prince did not become lazy when he hooked up w/mr.graham..prince has been lazy since..let me see..1990..he has been searching for hits...he was a slave to the system(for lack of better words)..larry's influence had NOTHING to do with the product prince was producing..if you listen to every prince album..except for maybe the truth and chaos and disorder(by default)..there were blatant attempts on these projects that screamed..(in the prince screaming voice) I NEED A HIT!!!!!...need an example, check tgres remix.."..together we make the remix a big seller.."

personally, i have nothing against mr.graham..never have never will. if larry's the reason prince opened up his little neurotic world and let us in..power to him..i know prince will always be a weirdo..but at least he's a cool weirdo now..need an example..access to the soundcheck!!!

Abrazo said:

I agree 100% with Abrazo. People do not have problem with LG's musical influence. Personally, I LOVE TRC musically, and I don't even mind the lyrics because they're so absurd that I don't take them seriously.

I have a problem with LG walking off the stage when Prince would play songs that talked about sex or had swear words. (LG did this at PP constantly after he joined the band.) Then, LG gets him to start playing DOW without cuss words, etc. This was bullshit IMHO. Either play the song, or don't, but editing it is as dumb as saying "What the duck."

Cod--I'm sorry, but I think you're wrong about the people on this board. There are definitely some people who get tired on the '90s R&B stuff (for instance, the constant complaining about what songs he picks for singles, etc.), but most of us LOVE the music of TRC. The problem we have with the R&B that Prince has been making up to TRC is simply the fact that its plastic sounding (thanks to Kirky J) and derivative. It does nothing innovative. (Check the difference between innovative albums like Exodus and TGE and then compare them to RAVE and NPS.)

Personally, I listen pretty much exclusively to Prince, hip-hop and '70s funk/soul. The reason that I hate albums like RAVE and NPS is because he's trying to immitate crappy artists like Eve, Doug E. Fresh, etc. They are not musically innovative.

If Prince wanted to start playing with the Roots and Common, I'd have no problems. If Questlove replaced Kirky J as is new producer, I'd be ecstatic. If Prince wants to let DJ Premier, Pete Rock or Dr. Dre produce a song for him--go ahead.

Unfortunately, LG is a musical has-been who could not still write an innovative song if Jehovah's life depended on it.

Lastly, I just want to say that as good a bass player as LG is (or used to be ), Sonny T was better!

That's why I hate him, and until I get his daughter, I won't leave this town!

You guys on this thread are hilarious. The TRUTH is so simple and yet most of you refuse to see it. It has NOTHING to do with Larry, Kirky, or the music scene's changing to exclude what Prince does. Prince is BORED. He has done everything musically that he CAN do and most of you have such high regards for him and his abilities that you refuse to accept that as an option. Its the TRUTH. He's pretty much done everything except a bluegrass album and he is now focusing on doing what he wants to do. I don't like TRC overall and haven't liked a lot of his stuff as of late but I'm not blaming anyone else because no one else is resposible. Prince is the master of his own fate. I like the funk/rock tracks rather than songs like Dolphin, So Far, So Pleased, etc. The problem is that instead of learning to ignore the output and find other songs & artists that suit your tatses, many of you expect Prince "DJ Rogers" Nelson to play what you want him to. It has never been in Prince's style to commit to one genre of music, but he used to base what he did around one genre and expand from there. It seems to me that from the rantings of the old .org, he probably reads the threads occasionally and HAS been trying to please a certain portion of his fans with each CD; he just hasn't been doing a good job of it. He's BORED. He's not hungry; he's taken a stab at most musical forms and seems like he has come to his musical "wit's end". His EGO won't let him take some time off (nor will you pestering fanatics), so instead of chillin' out for a bit and regaining his sense of inspiration and getting a little hungry, he keeps going and whereas his musical abilities have improved, the heart & soul that was in the music has lessened considerably. Ultimately, only Prince is to blame for lack of WHATEVER in his music. He gets all of the credit when its good---he should get all of the blame when its not.

codshort said:

COD please! just stop. All american music cept some country is based out of black music. You yourself are guilty for thinking that rock is white music. Im not jumping on you just saying think about the REAL truth. Then, all becomes clear.

PEACE!

Larry and Prince are free to believe and do what they want.
I am free to choose to enjoy Prince's music and refuse/ refute any JW doctrine he or Larry seeks to influence me with via that music or time on stage.
Stake or Cross?
http://www.freeminds.org/.../cross.htm
Though the Bible does not specifically describe the instrument that Jesus died upon, tradition has it that he was put to death on a cross; consisting of a stake and a crossbeam. The Greek stauros is sometimes used to describe a simple stake, and other times a more complex form such as the cross. To determine what appearance the stauros took in Jesus' death, we need to consider what the Greek language tells us, what history tells us, and most importantly, what the Bible tells us. Furthermore, we must consider the significance of the stauros to the Christian, and whether it is a subject of shame or of great joy.
While the Christian church has never considered the exact method of Jesus' crucifixion or impalement as a major concern, the Watchtower has certainly made an issue of it. In doing so, they hold true to their pattern of majoring in minor issues; often distracting their followers from more important issues.
The Watchtower considers the churches as "unclean" for using the cross as a symbol of the death of Jesus. While it is agreed that worship of the cross or any other symbol is wrong, the use of a symbol for illustrative purposes has never been wrong, either in the NT or OT records. For instance, cherubs (angels) were embroidered on the curtains of the tabernacle in Moses' time (Ex. 26:1). The Watchtower even uses a tower as their own special symbol.
Up until the late 30's the WT pictured Christ as dying on the traditional cross. However, while later eliminating the cross as well as the name of Jesus on their front cover, they continued to use a watch tower as their symbol. In the book Enemies, President J.F. Rutherford attacked the traditional story of the cross as wrong because "The cross was worshipped by the Pagan Celts long before the [birth] and death of Christ." (pages 188-189) With no accompanying historical or archaeological evidence, Rutherford stated his new doctrine as fact. Actually, what pagans did with crosses before the death of Christ has nothing to do with how the Romans crucified people. Besides, Jesus did not choose his instrument of death.

To me the reason why many people dislike Larry G is simple. Let's not make this a black and white thing!.. a rock/soul thing! Lets not make this a religion thing! I for one think, look at why people hated Mayte so much when she was up on stage shakin her thing. Some people dislike like 'Wendy and Lisa'. Anyways, I think you all are silly. If you do not like the influence at the time.. so be it. I'm sure Prince will change in time as he always does. If you all were going around saying 'Prince plays soul music.."black music" I bet you, in a few he would go off and play something different. Well explain further to me you all what you mean by 'black music'? 'white music'? silly people:)!! haha

I don't like the influence that Larry has had on Prince.
I see a change in him. The JW religion isnot the true religion. I think Prince is more negative since he is in this religion.I think he made Prince feel guilty about his life style. He gets rid of his other musicians with no problem,even the ones the fans like, but not Larry, whom a lot of people don't care for.
I have family members that are JWs and they think that God only listens to them.
Of all the christian religions, I can't believe that someone as brilliant as Prince would fall for this one.
I don't wish anything bad towards Larry, but I wish he would join another band.

I think that it is obvious that when Larry Graham became involved in Prince's life he felt more comfortable evolving. Yes, I used the word evolving. He has always written about god in some fashion or another "The Ladder" and "I would Die 4U",for example now he is more comfortable doing so. Larry provided a comfort zone. I personally think that he is at a crossroads. He is making the decision of how he wants to finish his career(Writing spiritual or secular songs).

Yet, I will admit that I am not totally comfortable with the change. I also, agree with cod, the problem for me is that he is feeling guilty for who he used to be. That makes me question the integrity of early lyrics. Did he just write them to shock us or were they really a part of him. I just find it odd to believe that one as intelligent as Prince would not appreciate the fact that those songs have contributed to who he is today both musically and spiritually. Therefore, he should not be able to find shame in them.

Just a little thought

well lets face it...Larry is shit

I had nothing against Larry until he started playing mind control games with Prince. Now his influence has become a huge nuisance.

I am shocked and appalled by the number of Prince fans who blindly follow the "new" Prince, who is obviously not capable of making a decision without consulting Larry first.

Larry is responsible for all the religious and racial bullshit that we are being force fed by Prince. Of all the people on this earth, Prince would have been the last person I could have imagined allowing himself to be controlled, and in such a negative way.

Still, as strongly as I feel about this, I will not abandon Prince's music. I still believe in the music, although I am very disappointed with TRC, but I no longer believe in the man.

Shame on the paranoid at this site for turning this question into a race issue. Such CRAP! What a CHEAP shot by Cod and others.

The spiritual nonsense of Prince's earlier work was much easier for me to accept, since he offset it with open expressions of sexuality and (sometimes excessive) profanity. Now it's embarrassingly one-sided. How on earth can this be construed as a racist concern?! The paranoid militants need to get a grip.

O.k., where do I start....

I can buy the ideas here about P being bored since the 90's (IMO, post album). He has a right to be. More than any other artist I know, he has played most every musical style over his career and been good at all. This man put out so many different styled albums almost EVERY year since 1979. I say again he has a right to be bored or tired.....he's earned it.

The thoughts on the music changing lyrically, I don't buy. Listen to Temptation, God, THE CROSS, or any other of his spiritual/religious (same difference...all about the love of GOD) songs and TRC is no big change. He didn't go from I love Christ to Christ is the devil...he still sings about loving God. He may be a liitle more serious about it, but otherwise its no more than religious than before.

On changing the song The Cross to The Christ.....so what? Its his music, his art. If he wants to sing it in french or english or german, change whatever he wants...its his to do with it as he pleases. If you don't like the new song "the Christ" you still have the original "the Cross"...whats the big deal? He didn't go back and change the songs on every SOTT album out there. He created new art from his old. Once you buy that CD and like a song, does that give you the right to demand that he only sing and play it as you like it? of course not.... so there should be no big issue. If you don't like the new one...its a matter of your musical/lyrical tastes...not a matter of LG's influence on P. As much as he's sung that song, I don't blame him for experimentin with it...its his to do with as he pleases.

See....my points about the TRUE nature of this hatred is pretty transparent with stuff like....."cheap retro funk"....."retro 70's funk garbage"....."shitty music"....."JW mumbo jumbo". Thanks guys!!!

Milksode....I'm not saying that everything before Larry was "white music" ...not at all. If anything, P started getting criticized for sounding more "urban" starting with the NPG. Before that, most of the music P did was based in pop/rock/disco music that is/was more popular to the masses. The LG thing is just the latest veiled gripes about P's music not being as pop/rock as it used to be. He could drop LG and everybody else and put out funk or R&B albums and there'd still be complaints about something. Let him do a pop or rock album and they'd be claimin "P has made a comeback".

I agree with you P's music is neither white nor black...I love the rock & pop just as much as I love the funk, jazz & hip hop. The point is that everybody doesn't and they hate those sides of P's music. Thats where they pawn it off on "I hate LG's influence...blah,blahblah"

BanishedB.....I know that a great many of P's fans love all his musical styles and are willing to grow musically when he does. There is a small, but vocal minority that claim to be P fans, but bitch and moan about every album or song that doesn't take them back to when they flicked the bic at the PR concert in 1984. Personally, I look at it and think..."If P were a different race....would his own "fans" disrespect him so?" Think Elvis, Beatle or Grateful Dead fans diss them like P's fans do?

My question to you is what is so "innovative" about Exodus or TGE? What makes NPS & Rave crappy imitations of artists he features on these albums?


lastly, but definitely not least.....Cbastri.....I'll admit...I'm guilty.....rock really is NOW white music.....listen to any "urban" radio station or ask your friends from the 'hood. While the occasional rap or R&B song may make the rock/top 40 stations, black stations generally do not play white music. I was SHOCKED to hear N'Snyc's song (the slow track...Gone?) played on the radio and BET. Black folks ain't running out to get the new Creed album, heck.....most still don;t even like Lenny Kravitz. So no, outside of your avid music lovers and musicians, most of Black America do not like rock music. It is now a young white persons music genre....

Yes, most of american music is based on black music....but thats another rant waiting to happpen and I'm tired of typin.

Thank those who feel me trying to dig beneath the mountains of excuses why LG is "a bad influence" on P.....

The reason i don't like larry 'the hat' graham is quite simply because he thinks its his mission to save the world. prince has also taken this 'MJ' route since knowing him. And the editing P's older tracks is infuriating, especially after the protests P made about MTV and Miss Gores objections in the 80's. I'm old enough to decide what i want to listen to and what i want to beleive. I don't have to be preached to by Prince and some OAP in a grotesque suite.

The cross was a great song and the gospel choir was great but yeah larry ruined it for sure. Although I have to say he is a good player but not the best.

Turning the whole thing into a black-music-white-music debate is totaly sterile. I'm white and love soul. Eryka Badu and angie stone are great and i've been into them before Prince gave his 'blessing'.

Let me get this straight.....He ruined a song that still exists in the form you loved it? Hmmmm

live4lovesexy stated:
I am shocked and appalled by the number of Prince fans who blindly follow the "new" Prince, who is obviously not capable of making a decision without consulting Larry first.
Larry is responsible for all the religious and racial bullshit that we are being force fed by Prince. Of all the people on this earth, Prince would have been the last person I could have imagined allowing himself to be controlled, and in such a negative way.
>>>>>
Sometimes people who are extraordinary when it comes to being independent, a leader, and making their own decisions in given areas, often are handicapped in applying that same strength in other areas of their lives. I don't really know the full nature of Larry's influence upon Prince. All I know is what I gather here at prince.org and that is obviously not first-hand information. It is thus unreliable.
When it comes to music Prince needs no advice on what to do or how to do it. He just knows. He is in complete control. Perhaps Larry is that friend, that father-figure(as someone else suggested) that we all need in our lives. There's nothing wrong with having others to consult and help us through the complexities of life. We need someone(s) to confide in. In the multitude of counselors there is wisdom. However, a problem creeps in when it's the blind leading the blind. They both fall in a ditch. Or, if they knowingly, deliberately take advantage of and mislead us because of an obvious character or emotional weakness. Prince, being human like all the rest of us, is not perfect. He's got character weaknesses and deficiencies. Larry may very well have provided a lot of good advice as well as some bad.

codshort said:

Codshort, what puzzles me is why you feel that those of us who object to Larry's religious influence on Prince are somehow hiding a racist agenda.

Even worse than your one-sided view of history, in your arrogance, you see yourself as being uniquely able to detect latent racism in virtually any statement made about virtually anything.

I'm a very big Prince fan. I have more Prince material than any other artist. As far as LG goes how can anyone who is into music have anything negative to say about LG. Not only is hell a hell of a bass player as well as a singer, he is a gentlemen to boot. I must admit though. I am a little dissapointed to here Prince music as well concerts censored.Getting on stage and letting it all hang out is what Prince is all about. When you have to consentrate on not saying certain things it kind of makes you lose a little energy. Not much but a little. And in closing Prince was the one who said that he would rather see an unedited Chris Rock than an edited one. Either way your still the man. Larry keep on making that bass face..

Amen to MotherAfrica!!!

LG is not the problem, and I agree somewhat that laziness is where much of the blame lies. I'm open to other suggestions, but, I find it awfully strange that since GOLD, lyrically speaking the imagination and creativity are far gone. No longer do u hear a PRINCE song and wonder "what a unique way of looking at this or that." Sign of the Times, Parade, Around the World in a Day, Gold, of course Purple Rain and 1999( where have these imaginative and well though out lyrics gone?) Now we have "High", "TRC", "NPS", "Emancipation", "Chaos and Disorder", and "Rave"??? Name me one song off these albums that show that type of creativity lyrically? Did the same person write all those albums???? This is where the almighty Prince has fallen. LYRICALLY!!!!!

actually there are some good lyrics on Holy river and Da Da Da (although i'm not sure whether he wrote thoes) oh and i also found style quite a witty lyric too

On TRC despite the preaching i did think family name had some good lyrics

er....nope....thats it....rave and new power soul were bland bland bland...(and thats not Micheal bland )

I don't have or never will have a problem with Larry graham. I have grown up on his music and I have been a follower of his career until GCS ended and a little of his solo career. I think Larry is one of the most funkiest bass players alive and anyone who plays bass can defintely larn alot from him.

I know that Prince has a big admiration for Larry as a musician and a person. Although I think that when Larry became steady in appearance you could notice a change happening.

I realise that prince is a grown man and can adapt his life to whatever it is that pleases him at any time in his life, and judging him for his choices doesn't make what I think about his decisions change his mind. So I sit back and observe and hope whatever it is he's searching for he finds and it will be self gratifying.

I also know that Prince changes alot and at times he's just in it for a certain length of time, and if this is one of those times then so be it. I'll still be here. Mainly because I love evrything that Prince has shared with me regarding his music and whatever bit and pieces I have come across.

So if Larry being is his life at this time is good for him. Then I say whatever blows your hair back.

Inner Peace

codshort said:

Cod--let me clarify this point. It's not simply that Exodus and TGE are more musically "innovative" than NPS or Rave (which IMHO they are), it's also that they are simply better!

The reason that a decline in Prince's music coincided with LG's arrival really has nothing to do with LG per se. IMHO, the sharp drop-off in Prince's music had to do with him firing his best band ever in 1996, and replacing it with easily his worst! The NPG, with Sonny T and Michael B, challenged Prince musically and inspired him to write a plethora of great music (spanning all genres by the way). When he fired them and replaced them with lame people like Kat Dyson, Rhonda, and Mike Scott--he no longer had a band that could jam. Heck, they couldn't even learn enough songs to vary his set-lists during the JOTY tour, let alone improvise during a song. That's why Kirky J's role took on such a greater importance at this point. The '97-'99 NPG could not go in the studio and record anything worthwhile, so Kirky J became the dominant force by default.

The biggest reason that TGE/Exodus are great and NPS/RAVE suck has to do with the fact that they contain great live drumming, and band members that can keep up with Prince. (That's also why TRC is great.) The latter are also attempts to be "commercial," as opposed to going where the music leads him.

As far as RAVE being crappy imitations of the guest artists--do you like Hot Wit U? Give me a break, this song blows, as does the lame remix of TGRES with Eve that he sent to R&B radio. Prince is a much better rapper than Eve--he shouldn't try getting a hot rapper of the moment and degrading himself like that. The only thing worse would have been if Prince would have hooked up with DMX or Puffy, lol.

TheMax said:

TheMax....Im not saying that because you don't like black music youre a racist. Not at all....everybody has a right to their own musical preferences. Because you don't like one cultures music doesnt mean you hate that culture. You could argue that rap & R&B suck...I agree that most does....does that mean I hate my own people??...no, so the same applies to others.

Im saying stop using some very minor religious differences to cover up the fact that the real change has been P's moving away from playin pop/rock music, since LG has come around. THATS what people have been hating.....

bring back wendy and lisa!! oh and dr fink!

codshort said:

Cod--It's just not true though! The album in which Prince made the shift from rock to R&B was Emancipation, which was released before Prince even met LG. So how can anyone say that LG is responsible for Prince playing more R&B?

I can see where LG influenced NPS, Rave and TRC, but nobody is hating on TRC musically, so I still think you're being paranoid here. Plus, Rave is more "pop" than anything else, i.e., it's an album that appeals IMHO largely to the white "pop" audience.

The reason we hate LG is because he is a brainwasher.

BansihedB.....I can feel you on most of your thoughts on P's supposed decline. I agree that the loss of the best NPG band (and the move to Kirky on beats) was a blow to the quality of his music , but like you said...it has nothing to do with LG.

As far as Rave....I liked Hot Wit U....wasn't crazy about TGRES or Undisputed (did love the TGRES remixes). I can't agree about Eve. I'd take P with her all day, long before he & Tony M....Kirky J....and the other spare rappers he's tried. P is NOT a better rapper than Eve ( )....he's really just finally getting bearable to listen to (while rappin).


LG is a brainwasher, huh?
[This message was edited Sat Mar 9 13:40:23 PST 2002 by codshort]

Hi everybody, this is my first time writing, but have been reading for a while (quick intro). Getting back to the subject, Prince knew his affiliation with the Jehovah's Witnesses would bring lots of backlash and a lot of his fans would turn their backs on him, read 1Pet4:3-4,12-13. LG may have shown him the Jehovah's Witnesses literature, but Prince did not have to read it, he was never forced to do anything. Besides he will be 44 years old! How long do you expect him to cuss, and pump the floor, he has matured and so has his music.

Amen April.....but LG's ben a "BAD" influence on P, haven't you heard?

codshort said:


For me, as an example, the religious influences for Lovesexy compared to TRC are anything but minor. The content and INTENT have been changed from a celebration of spirituality and sexuality to one of religious and cultural exclusion and condemnation. Wow, just what this world needs.

How much of this is Larry's gradual, persistent influence? Who knows. But it is my feeling that Larry's musical genius comes with a lot of this religious baggage - sadly much of it bears the JW stamp. As far as I can tell, race has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

OK, Larry's a good bass player...but it brought Prince's cool level down on stage...when I come to a Prince show..I want to see Prince..not that silly white suited, big teeth grinnin' and bobbing Larry G. ... and Larry's responsible for royally fucking up The Cross.

Y'all have got to be trippin'!! Hating on Black Music??
I don't think so! Looking over my music collection it is rather apparent that I embrace "Black Music" - from old school R&B, to hip hop, to hardcore rap - I love it all!! My music collection is easily 85-90% Black artists. So,for me anyway let's just set that weak ass theory aside.
My problem with LG is religion.
I cannot and willnot ever fail to recognize that LG is a most talented bass player.
LG can and does, seriously, thump!!! That is a given.
My problem with LG is the religion.
Now, lemme preempt the argument that P is a grown man capable of making up his own mind....of course he is ...but regardless...the LG influence is much and it is undeniable.
For example let's take the cussing controversy....do you really think that one morning P just woke up and decided that, "hey cussing is really common. I am not gonna cuss no more. In fact, I think I will even go back and censor all of my work." No. It was the influence of LG that brought about that decision. Those are LG's words comin' outta P's mouth.
I see LG as somewhat of a cult recruiter.
Prince has always been a very spiritual soul, being blessed with so much raw musical talent, and genius and he has always acknowledged GOD and made it no secret that GOD was a major presence in his life.
Now, let's think back to a time when P was faced with overwhelming personal trajedy....the loss of his child, the breakup of his marriage to a woman he acknowledged publicly to be his soulmate. While quite expectedly P may have been questioning the whys and hows of his broken heart and while doing a bit of soul searching.....in walks LG.
A wolf in sheeps clothing. and as any cult recruiter knows... a depressed soul is easy prey. So,LG befriends P and guides him with JW teaching, masked as a sympathetic ear and friendly advice.
Now, can we talk about the birthday controversy....The P that was pre LG had always embraced bitrhdays and saw them as a thing to be celebrated. The Celebration of Life. Look at all the bootleg material of live birthday preformances. P had always been a big "Partyman" when it came to birthdays....his or anyone close to him. A day to celebrate the life those we love, cherish, appreciate, those who touch our lives and we are thankful for. Suddenly, P doesn't celebrate birthdays. Again, I see this as another instance of a 180 that has fully been incited and influenced by LG.
I have, myself, looked into the JW doctrine and did even do some bible study. I simply found that there is, for starters, something not so right with a religion that has a GOD that hates. http://www.watchtower.org...le_10.htm
I know that my GOD has not the capacity to hate. I had been under the impression that P, with all his Love4oneanother museings, held the same to be true. In fact I believe he did ....pre LG.
I also had a problem with JW's refusing to accept certain medical technology in the face of life threatening illness. So many children needlessly have died IMO because of JW ideology. I don't think that P, if faced with the choice of having a blood transfusion or death would even think twice. P would choose life. As any rational thinking person would do. Granted these are merely my opinions and I could be wrong.....Nahhhhh!!!
Now, what the heck was I trying to say.....
Oh yes, now I remeber.....
My issues with LG are based, entirely and solely, upon his religious politics and the incredible amount of influence he has regarding P and what I percieve as negative fallout due to this influence.

I do miss the days when P so eloquently mixed sex and divinity, saw us as one race..."human", used cussing in his lyrics because it was real, and knew that GOD shone from within and is not dictated by a cult or bound by cultish ideology.


Life Sexy u all