interested me is how he blends art and parody. In part I think to mask his genius. If he can play better than anyone else while wearing a trench coat and thong he doesn't look like quite such a pompus ass, it's too over the top.

The whole trench coat and bikini era, was he taking one step further the "art" started by Jagger and continued on by Bowie? Or was he playing out a parody of the rock star, as was recently played out (and stolen from Prince) by Marilyn Manson with his Omega clowning? One thing we can be sure of was that this prancing star was already a rehearsed Character.

I do not know enough about his early stage presence to know when this started, but I have heard that he was too nervous to tour for the first album. Perhaps he then and there created "Prince" in order to continue his career?

How much of the "realness" of Prince can be attributed to genius and how much to child abuse?

Guess I'm going kind of Anji here, don't know if this was where you wanted to take this 23, but I'll wait and see where your going.

paintsprayer said:

can i ask a quick question?why do yall write mile long paragraphs?

The whole "Dirty Mind" era was simply Prince becoming more shocking and outrageous. The trench coat and bikini thing was used for shock value as well as the lyrics to the songs at the time. Prince was known mainly in the R&B world back then, the pop/rock world had never heard of him except for "I Wanna Be Your Lover", which was done at the tail end of the disco era and really didn't make a big splash in disco anyway.

Prince had just come off a tour as the opening act for Rick James, who is known for singing about drugs, sex, freaks, and the ghetto. Rick James came out at the same time as Prince but was much more successful because he came out from day one as an outrageous rebel. Prince's first two albums were much more tame.

Rick James would fire up a joint on stage and tell the audience to "fire it up dammitt". R&B had never seen such outrageousness before, so naturally the audience went wild. Prince continuously tried to upstage Rick James on this tour and was successful in doing so by becoming extremely sexually explicit. I think this tour was the turning point for Prince in knowing what he needed to do to make a name for himself. He needed shock value.

Later that year, he released "Dirty Mind" and went in a whole new direction. A lot of his stage presence and moves that year were very much like Mick Jagger. He started coming out in the trench coat and bikini underwear to shock people. He stroked the guitar and licked up the side of it in "Head" for shock value. He was doing what it took to make a name for himself.

Prince and Rick James were arch rivals for years after that. They were great competition for each other and it brought out the best music for both of them. It wasn't until after "Purple Rain" that Prince got into the "artsy/fartsy type stuff.

All this bullshit about Prince being Moses on the mountain making tablets for the future to "worship" and we will never understand it in our lifetime, is just what it is...bullshit. Prince did what he had to do in the early days to make a name for himself. Once he reached a peak at "Purple Rain", and no longer had a competitive rival like Rick James, he became bored and started doing "artsy/fartsy" type music.

You have to have lived through the Prince R&B years to "get it".
[Edited 10/13/04 3:14am]

ABeautifulOne said:

You should read Marcel Proust to know about mile long paragraphs...

David.
--

Thanks God his made this artsy songs, cause we get lovesexy and parade that beat the shit out of any of his early r&b albums.

And at the same time drove the majority of his original R&B fan base away (the ones that made him a star to begin with) as well as a lot of his new pop fan base. He's already a huge star but imagine the mega star he could have been if these fans remained.
[Edited 10/13/04 9:40am]

vainandy said:

I'm sorry- you are wrong. Prince is about as big a mega star as you can get. He is right up their with the greatest musical legends of all time. At this point, it is a simple fact.

As far as driving his R & B fanbase away- It isn't Prince's job to be pigeonholed and cater to a certain demographic just because they "made him a star". I am pretty sure Prince made himself as star. Prince didn't care about being a "mega star" ala Michael Jackson, but he is one anyway. This is why he followed up "Purple Rain" with "Around the World in a Day". This is why he doesn't take 2-3 years in between albums. He cares about being an artist and being paid for it.
[Edited 10/13/04 9:51am]

He obviously tried to get the R&B fans back when he put Tony in the band to rap. It was too late by then, music as a whole had changed and the old fans were not into that his new-found hip hop style. The majority of the 1990s, he tried to gain the R&B fan base back with his weak attempts at house and hip hop. A new generation had come along by then and the majority of them were sure not into Prince.

If "Rave" was not an attempt to a commercial comeback as a whole, then what is? Prince had guest stars on the album, which is something he never did in the past. Prince had only worked with unknowns in the past, with the exception of Sheena Easton and he had produced her previously to having her one of his albums. "Rave" was a desperate attempt at a commercial comeback and a total flop.

vainandy said:

So what was "The Rainbow Children"? Prince throwing in the towel in his quest 4 mainstream accpetance?

"The Rainbow Children" was one of his personal albums. He has been flip flopping between personal and commercial for years. You notice "Musicology" was no "Rainbow Children". He should take some advice from Billy in his own movie "Purple Rain".... "This stage ain't no place for your personal shit man!".

vainandy said:

Prince's new found hip hop style huh? Prince had been rapping since '88 (maybe even earlier). I think that Tony M and Prince's rapping of the early 90's was Prince trying to incorporate new sounds into his music. Saying that it was Prince trying to "gain his R & B fanbase back" is like trying to say that the movie "Under the Cherry Moon" was him attempting to win over fans of 1930's black and white films-it wasn't; it was Prince trying something new. Just like adding rappers to his mix in the 90's. (By the way Diamonds and Pearls was a HUGE hit and a majority of kids (myself included) were turned onto Prince by this album (ie we "were into him").

You are using R&B as code for "black". Prince has always had a strong black fansbase from the start.

Rave was an attempt at a commercial comeback and you can thank all the guest stars to A. Prince, gain, wanting to try new things. B. Clive Davis thinking he knew how to sell a lot of Prince albums.


"Musicology" was no "Rainbow Children"-whether that's a good thing or not is up for you to decided. "Musicology" also wasn't Prince "selling out" either. No two Prince albums are the same. You can speculate on why they sound like they do all you want, but you questioning Prince's artistic motivation or ability is mostly foolish.
[Edited 10/13/04 13:44pm]

7salles said:

I understand what you're trying to put across but....

There's no such thing as r&b. No such thing as 'artsy', 'avante-guarde', 'weird' or 'out there'. They're words. Words are labels. Language only exists to cage the inexplicable. It halts our sense of wonder. Is red 'red'? What is colour? Does anyone wonder what 'red' really is or merely accept it as the one syllable label 'red'. The walls are built in the mind. The inquisitiveness is immediately denied entry to the infinite thought processes of the human mind. I don't believe anything can be labeled unless the actual emotion/implication/genre/whatever is espiring to define the definition. In other words, everything is new unless it is repeating the past - therefore making any definition redundant.

Maybe I'm taking off too vertically here for actual flight. Prince Rogers Nelson...did what he had to do to become 'Prince' the icon. Naturally, applying heart not head, the man's music sounds like nothing else on earth. Forced, it sounds stale and, for want of a better word, outrageously cheesy. No wonder most people don't know what to make of him. How many times do we hear "I know he's talented, but..."

Personally, I'm amazed at some of the tastes of personality I detect from some orgers. I refuse to believe some are actually interested in true art/defining the age/raping history to fertilise the future...and so on ad infinitum. Maybe it's the fame/legend/celebrity of 'Prince' the really like, this creature Prince Nelson invented. Maybe they force themselves to dig the music. Truly, and at the very real risk of arrogance, I don't think many of the personalities who post on this site harbour the intellect to truly understand Prince and what he is attempting to express with his projects.

And...well, I would say more but I've probably offended the insecure and outraged the hardcore so I will cease to infect prince.org with anymore negativity and whisper 'stop' to the voices in my head with immedite effect.

.
For now.
[Edited 10/13/04 14:34pm]

Number23 said:

Here we have a good start 23

remember a lot of the personalities provide funding for the man to continue to create. Tell the voices to continue to mutter, I for one won't take offense, there is a lot to learn here if one looks in the right spots.

So he has been rapping since 1988...he lost a large part of his R&B fans in 1985. Looks like an attempt at getting them back to me.



Call it what you want, "R&B" or "black", who cares...this strong fanbase was definately with him from the start. These were his original fans, the one's that made him a star in the first place and put him to the point that he could make a groundbreaking, highly successful movie. That's what I have been saying all along, you're not pointing out anything new to me. A large part of this original fan base left because of the "weird" stuff beginning in 1985. He also lost a lot of his new-found pop fans because of this also.
[Edited 10/14/04 1:32am]

This may not be related to the topic, but this is what I have to say.


If Prince wasn't singing, he'd be a painter or a great writer. He was meant to be an artist. Heck, he might have even been a ballet danceer, he's that skinny.

Prince was born "PRINCE" -- that is why there is only one PRINCE. A lot of people try to copy him, but they don't have what it is that PRINCE has in his brain that makes him PRINCE.

Oh, the people that think he is weird, just don't get it. It takes an artist (writers, dancers, "true" musicians, painters, drawers, etc...) to fully understand from where he is coming. I mean, not just any ol' writer that does slam and call it poetry, or any ol' singer that writes "I got the block on lock," and call that a song; I am talking about artists that can't settle for being mediocre and have that inner turmoil or conflict. You know, I write, and I wouldn't want to be compared to Terry McMillian. I want to be compared to Fyodor D and Katherine Mansfield and Balzac and the greats. This thought at times has me throwing away stories that people tell me are good, but in my head, it's not great enough.

Prince wasn't "normal" from the beginning. What boy has a poster of the "Star is Born" in their bedroom? (I read this in an article where Lisa Coleman is being interviewed and she mentions seeing the poster in his room).PRINCE is unique. I just can't see why he settled for an album like Musicology. In his head, it's better than, say, anything Usher puts out, but it isn't "great!"

Ack! Where am I going with this, I don't know. I'm giving myself a headache. So never mind.
[Edited 10/14/04 6:47am]