White people do not dig what he is playing? they want the more white rock music? When I look at the fan base that continues to support Prince I find this to be furthest from the truth. The fan base is a mix of all types of people and race etc, many different people from all parts of the world are supporting Prince. When I go to his shows I see a mix of black, white, latino..etc. (Personally, If I did not like the music he was playing I would no longer fork over the money to hear it and I think it comes down to that - for myself) as for others they like to follow the newest trend. The people here in the states no matter what the race are pretty trendy and I think the decline in sales is due more to that than it is the music. People are just do not follow the same artists forever - no matter how talented they maybe - and I think the loss of the sales has more to do with that than it be Larry G. or whatever music he is playing. I just never listened to someone like Prince and thought that some songs sound more black or white or what it may be!

Bibleteacher89 said:

Cool. Welcome!

Bibleteacher89 said:[quote]Ok. For all the uneduacated propagandists among us... First of all, Jehovah's Witnesses do not make a big deal out of the symbol of the cross.
Secondly, setting the record straight, JWs and others who also accept this truth, absolutely have basis and evidence for the change they made decades ago regarding the use of the cross as opposed to a torture stake.

Yet then an obvious big deal is made out of it, and those who reject the official Jehovah's Witness viewpoint are called uneducated propagandists, Bible illiterate, and at odds with God. He is obviously claiming the Jehovah's Witness viewpoint as the truth and anyone who disagrees is under unclean influences.
Jehovah's Witnesses have "always" had "evidence" for their views, like their numerous failed predictions of Christ's return.
I think the last time was 1975. When it didn't happen, the leaders blamed the followers for "making more out of" what was then clearly being taught in the Watchtower and Awake magazines. LIES! What's truth one day for them is heresy the next. They change truth like you change underwear.
There are countless numbers of former Jehovah's Witnesses(those whom the Watchtower refers to as apostates) who have come to put their faith in Jesus Christ, and yes, the Bible, not what the Watchtower says about the Bible and even history.

If you would like to hear more concerning Bibleteacher89's onesided story about the cross, stauros, check it out for yourself. Bibleteacher89 is leaving out a lot of information to prove the JW point. Randall Waters was once steeped in JW doctrine himself and served at the Watchtower Headquarters. He is but one example of those who have come to a personal faith in God.

http://www.freeminds.org/.../cross.htm

Mistermcgee..that's for the link. Very informative!

Think we could actually get Prince to change his song back to "The CROSS"?
[This message was edited Tue Mar 12 1:55:39 PST 2002 by CmputrBlu]

That's a cool ass drawing you made Gustavo! Great work!

What I cant understand is how the P fam community has so much hate for him. Prince is not easily led anyway & has always stayed true to himself if no one else so I find it hard to believe that Larry Graham is somekind of 'evil' influence on Prince.

Why is it such a bad thing for Prince to be looking into JW. Although not my cup of tea (as a born again christian), I think its good to see Prince exploring himself & the world. JW is not wrong, its just a different religion. From what I know about it, JW is not a cult like religion as it does not promote extreamism. I'd say that JW is more fundamentalist than anything.

All that aside (as it is mearly my own personal opinion) surely, the reason we are all here is because of a MUSICian named Prince. Notice I highlight the word music as, isnt that what its really about. Who cares what religion he is, who cares who his friends are & keep listening to Prince. He still makes a damn good funky groove.

To be honest, I love Prince & everything about his music but I dont really take an interest in his personal life so maybe its just me but I just cant understand the amount of bad feeling to two of the best musicians of all time. Ok, as has been pointed out in this post, there are some better bass players than Larry Graham & I deffinatly agree with whoever made the Bootsey comment. But all Im trying to figure out is why the Prince community hates Larry so much & why anyone thinks it is their buisiness to tell Prince who he can & cannot associate with.

Can anyone help me out?

CmputrBlu said:

It doesn't really matter in the long run. I have the "old", original version(The Cross)anyway, as do most of the fans. .
I have mixed opinions about Prince changing his songs. I know they're his to do with what he wants and maybe I should be happy to have two versions. But obviously you can't go to Egypt, dynamite the 3 Giza Plateau Pyramids, and then rebuild them, in an attempt to pass them off as the original or as if the original were wrong or didn't exist. No one is going to Giza and building new ones next to the ancient wonders either. Prince can't erase the past. It's impossible. What's done is done. The public and his fans are too intelligent.

Larry Graham is just a "scapegoat" because a lot of people haven't cared for several of Prince's more recent CD's and they don't want to blame that on Prince or themselves.
Larry Graham is not involved in the production of any of Prince's work, Larry Graham did NOT discover Kirky J. Larry Graham does NOT write Prince's songs.
If you don't like Prince any more, maybe it's really that simple.
Don't blame Larry.

mistermcgee said:
those who reject the official Jehovah's Witness viewpoint are called uneducated propagandists, Bible illiterate, and at odds with God. He is obviously claiming the Jehovah's Witness viewpoint as the truth and anyone who disagrees is under unclean influences.
Jehovah's Witnesses have "always" had "evidence" for their views, like their numerous failed predictions of Christ's return.
I think the last time was 1975. When it didn't happen, the leaders blamed the followers for "making more out of" what was then clearly being taught in the Watchtower and Awake magazines. LIES!
-----
This could not be a more perfect example of a case in point. Turning the words of an individual around and setting up a nice strawman for you to knock right over. That is obviously NOT what I was claiming. What I was claiming was that people like you are the uneducated propagandists. Spewing anti-JW rhetoric with no basis. As for the 1975 thing...talk about lies. Just because certain members of the organization jumped to conclusions about a chronilogical observation the was made regarding the 7th millenium of humankind beginning in 1975, does not equate to the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses being some false prophet. They cannot control what conclusions people draw from things out of being anxious to see the end of this system, any more than Jesus could control his disciples from jumping to conclusions about the thing that he told them. Which they did. Yet they remained approved. So, your tired lies and misrepresentations have no place in the same sentence as truth. You shouldn't believe every piece of anti-JW thread you read, folks. Checking the record for yourself will prove the truth to you. But, that's only if you want it.

And, by the way, we discerned Christ's return (or beginning of his "parousia"-greek"prescence") to have begun in 1914, not 1975. That is the year that marked the beginning of his rule as appointed king of the kingdom of God, corresponding to the end of the "appointed times of the nations" and also the great war in heaven that resulted in Satan and millions of other rebellious angels (demons) being hurled down to be confined to the earth until the end of this system of things. Since Jesus told us that nobody would know the day or the hour when this system's end would come, JWs have, officially, avoided predicting the date for this end. Even Jesus himself did not know when it would be when he was on earth, only Jehovah knew.(Matt 13:32) But as you can see from verse 33, we, as his true followers, were to keep on the watch and awake because of this very fact. So are you faulting God's servants for heeding Jesus' advice? One day, maybe you will be glad for the repeated warnings of this doomed system's impending destruction. Time is running out.

To Banishedbrian:
I can understand how some have turned these words at the beginning of TRC into alleged JW doctrine about the inferiority of women. There could be nothing further from the truth. We absolutely do not teach such distinctions between men and women in our international,multi-cultural,multi-racial organization. Women in our organization, while because of Biblicly based reasons do not posses "leadership" roles in the congreagion, have a most important and dignified role. They are, as is every member of the organization, ministers. As a matter of fact, sisters carry the majority of the load as far as the ministry goes, if you compare the hours spent in the ministry compared to the brothers. They are truly a large army and much appreciated. Never would we demean our dear sisters by inferring that the truth is not accessible to them without the aid of a man. The Bible merely outlines the headship arrangement in the family and congregation. Not that the women in this arrangement are less intellignet, spiritual or otherwise.

As for Prince's lyrics, I am still trying to figure out exactly what he is referring to with the whole scenario of the "Wise One" & "Woman". What I think(granted this is an educated guess)is that he is using the symbolism of the "woman" as used in the Bible; She, symbolicly representing God's universal organization. I think his reference to the "woman" being assimilated and being cast off with 5 others, is some sort of reference to the rejection of all of false religion,or,the 5 major branches of organized religion. Sarah was said to epitomize in her day, what the approved "woman" represented. Hence the reference to the muse to the Pharoh. But, the "woman" propheticly and symbolicly Jehovah's organization. How Prince weaves this symbolism into TRC, I am not certain. Listening to it over and over, I sometimes think "OK, I think I know where he's going here" only to find holes in his connections. He is really cryptic in his metaphors and connecting them in his epic. The overall picture seems pretty clear, but each individual "chapter" melding into the other sometimes confuses me. It probably is just the case of a new student of the Bible taking what he has studied and all the deeper things and making a story that makes sense in his mind and putting it to some great music. How close is it to the teachings of JWs? It's close enough to see his understanding what he's getting at. But we all know Prince has a different way of looking at things. I would find out first what exactly JWs teach in accordance with the Bible, then try to decipher Prince's encryption. Maybe you'll have better success than I...lol.
But, fear not, your concearns of JWs viewing women as inferior persons are not necessary.
For more info about Jehovah's Witnesses and our global activities see http://www.jw-media.org

Concerning Bibleteacher89's 1914 comments:

http://www.freeminds.org/...ew1914.htm
1914 and the change in "generation"(new light)

http://www.freeminds.org/.../part1.htm
Dates and the Watchtower


http://www.freeminds.org/...entile.htm
Gentile Times:607 B.C. to 1914 A.D.

. What Happened in 1975?
What Happened in 1975? The follow material comprises some excellent research by an ex-Witness (who prefers to remain anonymous). It shows how the Society tries to predict history
http://www.freeminds.org/...y/1975.htm

3. What About 1975
What About 1975? by Alan Feuerbacher It's interesting to note how Jehovah's Witnesses today often minimize what the Watchtower Society said about 1975 in the years before that
http://www.freeminds.org/...ll1975.htm

4. When Prophecies Fail (Jehovah's Witnesses)
When Prophecies Fail A Sociological Perspective on Failed Expectation in the Watchtower Society by Randall Watters Leon Festinger's Theory Application to the Watchtower A New
http://www.freeminds.org/...opfail.htm

for me it's the thought that Prince is not in control. If, as it has been suggested on other threads that LG helped P get through possible substance abuse then fair enough[rather he was a JW than a user] but if it's down to mind manipulation then i worry.

I cannot speak, but only for me.

LG's influence on Prince's music & behaviour is obvious.
I never heard any *beeps* in so many Prince -songs B4 than in the NPGMC AHDIO-shows.

P has never been so religious B4.

He (LG) got P to deny his own words, the ones he only wrote some years ago.


And yes, I have something against religion. Especially when religious ppl try to convince other ppl 2 believe. First with gentle words, if unsuccesfull with force !

@codshort: Dude, get a life. It looks like you feel personally attacked by the critisism on the religious influence aspect.

sorry mcgee...i have all the publications in context...you can't hang with all that evil-slave nonsense. Nowhere did the assertion that 1975 would bring Armageddon appear in print. That's the truth. I have the evidence. Anyone looking hard enough for the truth will find it. Thank Jehovah.

Bibleteacher89 said:

http://www.holyscriptures.com/franz.ram

-Bibleteacher

I thought Prince didn't believe in time.

And I thought he was against slavery, but apparently the Bible condones it.

Do you have an explanation for this?

You can go to this site and read it in it's entirety. Here is however the last part of this entire examination of the 1975 issue.
Pay very careful attention, because the Watchtower Society itself is guilty of what it accuses others of doing and having done. Out of their own mouths:
"Expectations built up by the false promises of secular and religious leaders have been postponed so many times that the hearts of the people in general are sick."

http://www.freeminds.org/...ll1975.htm

In view of the above information from various Society publications -- from The Watchtower, Awake!, Kingdom Ministry, Yearbooks and from various books and booklets that have not been quoted here -- it does no good for any of Jehovah's Witnesses to try to say that the Society never encouraged belief that 1975 would bring Armageddon. It is a documented fact that they did.

The Society itself candidly acknowledged some responsibility for the hopes raised by the 1975 expectation. The 1980 Yearbook, on pages 30-31, mentioned a talk given at the 1979 District Conventions, by the title of "Choosing the Best Way of Life." The talk "acknowledged the Society's responsibility for some of the disappointment a number felt regarding 1975." What did this talk say?

The March 15, 1980 Watchtower article "Choosing the Best Way of Life" contains, on pages 17-18, a partial text of the talk. It said:



quote:
-----
In modern times such eagerness, commendable in itself, has led to attempts at setting dates for the desired liberation from the suffering and troubles that are the lot of persons throughout the earth. With the appearance of the book Life Everlasting-in Freedom of the Sons of God, and its comments as to how appropriate it would be for the millennial reign of Christ to parallel the seventh millennium of man's existence, considerable expectation was aroused regarding the year 1975. There were statements made then, and thereafter, stressing that this was only a possibility. Unfortunately, however, along with such cautionary information, there were other statements published that implied that such realization of hopes by that year was more of a probability than a mere possibility. It is to be regretted that these latter statements apparently overshadowed the cautionary ones and contributed to a buildup of the expectation already initiated.
In its issue of July 15, 1976, The Watchtower, commenting on the inadvisability of setting our sights on a certain date, stated: "If anyone has been disappointed through not following this line of thought, he should now concentrate on adjusting his viewpoint, seeing that it was not the word of God that failed or deceived him and brought disappointment, but that his own understanding was based on wrong premises." In saying "anyone," The Watchtower included all disappointed ones of Jehovah's Witnesses, hence including persons having to do with the publication of the information that contributed to the buildup of hopes centered on that date.


-----

In this case the "wrong premises" were entirely given to the community of Jehovah's Witnesses by the Society itself, in particular by "persons having to do with the publication of the information that contributed to the buildup of hopes centered on that date."

Jehovah's Witnesses are encouraged by the Watchtower Society not to be bothered by the various false predictions it has made. Over the years a number of excuses and minimizations have been published. Note what the above-mentioned 1980 Watchtower went on to say:



quote:
-----
Nevertheless, there is no reason for us to be shaken in faith in God's promises. Rather, as a consequence, we are all moved to make a closer examination of the Scriptures regarding this matter of a day of judgment. In doing so, we find that the important thing is not the date. What is important is our keeping ever in mind that there is such a day -- and it is getting closer and it will require an accounting on the part of all of us. Peter said that Christians should rightly be "awaiting and keeping close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah." (2 Pet. 3:12) It is not a certain date ahead; it is day-to-day living on the part of the Christian that is important. He must not live a single day without having in mind that he is under Jehovah's loving care and direction and must submit himself thereto, keeping also in mind that he must account for his acts.
-----

In conclusion I will again point out the irony in what the above-quoted December 1969 KM said:



quote:
-----
Expectations built up by the false promises of secular and religious leaders have been postponed so many times that the hearts of the people in general are sick.
-----

The October 8, 1968 Awake! (p. 23) also ironically spoke about the Society's contention that the Bible indicates we are living in the last days. It emphasized that those who falsely predicted the end of the world were false prophets:



quote:
-----
Still some persons may say: "How can you be sure? Maybe it is later than many people think. But maybe it is not as late as some persons claim. People have been mistaken about these prophecies before.".... True, there have been those in times past who predicted an "end to the world," even announcing a specific date.... Yet, nothing happened. The "end" did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing? Missing was the full measure of evidence required in fulfillment of Bible prophecy. Missing from such people were God's truths and the evidence that he was guiding and using them.
-----

With regard to misrepresentations, and particularly those of the Bible, the 1974 book Is This Life All There Is? said (p. 46), without regard for the motives of the misrepresenter:



quote:
-----
Knowing these things, what will you do? It is obvious that the true God, who is himself "the God of truth" and who hates lies, will not look with favor on persons who cling to organizations that teach falsehood. (Psalm 31:5; Proverbs 6:16-19; Revelation 21:8) And, really, would you want to be even associated with a religion that had not been honest with you?
-----

So, all you JW defenders, what will you do?

AlanF


-----

So Bibleteacher what is the Truth? Is it all lies mrmcgee is quoting here or did WTS in fact say all this?

Didn't Prince once say that he didn't believe in time, because time is a lie also?

What do you say Bibleteacher?

This is copied and pasted from another thread I posted on here at prince.org, with some changes and additions.
Let me say first, and I trust you all will understand me. You are free to live your life and believe what you want. I cannot FORCE anyone to believe in Jesus Christ. If you are an agnostic, an atheist, a Buddhist, a Muslim, a JW, a whatever, then so be it. Disagreement doesn't necessitate hate. I have no power OVER YOU!

My purpose is however to show you what the Bible is actually saying on major doctrinal issues or essential doctrinal issues that basically ALL Christians believe and agree upon, regardless of denomination. Examples of this would be the nature of God, and the very identity of Jesus of Nazareth. I do not believe in the Koran, but a Muslim could come to me and at least show me what their book is actually saying. If you read the book, Lord of the Rings, and you came to me and insisted that the wizard who visited Bilbo Baggins was named Leroy Charles Johnson, I could point out to you that that's not what the book says. It says his name was Gandalf. You don't have to believe in or accept the story or even like the story, but at least acknowledge what the story is actually saying.
At the same time, when people come to prince.org and espouse JW teaching, I will respond with a refutation or rebuttal just to let others know that there is more information out there. Jehovah's Witnesses will not acknowledge what the book says, specifically about who Jesus really said he was. They won't even admit to what they themselves have said in their own publications, yet they insist that they alone have "The Truth"!
I consider the Watchtower Society to be an authoritarian, misleading cult, with a very shady history. This cult is CONSTANTLY making issues, laying down the challenge or the gauntlet, and attacking other Christians for their beliefs through their literature, and when confronted in return they often howl that they're being persecuted. [u}In Bibleteacher's case, he claims we are uneducated propagandists, Bible illiterate, and at odds with God.[/u] Dr. Walter Martin, a theologian and cult expert,before his death, on numerous occasions challenged the Watchtower Society to public debates about the positions they were taking on numerous subjects, and not once would they take him up on it.
http://www.waltermartin.com/trinity.ram
http://www.waltermartin.c...inity2.ram
There are other men, such as Raymond Franz, who used to be a member of the Governing Body of the Watchtower Society, who have published books and information. Mr. Franz published Crisis of Conscience and In Search of Christian Freedom.
Did you know that the men who "translated" for the New World Translation couldn't even read Greek? This was verified in a court of law. Yet millions of JW's have staked their very lives on a translation that has no justification whatsover for rendering certain passages from the Greek the way they did.
http://www.freeminds.org/...burned.htm
Randall Waters served at the Watchtower Headquarters for 8 years and has devoted his life to helping people he loves dearly gain freedom from the spiritual, religious bondage that the Watchtower Society has imposed upon their lives.
http://www.freeminds.org/
FEAR often keeps some Witnesses from pursuing the answers to legitimate questions and doubts they have about what they are being taught is the truth.(Notice how Bibleteacher is always talking about "The Truth") They learn to suppress them and conform to the "party line": What the organization tells them.

Colossians 2:4,8 "This I am saying that no man may delude you with persuasive arguments. Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry you off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ."

As my brother Prince says on TRC..."maybe they gon' fool the untrained mind, but nobody I know gon' bite."

2 Timothy 2:23 "Furhter, turn down foolish and ignorant questionings knowing they produce fights."

That being said, this will be my last comment on this thread. There obviously is no resoning with someone who spends more time educating himself with anti-JW propaganda then with the Truth. Your mind is poisoned. You are not concearned with truth, only lies, half-truths, and cleverly spun quotes. God's people don't have any time for all that nonsense...With over 5,500 persons each week around the globe becoming Jehovah's Witnesses through divine education and accurate knowledge, we are obviously busy enough teaching the ones with receptive hearts that Jehovah has drawn to Him that we don't have to worry about convincing the likes of you. Hopefully you do have a good heart and one day, this ill-directed zeal of yours can be directed to the work that God desires. Not toward slandering God's people.

Romans 10:2 "For I bear witness that they have a zeal for God; but not according to accurate knowledge."

vgallo6 said:

=====

i guess respect for other people's beliefs doesn't mean much to you, does it?

thecloud9mission said:

+++++

man... we are ageist around here too!!! as if most talented people don't get better w/ age...

[[Abrazo lies his head on this thread and declares it dead.]]

Sounds like I've hit a nerve and someone is quite unsettled.

CmputrBlu said:

With all the bible studying going on, someone should have been able to explain to Prince why he didn't need to go back and change lyrics. For all the recorded interactions Jesus had, did anyone ever notice where he told someone "Go, and sin no more. By the way, go back and undo what you did."
Hello???

(That was written with a BIG assumption about the reason why the lyric changing has occurred in the first place.)

mistermcgee said:

Oh, man! I can't believe what Bibleteacher did up there.

mistermcgee said:

might i add... i think JWs are more concerned w/ not worshiping images like the cross than whether it was a stake or a cross.

and it sure doesn't seem that JWs care much for "christian traditions" either, huh... traditions change over the centuries, sometimes for political reasons. that's getting away from the source.

mistermcgee said:

I think you did mrmcgee. I don't expect Bibleteacher to return to this thread anymore. I don't think he can handle it. I was so amazed by his post,I declared the thread dead, since our teacher of the Bible can only come up with disaster quotes... how painfull.

oh great, now i'm commenting on a dead thread (sigh)