thecloud9mission said:

While Larry Graham was and still is an awesome BASS player, as I saw at the Fillmore aftershow in SF, he's a horrible singer and his cult JW beliefs will irritate me. I really liked Prince's spiritual beliefs, they weren't so pushy and specific. They were general enough for fans to make up their own minds about what they believed. An Example of this is The Cross, Anna Stesia, Elephants and Flowers. Larry Graham came in and ruined all that. He made Prince conform to a SPECIFIC religion....err um...I mean cult and now his music is suffering cause of it.

While I LOVED Rainbow Children, I wish some of the lyrics(ie: Everlasting Now) weren't so overly religious. Spiritual is fine, religious is bad. There is a difference.

Who's to say who knows what "The Truth" is? The Bible? Well, it doesn't say in The Bible that Jesus died on a Stauros does it? And we still have to remember The Bible was written by a man. Yes, inspired by God, but men are known to make mistakes.

My problem with LG is purely his religious influence on Prince. Without a mic and with just a bass, NO ONE can touch Larry Graham (well, maybe Flea in a few years, but I digress...).

The whole JW machine I have had personal issues with and it hurts me to see Prince used in this manner. Yes, I said used, and since this is only asking for opinions, I think that's allowed.

My issue is and has always been how Prince's new found faith is ripping at the Prince community. We all have our own paths to enlightenment and I think trying to uniform that is wrong.

Prince's message had more impact for me when it was all-inclusive. Even if one does believe another's religion is wrong, that is after all, God's call to make.

Love4oneanother was the concept I joined on and I for one, wish it were still the case. JW's don't love everyone, just other JWs. I have a problem with that.

As far as Prince playing black music....Rock n Roll *IS* Black music in it's truest sense, so I have to WHOLEHEARTEDLY disagree with Cod-dude...I ain't MAD, I love all the styles and genres Prince can play, and I'm so JAZZED at the new things he's tryin with this tour....just lay off the preachin, Bruh, please I'm beggin ya!!

~Adore

Codshort- you must be a carpenter, because you hit the nail right on the head! Most white people don't want to hear black music, even if Prince is playing it. They,you know, feel that they have a right to tell any black person what to say or play. That's been well documented. Ask some of the older cats, like Buddy Guy and BB King. I've heard Buddy say, that the records that they made 30-40 years ago, were not how the played them every night in clubs and on stages around the world. But, the white man who own the record companies, wanted the music altered on the recording to better suite the white consumers. So, you're right, it's not religion in Princes music or life that they hate. I've told my wife for the past 4 years, that if Prince released a cd that's heavy guitar oriented, his popularity would be like "Purple Rain" all over again. That's what made a megasuperstar and they refuse to accept him any other way! It's that simple! Yes, I think musically, all of his work has been as good as any other artist/group. Prince just has the ability to make more than just pop/rock music, soul/r&b or funk. An example of his situation is, Sly Stone's movies not being accepted as good movies if they're not "Rocky" or "Rambo" related.
I've email Prince/NPGMC last year and told them that Prince needs to release a cd under many different genres. With Prince playing all of those instruments that he's been rumored to know how too play. I really did! I told (him) we wanted to see him playing the trumpet or sax, etc. Another example of how some so called fams are treating Prince would be like no one appreciating Michael Jordan because he's not dunking on everyone as much as he used to.
Claiming he's "washed" up (no pun intended) as he averages 25 pts. per game. Go figure.
Imagine that

Sorry it's just not true. It has nothing to do with black or white music! Especially those of us on this board. Fans that only like the rock stuff like Purple rain left Prince long ago. Please don't bring up race when it comes to Larry G. It has nothing to do with it, and if you read the posts this is what everyone is saying. Larry G to me represents the Sunday morning Gospel hour not funk or hip hop. He's too old school and his time has passed. It's great Prince brought him back but he shouldnt have joined the band. And let's not foget Larry's "One In a Million Song" was pretty white schmaltz to me!

Where do I start? There is a lot of truth being shared by all, I do hear a little resentment from some fams about Black Music (by the way, what is black Music?) Just be real and we can move on, and Also there is truth being shared about the influence of LG. I personally Love LG. but I also know that his time has passed, If his work was still hitting he would not have been playing the old school jams, charging $5 dollars a head, he would still be making new music, (Sorry) I was drawn to Prince because of the truth in his music, (Dirty Mind drew me and then controvery sold me, then 1999 sealed me) These records was about truth no matter what. I loved that, agree or disagree, he was doing it his way. I see Prince on Sinbad's show trying to explain why he changed the Cross to the Christ, and he started explaining then he said , you tell them Larry, (didn't come from prince, came from Larry) June 7, was a day all fams celebrated, and prince celebrated more than anyone, now we are not celebrating birth, but life, (not prince) Then I hear, Larry asked if I could do a concert with out cussing, and I said I never thought about it, (well I remember him talking about his father and him argument about his cussing) didn't change him, so now I am suppose to believe that a suggestion from larry changed all of that. (I'm not buying it) flying high on the wings of the New translation, (stabs me in my stomach)Why the New World Translation? No longer God is Love, Love is God, Girls and boys love God above, now its New translation. I am a Minister of God's word and I welcome people trying to find God in there on way, as long as they are serching for God, but all of this singled out JW influenced statements bother me, the bible tells us that before there was any Law, God had a relationship with Abraham built solely on Faith in God, I love Prince and his music, and I Loved Exodus, and the lest listened to CD for me has been Rave. And the Second has been TRC. some nice songs but as a whole, doesn't compare to the other work, I think Gold was spiritual and on the money. I pray that Prince will seek God and not The Watch tower, If the Bible is perfect, then why do we need any other materiel to explain the bible, the truth needs no explanation. and if the Bible is not Truth then we are all in trouble, think about it. Get off the Race, but if Race is an issue, be honest and discuss it, if you are not to careful, you just might learn something. God bless.

i havent nothing against Larry Graham and i dont understand
why the ppl dont accept him...
I think that Prince is FREE 2 work with who he wants...

Well I just have to say that it amazes me also that there are still people coming to this thread and say it's a race thing. WTF??? How can you say that? Read this mf'in thread and there are only very FEW who make that impression. Only characters like KKKellyAnne will hate Larry just because he is a black man.
People even say that white fans all have grown up hating black men. God, what a load of PREJUDICED horse crap is that??!!
P has always worked with black artists and if you call yourself a serious Prince fan you can't go and hate black people in his bands just because they are black!!!
What kind of ignorant remarks are that. Fuck that, it offends me. I have never hated a human of different colour just because he was not white. Shit man, chill with that ill behavior!! please!! because it is making me sick that some still think most white Prince fans are actually a bunch of racists.

I love a lot of black music, give me Miles, George, Stevie, Sly or Prince any day. Give me Larry Graham tearing the roof of the building with the Jam and you make my day a happy day. I have the utmost respect for all their music.

But unfortunately Larry doesn't want to perform the Jam for us, naaahh he rather tell us that what we believe is all wrong and that Jehova is the only way. That's how the man has proven himself to be, over the last couple of years and Prince is looking at his "dad" and thinks yeah he is so right... I gotta tell all my fans they are all part of the Devil's system... yeah that would be a GREAT idea!!

Why can't you peeps see, just by this thread alone that THERE lies the real problem???
NOT that Larry is black, for God' sake Prince is black!!!! sheessshhhhh

Now what are we going to do about it?

Peace!

From what I have gathered here, Larry is supposed to be the "discipler" who influenced Prince to "embrace" the Watchtower Society's views.
And then I hear that Prince is into this race/racial issue.
So, you have Watchtower doctrines, like changing The Cross to The Christ being pushed as "The Truth". You have this "blame the U.S. and the white man" for inventing and being the sole practitioner of slavery as "The Truth"(Please see what I had to say under the "Prince, If U want to preach, open a church, If you want to hold a concert, entertain" thread started by Squirrel Meat-the General Discussion Forum. How only 6% of Africans came to the U.S. as slaves).
The point is and my question at this point is, What does JW doctrine and these racial diatribes have to do with each other, when BOTH are being pushed as "The Truth" from Prince and Larry on stage? These racial issues are not official Watchtower positions are they?
Other things that puzzle me are: Prince mentions Akashic records in TRC. This belief is not Watchtower doctrine or Biblical doctrine. It comes out of Buddhism, as well as the occult such as the Spiritualism of Edgar Cayce. Also, Prince seems to allude to the mythical figure of Lillith, which is not Watchtower teaching is it? This is found in such places as Gnostic writings, the Kabbala(Jewish Mysticism), and the Babylonian Legend of Gilgamesh.
So TRC is not what I would call "pure" Jehovah's Witness teaching. I have heard others say Prince believes in reincarnation. This is not JW belief. Nor is it Biblical belief(Jewish or Christian).
If all these things are being espoused by Prince as "The Truth", then Prince is still ONE MIXED UP DUDE.

they all come and go.

Family Name and the Askashic records are almost the only lyrics on TRC I can truly relate to. I think he has a legitimate point in raising the Family name issue and the explanation of African American history told by the Akashic Records narrator is very well put imho. But yeah it's not from a specific JW doctrine, doesn't take away the fact that 90% of the lyrics are.

It is indeed hard to make sense of his JW stances together with the race issues.
One thing that they do seem to have in common is that both JW's as (militant) black leaders tend to have a problem with Jews. Of course this is because Jews have always been known (also based on prejudice) to be rich and very shrewd businessmen with hooked noses and bullshit like that. They are also said to be the owners of the Media and of many other major industry in the capitalistic world made by "the devil". JW's reject everything that is from the "World' so the Jews owning everything to them is nothing more than proof that the Bible is true and the Jews are not God's children, instead it's the JW's who are the real (rainbow?) children. They simply reject almost anything that comes from the World.

What i know about black people and jewish people, there is of course the fact that the entire world is always defending Jews alot for the suffering they had to face during history. Black people feel that it's not fair to them since it can be reasonably argued that black people suffered just as much. I agree with that for the most part, but making comparisons don't clear the problem up the least.
Also the Holocaust happened only 60 years ago, it's still very fresh ugly memory and it was pure evil what happened in german concentration camps: Jews were first treated like animals/slaves by the Nazi's and then simply brutally murdred, all of them, gassed and burned inthe oven, to get rid of them. That was the policy.

Black people were also brutally treated as animals, lynched, beaten and constantly humiliated... however- in general at least- they were not meant to be killed because they were much to valuable to the slave owners. There is a huge difference there imho. Jews didn't have any value to the Nazi's, they just robbed them and killed them. This doesn't take away the fact that many, many innocent black people also died a horrible death, e'g' during the transport in ships to America, but the two remain very different from eachother. Prince however thinks the comparison "would u rather be dead than sold" is completely justified. While i think it only throws more oil on the fire.

But to continue...while Jews DO get their emotional damages paid back with respect and acknowledgement for the hell done to them (they even got their own state and look what happens now) they also got monetary damages paid back and seemingly own all the big companies (WB??)

Black people STILL haven't gotten sufficient recognition from the wrongdoings of the past, especially not from their own government (see the UN conference on racism in Durban last summer where both the US, AS Israel refused to participate in making a declaration against racism)
And black people most surely haven't gotten any damages nor any industries to own. This way it's easy to understand for me why some black people don't like Jews too much, or just ordinary white people for that reason alone.

And so with some black people we come awfully close to judging every white or jewish man or woman alive on this planet for everything that happened to the black race in the past. As if black tribe heads back then didn't have slaves also and sold themalso to white slave traders.
As if never anything bad happened to white people, or Jewish people ( the jews were slaves under the Egyptian pharaoh!!... but not Akenaten?)
Things like this have happened to all yellow, red or green!
Fact remains that things have to change and there black people have a very valid point.

Unfortunately things like the Holocaust and Slavery are not so easily to explain nor to understand how it really is. It's very easy to get a biased look on it. Prince however acts like he knows it all... yeah right an artist that knows all the truth about these controversial topics everybody is disagreeing about, what an arrogance don't ya think?

but I'm not black so some will probably wonder what this white "anti- religion" fuck is rambling about. So I say sorry if you hate me I don't hate you...

Anthony7, your comment from 3/9: well-said! Larry Graham is a great musician - has been so for years & still is - it's a mesmerizing pleasure to experience the man in person. Prince is a man who has always made his own decisions. He & Larry are friends - that's Prince's & Larry's choice & their business. Because Prince cares about people he puts his personal beliefs out there along with his music - that's risky but he's willing to do it. One of the fams said it's our expectations of Prince that are part of the problem; I agree - let Prince be the individual that he is; his individuality is a major part of why fams love him - he does his thing - he doesn't confine himself to the boxes or limits that many people do, he makes his own decisions, he calls the shots in his life. He's human like us all - he accepts some guidance, direction, input from those he chooses to love & respect, that's the way we humans are & it's a beautiful thing - we don't have to agree with his choices. Prince - thank you so much for living your life to the utmost, thanks for the music, the lyrics, the outstanding performances, thanks for expressing your personal opinions. I very much appreciate, love & respect you for the influence you're having on my life, for the things that your lyrics & your stated views get me to thinking about, to investigating further, to feeling. It's up to each of us to determine what we'll do with any other person's views on life. And I thank you, also, for the beautiful people (fams) I've met because of you. Thanks for allowing God's Love to flow through you. Larry, thank you for the music. I love watching you perform.

I mean it when I say it does me good when there actually are people expressing that they feel comfortable with Prince's lyrics right now. I wish i could say the same, i can only say it for some of the lyrics on TRC, I like Everywhere and family Name for example, very positive songs, but the Work or Muse 2 the Pharaoh don't really make me feel good singing along with it. It's just that I don't feel good when I sing along with something I have a huge problem agreeing to, that SUCKS. I'm really sorry that it has to be with a fantastic album like TRC but it's a fact I can't deny.
It's hard to listen to Prince who seemed open to any belief as long as it was positive, but now has really changed his mind to something entirely different...but then again it sounds so funky that it's really hard not to sing along to the lyrics, damn P!! Must be the same feeling a Witness gets when he sings along to the lyrics from Head...

In addition to my last post...
Of course when looking at black slavery you have to recognize the effects it has had and still has on american society. It (racismj and discrimination) seems so incorporated in the foundations of US society that it seems that sometimes the entire system depends on it. Actually I think that could be (partly) true...
Up untill this day the causes from racism against black people can be traced back to slavery and ignorance. Sometimes it seems as if we ( europeans also) haven't learned anything from the past.... I am not planning to that myself to and don't think most white people have this agenda, but can only PRAY that this is true.

The internet and sites like this one(sorry Ben,I still love the site) give the "fan" too much latitude on topics like this.Then attitutes will then be based on what others on this site perceive to be right or wrong.

The Witnesses irk alot of people with their views, but so do every other religious group. The whole religion thing has been taken too far.This is a topic that was talked about last year and 3 months into 2002 we are still talking about it like nothing else has happened.

Prince Roger Nelson in the course of 10 years has ....
1.Married
2.Witnessed the death of a child
3.Fought and WON a battle against one of the largest media organizations in the world.
4.Divorced his wife.
5.Released several albums
6.Started his own internet site & fan club.
7.Witnessed the deaths of both parents in a 7 month time period.
8. Married again.

How many of you can say that you have undergone as many changes in your life?
Prince will NEVER again have the same popularity that he had in the 80's ,because of his stance on ARTIST'S RIGHTS.
Prince may never receive credit for this but the whole artist rights thing was brought to the attention of many non artists ,such as myself.Now artists like the DIXIE CHICKS are stepping out on this issue.

I really think we ALL need to give the man a break.If you dont like the music dont BUY it.

marce29 said:

"I've told my wife for the past 4 years, that if Prince released a cd that's heavy guitar oriented, his popularity would be like "Purple Rain" all over again."

what about chaos and disorder? that was not hit..and the gold experience was not a runaway success either.

-----

PS i'd just like to point out that alot of the slave dealers were black themselves.

To wollow in what happened in the past is not acceptable to me. Life is a bitch but you must make the most of a bad hand. Its true to say there have been many white bastards-slave owners but that was nearly 100 years ago.

ian said:

Anyone else share this view?

For me, it doesn't have anything to do with race or religion. I don't like the way Larry's presence overwhelmed Prince's music.

Larry had taken over the NPG. A couple of years ago, Larry and a couple members of his band, Jerry and Cynthia, had basically become part of Prince's band. You will notice this if you watch the Rave VHS/DVD.

The fans were complaining alot because Prince's live setlist had too many Sly & The Family Stone and Graham Central Station songs.

Also, remember when a show was booked with
posters that said Larry was the headliner and down at the bottom of the poster was a small line saying was the guest artist? Alot of people didn't like that at all.

In addition, Prince was on an awards show and he performed a Larry song instead of a Prince song.

The fans complaining about Larry got extremely loud after a show in NY where fans had waited several hours for Prince and when he took the stage, he stayed in the background and Larry and the NPG/GCS played Sly songs.

I witnessed one of the Larry era live shows. Larry performed Sly and GCS songs for over an hour, then Prince took the mic for only 4 songs. Prince fans buy tickets to his shows because they want to hear Prince music, not GCS music.

He's boring.
He takes up too much time on the stage.
And he's not Prince.
I dont go to see other people, I go to see Prince.

Agree, Larry is a hell of a bass-player. Yet he is 'just' a musician (like Wendy & Lisa) and certainly not a creator of imaginery worlds and wonderful music and lyrics, like Sly and Prince were.

The main problem I have with Larry is that he is trying very hard to create the impression he made the funk. He plays many Sly songs in his own concerts (and at Prince concerts) and he is acting as if those songs were created by him. And this is so untrue and blatant arrogance!
Without Sly, the musician Larry Graham would still play in that little church band in San Fran.

Sly was the genius of that band, Larry a follower of him. Stop the act that it was reverse!

And I like the album Fresh much better than any GCS album...

I think Larry is an excellent musician. However his form of funk is not for me. I would rather listen to Bootsy Collins anytime.

codshort

incoherently said:

Hold up!
You're talking loud!

1st, how do you know folks here "hate" him playing Black music? What's that?! He's black!!! He's blacker than most "soul" and RnB artists of today! If anything, most probably don't like his hip hop efforts becuase that's not him. I for one will admit, that when he took on rapping, it REALLY bothered me.

2nd, Wendy & Lisa offered colors that have been lacking in Prince's music in a while. That's all. Comparing them to Larry is completely unfair. Wendy plays bass sure, but not like Larry. Wendy is a composer, and a guitarist primarily.

Now, Prince's music had always been a hybrid of pure Funk , Jazz, Latin, Soul, ROCK, etc, ...when you say rock it sounds like you're saying he played like the Scorpions kind of rock...ridiculous.

My point is that when you go back and really listen to the records. Even when he created songs with rock influences, he was still playing black music! Rock N Roll IS African American music, child!

Anyway, essentially though, to look at his body of work in black versus white is extremely narrow minded. Like another poster said, Prince's music is Prince Music. A fantastic mixture of world music, if you will.


[This message was edited Sun Mar 10 11:23:10 PST 2002 by FlyingCloudPassenger]

Ok. For all the uneduacated propagandists among us... First of all, Jehovah's Witnesses do not make a big deal out of the symbol of the cross. Only when a person is making progress in the eduaction of the truth is the issue even raised. That is, if said person is still holding fast to the use of that icon in what he/she views as acceptable worship of God. We educate that one. For those of you who don't wish to accept truth and turn a blind eye all the while bashing JWs for trying to promote truth, so be it.

Secondly, setting the record straight, JWs and others who also accept this truth, absolutely have basis and evidence for the change they made decades ago regarding the use of the cross as opposed to a torture stake. The Greek word rendered "cross" in many Bible translations is stauros. In classical Greek, this word meant merely an upright stake or pale. The Imperial Bible-Dictionary acknowledges this,saying: The Greek word for cross properly signified a stake, an upright pole, or piece of paling, on which might be used in impaling(fencing in) a piece of ground. Even amongst the Romans the crux(from which our cross is derived) appears to have been originally an upright pole."

The book The Non-Christian Cross, by J.D. Parsons, says: "There is not a single sentence in any of the numerous writings forming the New Testament, which, in the original Greek, bears even indirect evidence to the effect that the stauros used in the case of Jesus was other than an ordinary stauros; much less to the effect that it consisted, not of one piece of timber, but of two pieces nailed together in the form of a cross...It is not a little misleading upon the part of our teachers to translate the word stauros as 'cross' when rendering the Greek documents of the Church into our native tongue, and to support that action by putting 'cross' in our lexicons as the meaning of stauros without carefully explaining that that was at any rate not the primary meaning of the word in the days of the Apostles, did not become so then, if at all, only because, despite the absence of corraborative evidence, it was for some reason or other assumed that the particular stauros upon which Jesus was executed had that particular shape."

As for the historicity of the fact that the cross is a long standing pre-Christian symbol used in the pagan worship of cultures dating back to pre-flood times(ie:neanderthals= the oldest found crosees), all one has to do is read any reputable encyclopedia, expository dictionary of Bible words, history books, and/or a number of books documenting these facts. This, as is tha case with many accepted "Christian" tradition, was carried over into apostate Christendom due to the means of forced conversion and terror waged by these ones for centuries. That's what happens when people are "converted" against their will. They don't neccesarily believe the faith, but it beats being tortured and killed because of not saying they are Christian. Entire Pagan cultures were forced to convert by these means, many times for no other reason than it being the opinion of the ruler of the time that that course would furhter his political power and influence. True Christianity was masked for centuries by these "weeds", just as Jesus fortold would be the case. (Matt 13:24-30) Symbols like the cross, as well as other pagan beliefs, crept into use by these so-called cultures of "Christians". I don't know why is is so shocking to some and so hard to swallow for others. It just goes to show how Bible-illiterate most are who claim to be Christian. True Christians would welcome needed adjustment to clean these "unclean" influences away from pure worship. Why would any want to continue in a course, as trivial as it may seem, that would put them at odds with God? That's why it was written: "True, God has overlooked the times of such ignorance, yet now he is telling mankind that they should all everywhere repent."-Acts 17:30
It all boils down to, how real is God to you?

Who would even want to respond to that! Wow, when the BibleTeacher weighs in, it's time for another thread. I, for one, don't come here for religious babbling! Snooooze me!

Bibleteacher89 said:

Bibleteacher89, what's your favorite Prince album and why?


[This message was edited Sun Mar 10 11:21:29 PST 2002 by FlyingCloudPassenger]

Flyingcloud,
I have to admit, as far as albums go, I'm not well versed in owning the LPs. I own a two volume "best of" CD I bought a couple years back. I also own TRC. I really enjoy Prince's music and talents. I love TRC for various reasons including the diversity of sounds he explores on this album. I love music, period. I have an extremely ecclectic collection of CDs that are and always will be extremely mobile. They go where I go. I enjoy (depending on what mood I may be in at the time) everything from Jazz, Funk,& rock(old and new) to latin-flavored music, country, and bluegrass...For whatever that's worth.

Bibleteacher89 said:

So, you have The Hits CD and the Rainbow Children and those are the *only* Prince CDs you have?

forluvsxy said:

Exactly. There was too much Sly & the Family Stone and GCS in Prince's setlists. Prince fans want to see and hear Prince, not Larry.

Bibleteacher89 said:

Bibleteacher:

I appreciate you coming on this thread and making such an illuminating post. With respect to the Cross/Stauros issue, I think people are simply using that as an example of LG's influence, as opposed to criticizing the change itself. I have no doubt that what you say about the original Greek translation is probably true.

I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on other parts of TRC and whether they conform with JW teachings. For instance, Prince begins the album saying:

"The Wise One who understood the law that was handed down from God long ago reflected the true meaning to his woman every day and she surrendered her discerning of it into his care and keeping for she trusted that he would lead in the right way. Her children in subjection to her, she in subjection to the Wise One, and the Wise One in subjection to the only begotten one, all forever in subjection to God."

This is the part of TRC that I have the most problem with, because it clearly demonstrates a view that men are superior to women and that women are incapable of "discerning" the Truth as well as men. Is that a Watchtower teaching, and if so, what part of the "original translation" spells out the superiority of men?

I still prefer his ´religious´ lyrics over the lyrics of ´La La La he he he´ ever. And nobody complains about his silly lyrics of the 80s