squirrelgrease said:

Got wood?

SweetTemptation said:

Handclapsfingasnapz said:

Actually, this is a good point here, which I never even really thought about until now. I've read these 'Lincoln Was Evil' threads since they first surfaced here, and I've actually accepted them, knowing that history is often distorted to be the easiest to digest. I still thought his accomplishments were astounding and he deserved his martyr status, but I recognized his motivations for doing what he did.

However, what is your source for this? If it wasn't taught in school, who taught it to you, and how reliable is that source?

he was flawed, yes. but actions speak louder than words, when it comes to the subject of "Avalanche"..... but of course that's lost on Prince.

A professor at TSU told us this in my African American history class.He was the dean of my college and was very well versed in Civil War history.

IMO Lincoln should be in the top 3 best U.S. Presidents.

I do believe that Lincoln ,along with 99% of the White population at that time , believed that the White race was a superior race compared to the Black race.IMO many feel that way now .
The US will not fight another "White" nation again.

Prince regained his Blackness in the post so many get lost by his comments during this era.To me it just made me love his work more.

rialb said:

As Racist as Ronnie& dem Bush boys!

To Victor 333

Everything that you think to be conspiracy theory is facts that are hidden by conspiracy.

Just remember that truth is stranger than fiction sometimes.

CalhounSq said:

theres more to the story of our beloved lincoln then meets the eye
1. Lincoln was a Racist
2. YEs he wanted to deport men of african decent
3. Yes once he found out it wa snearly impossible , he wante dto stick them into reservations

Its all in the book Forced into glory etc...

But to add to the Conspiracy theory, Lincoln was the First Of many President to join a secret orginization(not saying the name) which was against black uprising(well thats how it began)
Lincoln was known for telling racist jokes and denouncing black men
Did he Free the slaves?
Technically yes...
But afterwards he was planning to do worse before he was assasinated
i also disagree with sanctifying his beliefs just because we are prosecuting him in a modern society
Yes i know back then , many white men were racist, But just because we live in a modern soceity
the term Racist Doesn't CHANGE!
In School he is sanctified for freeing the slaves
because teachers are not alowed to teach children the truth, just like wera re not alowed to know anything about a certain "Patriot Act"

As for John Hammond
John Hammond was a white man Playing Blues
There were rumours that he payed a black man a certain amount of money so that he could get rich off of Black music. this is all speculation

thus P says "Sign your freedom over to me"

Luv4oneanotha said:

interesting....thanks for that.

Victor333 said:

victor the Key word is INDUSTRIALIZATION!
by this time The cotton gin was invented and slavery was less favorable to americans and was not a nessesity
the southerners just wanted to keep the slaves for their own pleasure
Lincoln didn't believe in slavery, but he did hated Black men and wanted them out of the united states

"To apply 20th century beliefs and standards to an America of 1858 and declare Abraham Lincoln a "racist" is a faulty formula that unfairly distorts Lincoln's true role in advancing civil and human rights. By the standards of his time, Lincoln's views on race and equality were progressive and truly changed minds, policy and most importantly, hearts for years to come."

muleFunk said:

bullshit

you
didn't
get
the
memo?

Lincoln
was
white

unremarkable said:

prove it.



show me "progression"
show me how he "truly changed minds"
show me his "true role in advancing civil and human rights" cuz no one got there 40 acres and a mule.....I'd take the 40 acres today.

( @ me just fuckin' up history).


Come on ppl....we were not taught accurate history in school.

Which John Hammond? SR or JR?
John Hammond Jr plays acoustic blues.
His dad was a famous producer who 'DISCOVERED' many acts eg.... Arethra Franklin, Charlie Christian, Bruce Springsteen.
Does any one know what Prince is talking about EXACTLY.....

nikkhendrix said:

Prince is referring to John Hammond Sr. who signed the majority of African American Jazz and Soul greats to record contracts. Many of those contracts bore the standard practices of the record industry, thus leaving many penniless and without ownership of their music.
[This message was edited Mon Jul 5 9:16:52 2004 by DorothyParkerWasCool]

unremarkable said:

I love this copout. Not every white person was racist during that time period. There were Abolitionists, Quakers, Feminists, etc., who denounced the evils of slavery so your statement has very little validity. Moreover, long before Lincoln entered office, poor blacks, whites and in some instances Native Americans traded,bartered, lived together and intermarried in areas such as the Dismal Swamp and these actions were supressed by Plantation owners because they feared being overthrown by the masses. The color line was drawn to manipulate poor and working class whites, the majority of white Americans throughout history, from joining ranks with blacks and other groups in dethroning the establishment (Rich White Men). The hierarchy will always remain intact because racists beliefs have been passed down generationally and schools, mass media, etc. perpetually distort American history. Besides, finding an excuse for your problems and or someone to look down upon/feel superior too is the American way.

If we go through the true history of this country we will find that the majority of American Presidents have perpetuated racism because it is a salient part of Americas economic structure. I implore many of you, with the naive comments on this topic, to read alternative history books. Try to find books that are not written from the sole perspective of rich white men.
[This message was edited Mon Jul 5 10:23:25 2004 by DorothyParkerWasCool]
[This message was edited Tue Jul 6 12:26:59 2004 by DorothyParkerWasCool]

AMEN !

muleFunk said:

Amen 2 tha 10th POWER!

I live in Tennessee in a very old "Civil War" type city.People down here always fly the Confederate flag and the economic system is still made up like a plantation.

People still dress up in Civil War era clothing and have these huge Balls where they pretend it is 1845.One day it occured to me that the only Whites that were allowed to go to these parties were upper class Whites.The poor and middle class Whites were the ones flying the Confederate flag and calling me nigger.

The paradox became clearer to me. The poor and middle class Blacks & Whites have a lot in common.If the two groups joined together then the rich class would have a problem.

Victor333 said:

EXCELLENT post Victor333!

EXCELLENT POST!

TheMEssage said:

Your post and your analogy are both weak and naive. With that line of thinking I guess it's safe to assume that Germans of the post WWI citizenry were justified in believing Hitler's racist/genocidal views about Jews because WWI left them without any pride opportunites and hope. A German citizen in that era would argue that if not for Hitler's vision of using the manufacturing and production of military vehicals/weapons etc., to put people to work and pull Germany out of the debts/out of a depression/reducing breadlines etc., Germany would have been mired in that wasteland for years. A product of that era could argue that Hitler was a progressive thinker who realized that the weapons had to be used on someone or country, in order to keep factory production up and people working. Fortunately, Hitler was defeated and he wasn't afforded the opportunity to "justify" his illogical and unjustifyable actions for centuries through history books and the mass media. Moreover, he wasn't able to become a mythological figure that is above reproach by the misled masses.

Your comparison trivializes what Lincoln really stood for. Freeing the slaves was nothing more than an action to preserve the union. Factory owners in the North could not compete with the production in the south because plantation owners had no overhead Lincoln had to satisfy the factory owners in the north and at the same time find a way to keep the south from succeeding. The economic autonomy in the south contributed to its rebelious nature, therefore they really did not need the north for anything. Lincoln's freeing of the slaves had more to do with economics and politics than him being "forward thinking". Lincoln's descision, like every other decision made since the inception of America, was money based. Lincoln made many concessions to plantation owners, ie. compensation for losing slaves, and not rapidly spreading the word throughout the south that Slaves had been "freed". He was kind enough to consider that blacks should be immediately shipped back to Africa. I guess you believe that Independence from the British was top priority for the average American during that time period too.
[This message was edited Mon Jul 5 13:09:45 2004 by DorothyParkerWasCool]

Well,well wealll !
Can the church say AMEN !!!

"I agree with Judge Douglas that he [a black] is not my equal in many respects, certainly not in color — perhaps not in intellectual and moral endowments; but in the right to eat the bread without leave of anybody else which his own hand earns, he is my equal and the equal of Judge Douglas, and the equal of every other man."
Abraham Lincoln
(debate with Stephen A. Douglas - October 13, 1858)

"I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views.

I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men everywhere could be free."
Abraham Lincoln
(letter to Horace Greeley - August 22, 1862)
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The Emancipation Proclamation was issued on September 22, 1862.
However the abolition of slavery could not be legally enforced until the ratification of the 13th and 14th amendments.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"There was more than a year and a half of trial to suppress the rebellion before the proclamation issued, the last one hundred days of which passed under an explicit notice that it was coming, unless averted by those in revolt, returning to their allegiance. The war has certainly progressed as favorably for us, since the issue of proclamation as before. I know, as fully as one can know the opinions of others, that some of the commanders of our armies in the field who have given us our most important successes believe the emancipation policy and the use of the colored troops constitute the heaviest blow yet dealt to the Rebellion, and that at least one of these important successes could not have been achieved when it was but for the aid of black soldiers. Among the commanders holding these views are some who have never had any affinity with what is called abolitionism or with the Republican party policies but who held them purely as military opinions. I submit these opinions as being entitled to some weight against the objections often urged that emancipation and arming the blacks are unwise as military measures and were not adopted as such in good faith.

You say you will not fight to free negroes. Some of them seem willing to fight for you; but, no matter. Fight you, then exclusively to save the Union. I issued the proclamation on purpose to aid you in saving the Union. Whenever you shall have conquered all resistance to the Union, if I shall urge you to continue fighting, it will be an apt time, then, for you to declare you will not fight to free negroes.

I thought that in your struggle for the Union, to whatever extent the negroes should cease helping the enemy, to that extent it weakened the enemy in his resistance to you. Do you think differently? I thought that whatever negroes can be got to do as soldiers, leaves just so much less for white soldiers to do, in saving the Union. Does it appear otherwise to you? But negroes, like other people, act upon motives. Why should they do any thing for us, if we will do nothing for them? If they stake their lives for us, they must be prompted by the strongest motive—even the promise of freedom. And the promise being made, must be kept."
Abraham Lincoln
(letter to James Conkling - August 26, 1863)
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

You make the call.

tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...rmusic.htm

The only problem I have with Prince exploring the Lincoln topic on Avalanche is why not go for the "holy trinity". George Washington, who "Never Told a Lie", was a slave owner and he oppressed a large portion of poor whites. Thomas Jefferson, Mr. "All Men were created equal", thought all men were equal except for slaves, women, and white men who didn't own any land.(Hmm, did he mean all "Rich White Men Were Created Equal") As for good 'ol Honest Abe, see above.

Please do not justify slavery with that tired, time period argument. There are volumes of literature that dispute the widespread acceptance of slavery. Slavery was invented to justify the unspeakable actions of Europeans against Africans. The same was done to justify the genocide and extermination of Native Americans. This shit has been peddled for so long that whenever someone offers a dissenting opinion they are labeled as believing in a "conspiracy theory". Conspiracy Theory my ass, please don't insult my intelligence with your ignorance. The saddest part about this is all of this stuff is documented, in the mythological figures own words and handwriting, but of course if it isn't on the local News, CNN/Fox News or the History channel or if we didn't learn it in the no-critical-thinking-allowed US elementary and secondary school system, the masses will never know.
[This message was edited Tue Jul 6 12:32:23 2004 by DorothyParkerWasCool]

DorothyParkerWasCool said:

LOL I'm tempted to make this my new signature.

Seriously though...DPWC raises some very valid points. Some of you may wish to read some texts such as Howard Zinn's A People's History of the United States to gain a better understanding of American history outside of what is presented to us in our classrooms.

DPWC lays down the law yet again.

Dorothy Parker: You're my HERO!!!! It's shame how much false shit they feed us as children and we are too ignorant [complacent] to seek out information for ourselves. We just accept EVERYTHING society tells us as "fact!" Even now, it STILL happens: you can't say anything critical about our government; we're not even encouraged to analyze the facts and then make our own assessment. That was the gist of "Fahrenheit 911," and I think it's sad that we continue to stiffle opinions that don't match our own distorted way of thinking...

I'm black, and I have to say that what many people( Prince included) are leaving out of this is the fact that ,while Lincoln's early views were racist (1850's to early 1860's), his views changed over the Course of the years;he reversed his thinking; just before he died He was advocating blacks' right to vote.It probaly helped get him killed...



Most Lincoln researchers do acknowledge the racist overtones in Lincoln's early political life. On Oct. 13, 1858, during his famed debates with Judge Stephen A. Douglas, Lincoln spoke to what he considered to be basic black and white racial differences "which, in my [Lincoln's] judgment, will probably forever forbid their [blacks] living together on the footing of perfect equality." , and he did originally support the recolonization of blacks to africa...


But After seeing over 200,000 African-Americans volunteer and fight alongside Union forces, and getting to know people like Fredrick Douglass, Lincoln dropped his support for plans to colonize freed slaves to Africa after the Civil War. In an 1863 speech, Lincoln stated, "there will be some black men who can remember that, with silent tongue, and clenched teeth, and steady eye, and well-poised bayonet, they have helped mankind on to this great consummation, while, I fear, there will be some white ones, unable to forget that, with malignant heart, and deceitful speech, they have strove to hinder it."

On April 11, 1865 Lincoln delivered an address in which he became the first president to advocate extending voting rights to African-Americans who fought for the Union when he stated, "It is also unsatisfactory to some that the elective franchise is not given to the colored man. I would myself prefer that it were now conferred on the very intelligent, and on those who serve our cause as soldiers." By this statement, Lincoln indicated his belief that African-Americans should have full political equality. After the speech, Lincoln consulted with Fredrick Douglass, to talk to him about the speech and what he thought of it. In the crowd that day, an intently listening fellow named John Wilkes Booth commented to those around him, "That is the last speech he will ever make." And so it was. (Information Source: The Lincoln Museum Web Site)


In one of the most eloquent speeches of his career, Fredrick Douglass, on behalf of the black men and women of America, payed tribute to Abraham Lincoln at the Unveiling of a statue of Abraham Lincoln commissioned by and paid for by the Freed Men and Women of Washington, D.C. and other parts of America in 1876. Stung by white America's continued refusal to accord to black Americans the respect and humanity due them, Douglass describes the personal, historical and political conditions and limitations which Lincoln transcended to become a president for all the people. Professor Gabor Boritt, Director of the Civil War Institute at Gettysburg, believes Douglass's speech one of the finest Lincoln tributes ever written.

One historical site noted the following... "To apply 20th century beliefs and standards to an America of 1858 and declare Abraham Lincoln a "racist" is a faulty formula that unfairly distorts Lincoln's true role in advancing civil and human rights. "


growing up, we only know our own atmosphere, and until we experience something different to change our views, we hold onto certain long -held beliefs. Remember that . For most of their youths, Lincoln and his contemporaries would have encountered the slave as nothing more than the "somebody" who did the "dirty" jobs of those days.he probably held onto those views as he entered the political arena in the 1850's .but after seeing what blacks were capable of he was able to see the errors in his previously held views---; and when he eventually saw the error of his ways he altered his view ...when he knew it would probably make him more unpopular for doing so...while he certainly wasn't the world's most progressive thinker, he eventually became more progressive , certainly more than anyone else in the political arena of the time...
[This message was edited Mon Jul 5 16:09:40 2004 by paligap]

muleFunk said:

thanks for giving some thought to the original question. I had to go thru several BS to get to yours.
I have also been told that the Civil war was really about Federal power superseding states power and when several states decided that they wanted to leave the USA, that is when the fight broke out. US gov was not going to let GA, AL, MS and others just take off.