I hear so much, positive and negative, about Prince's fusion-oriented albums, eg Madhouse, NEWS, Xpectation. I would just like to know what people who are really into jazz think of them. I'm pretty well versed in jazz but I've never heard any of Prince's fusion albums. Plenty of the people who've bashed them on this board seem to be bashing jazz altogether

Hmmm. I would say they definitely don't scrape the bottom of the barrel when compared to the worst of fusion, but they do suffer from too many unimpressing moments. There are brilliant ideas scattered all around Prince's jazz tracks, but for me there always seems to be some elements that ruin the whole thing. For instance on News he might follow a nice piano solo with an uninspired organ solo, even if there is no indication that an "organ player" would be anywhere present in the band. They seem to be lacking substance somewhat.

Madhouse really wasn't jazz at all. News & Xpectation are much more in that vein, they make for excellent sleeping music at the very least.

Hope the new one will stroke all the right spots. He certainly has the potential to make it!

The thing about jazz and jazz fusion is, the best songs have gorgeous chord changes and modulations, as well as inspired soloing that almost sounds like singing. Prince tends to jam on and on in 1 chord forever like it's a funk song then either accents the chords that aren't moving, or just arpeggios like crazy.

All blanket statements, but that's my most reduced perception.

My favorite is Madhouse 8 because I think his Linndrum sounds are fresh in a jazzy setting.

listen to some Jaco, Weather Report or Miles Davis' 'On The Corner' album. Then listen to Prince try Jazz and he really doesn't come close. It's not shit, but it's not diamonds either.

co sign

swiftyweb said:

well if those instrumentals aren't "Jazz" what exactly would you call those outings?

You've got to take it for what it is - Prince-jazz = Prince funk + Prince rock + Prince jazz. By his own admission, Prince isn't really a jazz musician, he's a funk/rock/pop musician basically. That's why he brought in the great Renato Neto and John Blackwell (in my opinion Prince's most talented ever backing musicians, along with Sheila E). He ain't a great jazz improvisor, but he knows how to put together a gorgeous tune, like most of those on 'Xpectation' and the haunting C-NOTE tracks 'Tokyo' and 'Osaka'. In fact, 'Osaka' is one of my favourate P tracks of recent years.

I'm still not hugely into NEWS, tho. Some nice ambiences in places, but if you're Prince and you're using rock guitar in the mix, then why not a few more big solos. It's like he's teasing us. The nearest we get is that dramatic mini-solo in 'East', which leaves one begging for more. 'NEWS' isn't quite a smooth bland-fest, but it needed more stuff going on and more of the invention we know he is capable of. Also, he could do with a couple of really distinctive, risk-taking horn-players, and be prepared to let them do their own thang.

If he's really going to get into the jazz or grow into a 'real' instrumental composer/ improviser he needs to master formal composition. I'd love to hear Prince do instrumental 'suites', a bit like Duke Ellington did in his later career. If he did this with his present band, he could finally be said to be 'the Duke Ellington of our times', as Miles Davis once said Prince could be. Bring on the Prince jazz/funk/rock/world fusion big band! The set list could include 'Crystal Ball', 'God' instrumental, 'Alexa de Paris', 'Xenophobia', selections from 'Xpectation' and 'NEWS' and other big production numbers plus new stuff. Even '3 Chains of Gold'! Oo er!

I love Prince. Even though I plan on being a professional jazz musician and am studying the history of jazz, I find myself listening to Prince more than anything. So I'm not bashing Prince when I say that if he really wants to play jazz with some credibility, he'll have to get back in the practise room for at least a couple years, because he simply doesn't cut it. I still listen to his jazz-oriented records, just because I love him, but when compared to the cats I normally listen to (Duke Ellington, Louis Armstrong, Wynton and Branford Marsalis, Miles Davis, Ben Webster, Lester Young, Count Basie, Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter, etc.), he is quite subpar. Once again, I love Prince to death, and listen to him all the time. He's funky, soulful, and rockin' as all hell, but when you look at it objectively, the shit just ain't swingin'.

Bluesnswing said:

He needs to study a lot of Jazz...but he can make it if he wants.Still waiting for a god Prince jazz album.

You're right. He has clearly proven himself to be one of the greatest talents in all of pop music. He just studied and absorbed the music of James, Sly, etc., much more than Duke, Pops, etc. If he got to work, then I have no doubt he could produce great jazz. But if that never happens, I won't love him any less.

Bluesnswing said:

Ditto. You got to admit the Madhouse ablums were the bomb.

He doesn't really need to study jazz, more, you have to be willing to give other jazz than weather report, ellington, monk, and davis a chance.


Listen to your local jazz stations. They play a lot of local, regional, and national stuff that is nowhere near the level of the "Masters," and you'll find that they are in the same area that Prince is at.


He's a GOOD jazz player. Not a great, and not a master. BUt he's GOOD. Darn good.


Damn these high expectations....

"Attempts" at fusion; that's a loaded question. I've listened to lots of jazz and music is whatever you want to call it.

Dauphin said:

SquarePeg said:

I didn't say it wasn't jazz I said it wasn' the best jazz. If I 'try' and make a sandwich I am not necessarilly going to fail.

Miles said:

If only everyone with an unbiased ear could use that statement as a basis before critiquing Prince's attempts at "jazz-fusion". Folks act like Prince declared himself the next Miles Davis or Duke Ellington.

psykosoul said:

Exactly

Ok he ain't the best jazz musician but he pisses all over Kenny fuckin' G

soulyacolia said:

Dauphin said:

Nah. I listen to a ton of jazz. Old, new, local (Toronto), international. I'm out in the clubs 3 times a week. I play at jam sessions twice a week (I try to, at least). Prince doesn't cut it. Look at it objectively. Imagine a brand new jazz artist came out with his first record, "N.E.W.S." Would anyone pay any attention to it? I highly doubt it. I also love Steely Dan fans, and have had the exact same argument. And speaking of Kenny G. (who is in no way, shape, or form, a jazz musician), if you don't have those damned high expectations, then that lets half-playing, pussy-assed "musicians" like Kenny G. creep into the industry and get away with shitting all over the greatest American art form. I'm not putting Prince into a category with Kenny G., because clearly Prince can cut Kenny. I'm just saying that lowering the standards of an art form demeans it.

I also love Steely Dan fans, and have had the exact same argument. [/quote]

Sorry. That should say that I also love Steely Dan, and that I have had the same argument with Steely Dan fans, who think that Donald Fagen and Walter Becker are good jazz musicians.

One more thing, I want to remind everyone that I love Prince very much. If it wasn't for this new Roots joint I just bought, then I would no doubt be listening to a Prince record. So don't tell me that I'm bashing Prince. I'm just not getting into hero worship.

Well, that was all very informative. My personal tastes in jazz are pretty lofty, so I doubt Prince's jazz stuff would interest me very much given these comments. However, I would contend that prince isn't as funky as P-Funk or James Brown, as psychedelic and rockin' as Hendrix, as melodic and passionate as Stevie Wonder, as iconoclastic as Bowie, Zappa or Rundgren, nor does he tredd the line between rock and R&b as well as Sly. BUT, all those people and their styles are ingredients in his music, even if he isn't as good as any of them. So maybe I shouldn't hold it against him if he doesn't do jazz as well as Miles or Duke.

I think the definition of jazz has become too narrow, sadly, when it is supposed to be an art-form that encourages musicians to push an envelope.

I will admit that I know much less about jazz compared to many of you, though I do love it. In fact, much of the jazz I do know comes directly from all you wonderful people answering my requests. I'm just not in the right city to be exposed to the music. We have one jazz club, and no jazz radio stations.

But, I do know music, and when I strip away classifications, I know what I love. The interesting thing to me is, I listen extensively to many of the artists all of you have mentioned (esp. weather report & jaco, Miles, Duke, Marsalis, Shorter, Hancock, Chick Korea, Thelonius Monk, Charles Mingus to name a few), and I love them, but what I love more are those artists that tread waters between musical genres, some of the "jazz" (and purists would argue with me here) artists that top my list of favourites would be Bela Fleck, Frank Zappa, and yes, Prince.

I don't think anything Prince has done on Madhouse, NEWS or Xpectation can be considered purely jazz, by any stretch. But, hell what does Bela Fleck do? Bluegrass variations of Bach, covers Beatles songs and throws in electric oboe players and Tuvian throat singers for good measure. And Frank Zappa, randomly conducting sound effects and orchestral sounds with hand signals. Yet, these artists have been classified by many people as jazz, and for good reason. They try to stretch and manipulate sounds and instruments in ways that aren't commonly heard. They play with music and they try to break free from traditional ideas and traditional unspoken rules of what you can and can't do. In my mind the very spirit of jazz in its earliest form.

I think you said it best jack, when you talked about all of Prince's influences, and the way these influences are ingredients in his music. I guess, if you look at some of Prince's songs, he chooses to make some of these ingredients more prominent than others. In Xpectation, NEWS or Madhouse, he's put those jazz ingredients at the front, and I think that because his "jazz" is so interesting and different from what I'm used to from the "classics", I'll prefer listening to it any day over something which feels much more synthetic and by the book like Musicology. Even though I don't play Xpectation or NEWS or Madhouse a helluva lot, I always get excited when they go into my CD player. Usually I'll pop these in when I am doing housework or something, and I always find myself running into the living room and just listening to the music, wasting the afternoon away when I had planned to do other things. And when the music makes me do that, I know there's something to it.

It's interesting, what people might consider to be "jazz influences"...

• The presence of certain instruments (such as saxophone, upright bass)
• The absence of vocals
• The occurrence of improvised solos
• Certain structures in a song (for instance, Melody-Multiple solos-Melody instead of Verse-Chorus-Verse-Chorus)
• Certain rhythmic elements (such as swing feel)
• An advanced harmonic and melodic language

Prince has used these devices in different settings and combinations throughout his career - sometimes more, and sometimes less. Personally, I don't think he's ever come close to playing jazz.

And contrary to what people might think, none of his band members are full-fledged jazz musicians. That becomes very evident in the live shows, where they choose to emphasize some of these "jazzy" elements.

John Blackwell is an amazing drummer, but he's really not a jazz musician. Neither is Renato. Eric Leeds sounds like he might be able to play some straight-ahead jazz, he could perhaps be an exception...but neither Candy nor Maceo are jazz players.

But there is always a danger in categorizing, putting a label on something. If you decide that a certain piece of music is "jazz", you will judge it differently than if you called it "pop", taking other things into consideration. That's often what happens with reviews - someone might analyze a record from the viewpoint of another genre, with different criteria. Therefore a good fusion record might (unfairly) be considered poor jazz, or a nice jazz album might be described as weak pop music.

Because of that, I think Prince is very careful not to call himself (or his band members) a "jazz musician", because then he knows he will be evaluated with different criteria.

However, I would love to hear Prince make an album of jazz standards, with a real jazz group backing him (not the NPG). He shouldn't play anything either, just sing the songs...I think that could be amazing!

The exposure of his (and the NPG's) instrumental abilities sometimes makes us forget what a fantastic singer he is!

I whole heartedly agree with both of those posts, Realmusician. Excellent points. I would definitely love to hear Prince sing some standards. Maybe "What Is This Thing Called Love?", or "Stardust" (that could be either really great, or really embaressing, because it's such a beautiful melody).

savoirfaire said:

Savoirfaire, one extremely common myth is that jazz is an art form encouraging innovation. It's not. History has proven that innovation finds the artist, NOT vice versa. All of the music's greatest innovators, whether it be Louis Armstrong, Charlie Parker, or Ornette Coleman, are musicians who had a full understanding and mastery of the tradition, and it was through this intense study, and a little bit of genius, did innovation come through. I absolutely love the Flecktones (hell, I was honoured when I jammed with Jeff Coffin a few months ago), but they ain't jazz. Just because they're an instrumental band with a saxophone, don't make it jazz. Another myth is that people like me (who don't consider the Flecktones, Zappa, etc. to be jazz), is that we think jazz stopped in the mid 60's. That's not true at all. There are innovators all around us. Wynton Marsalis has made leaps and bounds in advancing long-form composition as well as trumpet playing. Branford Marsalis' band is doing new things with ballads, and burnout music. Dave Holland is innovating rhythmically and with contrapuntal improvisation. I'm not saying that you shouldn't like Prince's "jazz" albums. Whatever moves you moves you. Hell, I like those records. But I like them for what they are, and I'm not going to slap a classification on it that will give it more respect, if it's not the case.

If U spend time doing 1 thing U could B the best at that thing. If prince just played jazz
and got really good at it and B came 1 of the best jazz musicians, we will be complaining
where has the funk gone, and with what he does there's only so much he can accomplish.
Is it us or prince that says it jazz music, maybe it's just nice instrumental music with a
jazz feel.

Dauphin said:

Shouts out 2 u Dauphin!!!! Excellent choice of words. I totally agree with u. P can do whatever musically he wants because he has proven that. I think his jazz is on target and will continue 2 get better. I like P’s attitude when it comes 2 being all u can be. He’s like the Nike commercial, Just Do!!! And he does it with such class and style. LOL!!!

Bluesnswing said:

Wasn't NEWS nominated 4 a Grammy?????