prodigalfan said:

while that is true (that the Civil War was over states' rights vs. federal power), it's important to not that it was states' rights to retain and promote slavery that set it off.

DorothyParkerWasCool said:[quote. I implore many of you, with the naive comments on this topic, to read alternative history books. Try to find books that are not written from the sole perspective of rich white men.
[This message was edited Mon Jul 5 10:23:25 2004 by DorothyParkerWasCool]
[/quote]


well said!

muleFunk said:

Too bad people don't realize this at the voting poll. Believe me, the 2 main parties is not about race, it is about the Haves and HaveNots. Race is used to confuse the masses and vote with knee jerk reactions instead of their heads and wallets.

the truth is lie Lincoln thought that Slavery was inhumane and wanted it abolished
but that has no interaction with his personally feelings against african americans
hew anted them out of his country
do your research
its the truth...

Luv4oneanotha said:

once again, in reply:

I'm black, and I have to say that what many people( Prince included) are leaving out of this is the fact that ,while Lincoln's early views were racist (1850's to early 1860's), his views changed over the Course of the years;he reversed his thinking; just before he died He was advocating blacks' right to vote.It probaly helped get him killed...



Most Lincoln researchers do acknowledge the racist overtones in Lincoln's early political life. On Oct. 13, 1858, during his famed debates with Judge Stephen A. Douglas, Lincoln spoke to what he considered to be basic black and white racial differences "which, in my [Lincoln's] judgment, will probably forever forbid their [blacks] living together on the footing of perfect equality." , and he did originally support the recolonization of blacks to africa...


But After seeing over 200,000 African-Americans volunteer and fight alongside Union forces, and getting to know people like Fredrick Douglass, Lincoln dropped his support for plans to colonize freed slaves to Africa after the Civil War. In an 1863 speech, Lincoln stated, "there will be some black men who can remember that, with silent tongue, and clenched teeth, and steady eye, and well-poised bayonet, they have helped mankind on to this great consummation, while, I fear, there will be some white ones, unable to forget that, with malignant heart, and deceitful speech, they have strove to hinder it."

On April 11, 1865 Lincoln delivered an address in which he became the first president to advocate extending voting rights to African-Americans who fought for the Union when he stated, "It is also unsatisfactory to some that the elective franchise is not given to the colored man. I would myself prefer that it were now conferred on the very intelligent, and on those who serve our cause as soldiers." By this statement, Lincoln indicated his belief that African-Americans should have full political equality. After the speech, Lincoln consulted with Fredrick Douglass, to talk to him about the speech and what he thought of it. In the crowd that day, an intently listening fellow named John Wilkes Booth commented to those around him, "That is the last speech he will ever make." And so it was. (Information Source: The Lincoln Museum Web Site)


In one of the most eloquent speeches of his career, Fredrick Douglass, on behalf of the black men and women of America, payed tribute to Abraham Lincoln at the Unveiling of a statue of Abraham Lincoln commissioned by and paid for by the Freed Men and Women of Washington, D.C. and other parts of America in 1876. Stung by white America's continued refusal to accord to black Americans the respect and humanity due them, Douglass describes the personal, historical and political conditions and limitations which Lincoln transcended to become a president for all the people. Professor Gabor Boritt, Director of the Civil War Institute at Gettysburg, believes Douglass's speech one of the finest Lincoln tributes ever written.

One historical site noted the following... "To apply 20th century beliefs and standards to an America of 1858 and declare Abraham Lincoln a "racist" is a faulty formula that unfairly distorts Lincoln's true role in advancing civil and human rights. "


growing up, we only know our own atmosphere, and until we experience something different to change our views, we hold onto certain long -held beliefs. Remember that . For most of their youths, Lincoln and his contemporaries would have encountered the slave as nothing more than the "somebody" who did the "dirty" jobs of those days.he probably held onto those views as he entered the political arena in the 1850's .but after seeing what blacks were capable of he was able to see the errors in his previously held views---; and when he eventually saw the error of his ways he altered his view ...when he knew it would probably make him more unpopular for doing so...while he certainly wasn't the world's most progressive thinker, he eventually became more progressive , certainly more than anyone else in the political arena of the time...

And i reply be it 1858 or 2004
the TERM RACIST
DOES NOT CHANGE!
Of course Lincoln Changed his views of African Americans after he saw millions fight for him during
the civil warBut the ink was still wet on his desion of immigration against them, Like i said before Lincoln belonged to many societies that denounced minoriteshe was not the man we are taught in school.
but if you do not like black people
you are a racist
if you don't like being near black people
you are a racist
1858
2004
in actuality the later formed Jim Crow laws were a product of a lincoln styled thinkin slavery is inhumane, but we don't want your people in our schols on our trains seggregation was the product,which lead to Plessy Vs Ferguson ,all going back to lincoln he was in deed a Racist. The other point is that you don't have to read in dusty documents. All you have to do is read any copy of the Emancipation Proclamation to find out the document did not in fact in and of itself free any black people. Worse, Abraham Lincoln did not intend for it to free black people. It's written in the document, and there's no doubt about it. And I would be very surprised to hear any literate historian maintain that the Emancipation Proclamation freed black people or that Abraham Lincoln freed black people.The thing that's mindboggling to me is that this information has been available for 135 years. I wake up at night sometimes and wonder why am I the first person to say this that the Emancipation Proclamation did not free black people.
[This message was edited Mon Jul 5 19:17:59 2004 by Luv4oneanotha]

Luv4oneanotha said:

You certainly are not the first person to say this(we learned it back in our 5th grade history class)-- your'e not even the 999th---no modern historian thinks that the Emancipation proclomation freed slaves; they all agree that it was a military strategy more than a humane deed--My point is that Lincoln eventually changed his views and dropped his support of recolonization; my point is that people can change their point of view once they experience something contrary to what they previously believed...
[This message was edited Tue Jul 6 7:31:33 2004 by paligap]

theAudience said:

thank you to whoever posted all these quotes. I watched a 2 hr docu on Lincoln that followed Lincold from his birth in the Kentucky(?) backwoods to his fatal day. What I gathered is that by no means did he think that blacks were equal. His only exposure he had of blacks growing up was watch the slave traders march them through the woods not to far from the various log cabins he and his family built minus their mother. Lincolns mother died while he was very young. Anyways, he never thought to highly of blacks and didn't like them and never thought of them as equals...which in my book, constitutes a racist. That being said, he felt bad that they worked for free and thought that they should get minimal compensation. And yes, the ONLY reason ANY slave got freed bcuz of Lincoln was to save the Union, not because Lincoln felt they desrved it.

Supernova said:

Thanx nova.

HotThang said:

Excellent recommendation. Arguably one of the most, if not the most comprehensive history books on the market today.

DorothyParkerWasCool said:

Just an FYI, it did not just go one way.

There were white slaves as well in early America. Check out "They Were White and They Were Slaves: The Untold History of the Enslavement of Whites in Early America" by Michael Hoffman.


Also what about the Barbary Wars? The muslim pirates of North Africa were notorious for capturing white Americans and Europeans for slavery. That's the reason the US Marines were created, to combat this.

BTW, I'm not saying that the actions were not unspeakable...I'm just pointing out that it wasn't a one-sided action. They're both/all equally barbaric.
[This message was edited Tue Jul 6 12:40:56 2004 by alexandernevermind]

alexandernevermind said:

I know about all that u have mentioned and you raise valid points. In actuality the term slavery stems from the term slavic which deals with European based slavery. However, this discussion was about Abraham Lincoln and U.S. perpetuation of African slavery so that topic, however vaild, has no bearing on this thread.
[This message was edited Tue Jul 6 12:43:58 2004 by DorothyParkerWasCool]