I cannot possibly see this happening but knowing P and his unpredictable nature...

Me'shell, Sheila E., Lisa and Wendy backing Prince would be

awesome!!! Now that's Revolutionary... And 2 those hating

on Jay Z. and Hip Hop, please make note that it takes more

than just putting words 2gether in order 2 make a good Hip

Hop record. The feel, the flow... everything. People

called Rock and Roll "non-musicians" music when it first

came out. No one thought that Jazz would be accepted

because it was based on improvisation and and it had no

structure. Ask the Roots if musicians can play Hip Hop. It

has grown in2 more than just putting words 2 a beat. It has

grown in2 more than just sampling. Yes, some people only

know the crossover radio hit side that the kids and

20-somethings love, but there is more out there than that.

That's why it's important that pop rappers like Jay Z even

try 2 make things happen like this. It was important 4

Eminem 2 play with the Roots at the Grammies. Hip Hip has

kept James Brown and George Clinton's names in the spotlight

through sampling, and it could also help keep Prince's name

out there so the youth 2day can realize what a genius he is.

Times have changed, y'all. Prince knew it in '87 when he

dropped "Dead On It" from the Black Album on us. He

recorded that song because he knew Hip Hop would take over

eventually. Don't worry... I hated it when he used Tony M.

on his records also! I always asked myself "Why doesn't he

get rappers that people know instead?" The answer was

simple... Isolation in MPLS. He didn't understand the

culture of the streets that brought this art form 2 life. I

think the Neo Soul Movement has bridged that gap of Hip Hop

and real Soul music, and these Philly artists acknowledge

Prince's influence on that music.

By the way, much love and respect 2 Barry White who

passed 2day. Rest In Peace...



GEMINEYE

To finish off what Gemineye69 said - Amen!!!

Doesn't Jay-Z kinda look like "Beetle Juice" from the Howard Stern wackpack

http://www.jollydwarf.com...riends.htm

Reminds me of this thing I heard on some tv show, about how some pop acts always seem to have the 'in' producer.

They said that if you pay so much, you can say you got so-and-so producer to work with you. If you pay double you can say the so-and-so producer wanted to work with YOU!

Obviously Jay-Z ain't paying Prince enuff... "Oh yeah, Prince sayz he wants to do something with me..."

ncmason said:

The problem with that bone head modern day hip hop thinking is that Jay Z is not a legend. Prince is.

PRINCE DOES NOT NEED TALENTLESS HIP HOP GHETTO NEGROES

LaMont said:

You're a dick.

gemineye69 said:

I totally love hip hop and i like Jay Z sometimes, but I just don't think it would be a good combination and just for P to do something with Jay Z to get his name back in the spotlight would be so unlike him now, P only collabs with artists that he really is into, not just who is really popular right now

P was even quoted as saying in an interview with Chris Rockthat he has been asked by a lot of hip hop artist to collaborate or use some of his songs and he has turned the vast majority down because of their lyrics and stuff

gemineye69 said:

(Long but, bear with me...)

N.E.W.S Flash:
Dead On It was an anti-Rap/Hip Hop/Rapper song.

Lyrics...
See, the rapper's problem usually stem from being tone deaf

Pack the house then try 2 sing, there won't be no one left

Parking lots on fire, brothers peelin' outta town
They say in disgust, been singin' their guts
Rappin' done let us down (down, down)
We got 2 be dead on it
Dead on it

And the best line...
What does that have 2 do with the funk? Nothing!
But who's payin’ the bills?

Take that from a Funk Master.

And Days Of Wild was too...peep the lyrics:
Tennis shoes and caps, now that's phat
Up until the day another wanna laugh behind your back
Sayin' we all look the same, huh

God bless America, home of the brave
I'd rather dress 2 make a woman stare
I'm puttin' on somethin' that another won't dare

It's a freezer burn compared 2 cool
And if U still got loot, then who's the fool?
Everybody wanna take the stand
Mind your own motherfucker, let a man be a man
I can tear shit up y'all cuz that's my style
And these are the days of wild - hit me!

It's a total slam song on the herd mentality, the unoriginality and violence and fake tough attitudes in Rap/Hip Hop.

Now, the thing about Rock N Roll and Jazz, is that it was still based on musicianship. Their was a musicality. There was no hopping on a drum beat and letting that make it a song. No, they're were key changes, elements of real music. THat is why it progressed and gained acceptance and mass appeal.

It's always a typical excuse that's reached for on the shelf of "Hip Hop Defending" to use Rock N' Roll and Jazzs' history to excuse Hip Hop.

Look, sure in the early era of Rap/Hip Hop, it was cool, it was daring new style, it was spoke to a certain people, they needed heroes who understood them. They had for a moment developed into something educational, important.

But somewhere in the early to mid 90's, it went bad. Just like when a kid get's into a gang...yes, suddenly the promising cool little kid, boy or girl, gets initiated into a neighborhood gang. All hopes are lost.

Well, it happened like that to Rap/Hip Hop. Just when they had Public Enemy, the gang bangers come in and cancerize the medium.

Suddenly it's cool to "gang bang". That same subculture, a super negative, desctructive, low self esteem one, now are the heroes. Kids now act like gang bangers. ANd what do people like that do? Things with little regard to the safety or the lives of others. It's a fact.

When I saw that in Rap, I was saddened, disgusted. If you thought Purple Rain was sexist with the trash can scene, sheesh, this was worst! And it was based on reality. The drive by killings, the intimidations of neighborhoods, the gang hand sign flashings...I still shudder to think that this became "cool".

And of course on top of that, no musicianship. Just talkin', talkin' loud and sayin' NOTHING.

I think what happened with Rap in Prince's musical journey was that it turned into something to appeal to a new audience and then it evolved into trying to change it with songs like Love Sign and so forth. But you can't change a gang banger.

Anyway, enough of my observations, but I do think this is why their is a big devision of people that "hate" on rap and people that defend it. The realities of it are not experienced by the "Fortunate Ones", those that buy into it.

FlyingCloudPassenger said:

This is a brilliant essay.

N.E.W.S. FLASH:

I know that "Dead On It" was a dis on Hip Hop!!! I know this... but U have 2 understand that some in his circle think he recorded the song because he was threatened by what was going on in streets! He didn't want this thing called Hip Hop 2 come 2 rise because Prince knew it would take over. RunDMC and the Beastie Boys had crashed his party. What I was trying 2 point out is that the popular R&B music that was going on in the mid-to-late 80's was becoming so glossy and removed from what people on the street could relate 2. People trying 2 imitate the Minneapolis sound production-wise... even Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis were straying away from their roots and producing (or over-producing) hits that sounded nothing like the art Prince was trying 2 convey with the Sign of the Times album, MadHouse and The Family. That's why people on the streets moved 2 a new beat.

As far as why gangster rap evolved, NWA and groups like them in Southern California put what was going on in their lives on record because nobody was at the time!! They had no idea that being harrassed by police, black-on-black violence, and the lifestyles of living in South Central LA would strike a nerve. These things were created by Reagonomics and society. They already existed. Puting it on record was a way 2 tell America "This is what is going on. What are U gonna do about it?" 2Pac, Snoop Dogg, Notorious B.I.G. and (2day) Eminem are poets that speak for 2day's underclass, which outnumber the rest. And we wonder why this music sells... Hip Hop is not the culprit of our messed-up society. Unemployment, class separation, racism and other things do. This is why people like Eminem and 2pac become the voices of a generation.

By the way, U CAN change a gang-banger. Just ask Ice Cube, one of the founding fathers of NWA. He was the one who directed the LoveSign video. He was the one who starred as one of those lost soul in the movie "Boys In The Hood" and is now showing the lighter side of living in the hood with the "Friday" movies and "Barbershop". U can change a gang-banger... but U CAN'T change the conditions of living in the underclass, where the main goal is survival. As government cuts school funding, unemployment on the rise, and the economy is worsened, well... there U go.

As far as Hip Hop as a music is concerned, ask Quincy Jones if Dr. Dre understands musicians. Ask Quincy if the Neptunes can produce AND play music. Ask any rock band if The Roots are musicians. Ask Herbie Hancock if a DJ's turntables can be used as an instrument. Heck, even ask Prince himself!

GEMINEYE

gemineye69 said:

That was a real intelligent explanation of this whole topic. It goes to show that black artists can evolve in any light and they can take cues from the masters that came before them. I totally understand where you're coming from and it seems like with all the objections that's being going on on this particular topic, the mainstream/pop cats seems to know where the "real shit" comes from. Cats like Dr. Dre, Neptunes, and other household names that are responsible for what's charting currently have a sense of where of the foundation of there production comes from. Checking out some old Herbie Hancock, Quincy, James, Prince, and other evolutionary artists that have been able to "slip thru the cracks" with their brand of music; music which is often rooted in organics (live instrumentation and imaginative arrangements). Also, for the fact that some cats can start off on some bubble gum or something that was created with the intent to be commercial then flip their shit a little when they catch wind of some rare, obscure soul, funk, jazz, (even international flavors such as Indian, Brazillian) and other forms of music that's not same sounding. Like listen to some Hip-hop production and you listen to some old Herbie, Roy Ayers, and various other cats that are heavily sampled. You hear cats like Usher, Beyonce, and maybe a few other seriously mainstream cats doing basic r&b that know who Donny Hathaway, Shuggie Otis, and UK Soul's "Omar" is and they're name checking them in interview. Heads know what's up and once again I'd rather have some of these chart toppers paying attention to Prince and other true vanguard cats (Jimi, Sly, Shuggie Otis, many, many others) then them not. Once again, if it takes cats like The Roots to use a popular cat like Jay-Z who normally make joints to sell and create basic party music an outlet to get their sound heard, then I'm cool with it if it's dope - and please listen to the Jay-Z/ Roots live album carefully. It's actually dope; Much, much doper than what you will hear on Jay-Z albums! Imagine what if you can get those cats to do something different and creative. Like if Michael Jackson where to let a cat like Madlib produce his album like on some 21st century Quincy Jones style stuff (for those that are unaware, Madlib is a Hip-Hop producer turned multi-instrumentalist that has cooked up what could be called "Madhouse-style musings" over "A Tribe Called Quest" style production with jazz elements; and check out Yesterday New Quintet's album to see what I'm talking about!). Any real music head that reads this will totally know where I'm coming and I know exactly where Gemineye69 is coming from. Peace.

gemineye69 said:

- The point is...Neo Soul sucks. Most of these people think that you only need a programmed drum beat and some slick vocals and attitude to make great music. They all end up sounding the same. I dont see how Prince could ´uplift´ them. I would like to see Prince collaborating with real musicians, not money-makers.
But honestly, I am still waiting for the next Prince album. He evolved as a guitar player lately, but judging for what I heard of ´NEWS´ (East and West) I think he is too much into jamming and not concentrating too much on the songwriting itself. East and West are tight and great jamming, but they dont have a memorable riff or melody like ´Thieves in the temple´, ´17 (Penetration)´ or ´Six´.
Let´s wait and see.

Jay-z = one of the least talented "musicians" ever
Prince = one of the most talented musicians ever

hhhmmm...

Not all Neo Soul sucks... and if it sounds the same 2 some people it's because it is born out of a Philly sound that is put 2gether by artists that run in the same circle (Jill Scott, Common, Musiq, Badu, etc).

And it's safe 2 say that the use of drum machines have no baring on if the music is terrible or not. Music purists are always giving Hip Hop a bad time because of it's use of drum machines, but they hail Prince as a genius even though he used drum machines and keyboards all the time at the height of his 80's popularity. He always said that he could drum well, but he prefered a Linn machine or other drummers 2 carry a tune in a band or on record. I just read an interview in a magazine with the Neptunes. Chad would come up with a drum loop with a machine, and Pharell (a trained drummer) would play over the loop with live drums or percussion in real time. They'd then take elements of both and make a phat beat out of it. Just a different way 2 create. Come 2 think of it, wasn't one of their 1st remixes done 4 Prince, "The Greatest Romance" featuring Q-Tip?

If U look on the liner notes 4 D'Angelo's last album, ?uestlove (who drums 4 the Roots and co-produced the album) wrote that the album was like an un-official audition demo tape 4 Prince 2 C if they could collaborate or produce a project. And personally, I still can listen 2 both D'Angelo records and still think they aren't dated. I listen 2 "Emancipation", which came out around the same time, and I can't say the same thing. ?uestlove from the Roots is an exceptional drummer who's timing is that of a drum machine, but he can also swing if jazz fell in the groove. John Blackwell is awesome also, but he's more about flash than funk. Why Prince and ?uestlove haven't hooked up, who knows, but Prince recognizes...

"Talk 2 D'Angelo or better yet ?uestlove..." - Undisputed

By the way, that Jay Z/Roots collabo 4 MTV Unplugged was hot!

GEMINEYE

gemineye69 said:

- Yes, I agree with you. I have nothing against drum machines, WHEN they can be used with musicianship and creativity (and not only to sound ´hot´ and ´modern´), and a perfect example was the great programming of ´When doves cry´ that even Jeff Beck praised. I cant imagine WDC played by a drummer.
The point is: the artist is a MUSICIAN or not (in the deepest sense of the word). I am not talking about singing well or not. I am talking about someone who is talented and studied his/her instrument and that has ideas. I dont like D´angelo´s music too much, I think it´s too repetitive, but the guy IS a good musician. He writes his stuff, he produces it, he plays the instruments, he has respect for the great artists from the past. Same thing with Maxwell and Lenny.
It´s much more than those people that simply enter a studio and sing over a pre-programmed beat that the producer arranged. People like Jay Z or Destiny´s Child are just a product of the mega-corporations.
You can feel it in the air...it´s not something that I can explain with numbers or theory, but I think there IS an artistic difference between D´angelo and Jay Z...between Maxwell and Destiny´s Child...between Stevie Wonder and Britney Spears. I think time speaks for itself. The ´products´ tend to be forgotten soon. The true artists usually remain (I am not talking about hits)

gemineye69 said:

I totally agree with your statement. I would like them to

do a song together just to remind these young cats who

Prince is and what he is capable of doing.

The first thing they think of when they here Prince being

mentioned is that fag or he's played ( totally

disrespectful ) but if did a song with someone whom they

consider to be the sh--! and put it down like we know he

can I think it would open their eyes a little at what

Prince can do. I mean bottom line what can it hurt it

if anything it just may boost his popularity and I'm quite

sure whatever they were to put out it would meet with

Prince's standards first (as far as lyrical content).

gemineye69 said:

I do not believe that for a second. Prince was waay beyond it. I don't think he felt threatened. Not by what he was capable of doing and has done, no effing way. Prince was from the streets. But he just masterfully LEARNED and CARRIED what the original Funksters and Rockers did...



Nah, don't see that. Dead On It's about how the true musicians have to be dead on the beat, the Funk. The "It" is "The One". If you don't know what I'm talking about...well...I don't know...



Ha! Right! I was there and let me tell you, as much fun and cool them cats were/are, nope, NO threat to the peach and black true Funk of Camille.



I can see that, that's a good observation. Yes, I think that's when Pop as we know it NOW, started to sink or rise or whatever...



Okay, yes, I agree. They had a right to express themselves and it was what it was at the time, an alternative to the happy Rap, so to speak.




Hmmm, okay, right, tell the people through the new medium, more power to that, but, BUT, when they asked (North) America "This is what is going on. What are U gonna do about it?" - the answer was "Uuhh, I, I think we's going to buy more your music and cruise around to it with attitudes and we're going to say it's important, genius and we over here in Santa Monica, well, we's going to admire it, and help you get more deals and into movies, oh but, uh we ain't gonna go over there, naaah, we'll stay right here, in our "Fortunate" world"



The voices replaced good music. The soul needs music not soo much negativity and anger and hate.



Ho boy! Okay. Let me pull out the words that help certain gangbangers "change"...directed video, starred, movie, nope, he's still connected to where he's from, he's still connected to his community. He has to be. When you're a gangbanger or whatever, you's in it for the long haul. It's a lifer thing. Even if you attend Oscars, that person is still going to have the "pinta" of a cholo, crips, whatever. It's still there, it's what certain rappers still use to certain movies, either tough roles in science fiction movies, or cop movies or hood movies, etc.

Those in Hollywood see that, they DON'T want them to lose that gangbanger element in their personality, so therefore, they have to hang on to that. And that's the sad part. Because although they can survive and have a certain connection because of it, it's cool, but to influence other to leave it all behind or change COMPLETELY, forget it. It's like a double edged sword, it's connected, but it still encourages that severe negativity.

The part of being connected still with that community, is because, those people could still go back there and be respected and then hang with the West LA crowd and be respected. So let's say that person finds themselves in a situation that a West LA person would faint and callapse in, they can talk and survive themselves out of it. Cool.

The messed up part is that kids make heroes out of people like that, rather than people that inspire FREEING yourselves from THAT. Listen to Escape B-Side (long version if you can) of Glam Slam to relate that to Prince's message.

Also, ever notice why women gangbangers really haven't risen in entertainment? They've been reduced to just hoochies. Negativity.



QJ just agrees with stuff. Whatever. But ask him to choose between Miles and Eminem, guess who he gonna pick?! Ha!

Herbie rocked it man! And that was eeearly in the game, it was fabulous what he did, but he was rooted in...MUSIC!

Oh and I agree, that whole Neo Soul thing, it's kind of weak. I just don't feel it, it's so contrived and so "oh I'm cool, because of my leather jacket, oh and I sing too and look reeeally urban" Egh, I just don't know, nothing compelling, it's missing something. It's sooo Hip Hopish too, like it's afraid to TRULY FUNK. It's got to be safe, but cool. Whatever.

It's been summized perfectly in the Coka Cola commercial with all those "Neo Soul" acts. So soon they sold out.

oh yeah oh yeah...

FlyingCloudPassenger said:

- while I agree that hip hop reflects a disturbed society, I agree even more with Flying Cloud when he says that Herbie was rooted in MUSIC. The problem with the major stars today is that they have no roots, no substance. They just want to express themselves or make money. I think the Grunge bands (who reflected the problems of society, etc) could have been a lot better if they knew how to play, like Living Colour. Expressing yourself and saying ´fuck the system´ is easy. The hardest thing is to make it with musicianship and style.

Just because U R a rapper, doesn't mean U aren't rooted in music. There are musicians that sing, singers that are musicians, and there are musicians that can't sing and singers that can't play. People like 2 lump everything 2gether, but we all know that people like Prince are few and far between. 4 the most part, artists specialize in a craft. Aretha can sing her ass off, but can she play a mean guitar rift? Do U think Hendrix should have sang the Star Spangled Banner instead of playing it with his guitar? This thing called Hip Hop can be used as another tool 2 expand an artist's palete, as Miles Davis understood with his last album released b4 he passed. He understood that it was more than just noise, and believe me he probably would have hooked up with Jay Z if given more time on this earth.

Just like rock and country, there are folks who are in it 4 the money, and there are people who pay attention 2 the history of music and bring it 2 life. How do U think George Clinton, James Brown and Bootsy Collins have been able 2 survive? Hip Hop kept their names alive at first thru sampling AND later collaboration! And the key is appealing 2 our youth and educating them. Keeping them Dead On It and "on the one" (yes, I know exactly what that means musically).

The comparisons between Jazz, Rock & Roll and Hip Hop are not necessarily music-based, but how they both were created and who created them... urban America. These music forms rose from the streets with a lot of people totally bashing the art forms because they rose from the underclass, African-American society. Listening 2 the music meant that U were a sex-driven, drug-using outcast. It wasn't art, it was noise!! My, how things have changed, NOT!

Why should we not consider rappers apart of the music spectrum? Whether it is Eminem, or whether it is Lauryn Hill (who recorded one of the most important albums of our time), Hip Hop will continue 2 grow and collaborations will help it's maturity. It's amazing how something that started with only 2 turntables and a microphone grew in2 a major musical genre. Just accept it and enjoy the ride. 'Nuff said!

GEMIN

gemineye69 said:

- I think that rap itself is a legitimate musical style, no doubt about it. The problem is with people who do it.
They usually dont have musicianship. They care about writing lyrics and sampling the old masters. It´s different. Prince sampled some old people too, but he didnt base a whole song on a sample. These people sample because they CANT write music (melody, harmony). They only are able to write lyrics. Of course there are exceptions, like Lauryn Hill, Erykah Badu, who are very talented

Actually, in the beginning it started with sampling, with Public Enemy and the Bomb Squad being the masters of it. Nowadays, it's sequencing keyboards and drum machines with an ocassional sample or scratch thrown in. Dre, the Neptunes, even P. Ditty and his production crew have refrained from sampling in excess. Pro-Tools has revolutinized production techniques 4 Hip Hop AND other forms of music. It's more about finding a groove that has influenced them from back in the day and turning it i2 their own. It's the basis of Hip Hop. Schools didn't (and still don't) support teaching instruments and learning scales, so the streets used whatever technology they had. Now it's at another level, but the basis is still there. The best use musicians 2 help mold a song together. Check the vibe and do some research. Listen 2 what's going on in songs like the Oscar-winning "Lose Yourself", and there are players playing and rappers rapping.

GEMIN

ewm232003 said:

Prince already tried with Eve and Q-Tip and the results...in my opinion...were awful. Same with the collabs with Chuck D and Doug E. Fresh.

The Common collab...if you can call it that...was pointless in my opinion. It was like their way of showing mutual respect to each other. Prince has yet to do a callab with a rapper that I think is good. He could probably just do a rhthym guitar to a drum beat and a little solo and it would sound phat!

GustavoRibas said:

Ummm... I'm not sure I understand your understanding of the phrase: "Neo Soul." To me, that particular style is represented quite well by the musical stylings of Maxwell. Yet, he himself does not place his music into any one particular category. There's a reason why he doesn't win any awards: he can't be pigeon-holed... the industry can't categorize him as straight R&B, or Hip Hop, or whatever is heard on most "urban" radio stations these days. His style is a wonderfully ecclectic mix that works quite well. Unfortunately, most listeners are so used to their musical tastes being 'programmed' by network conglomerates, that they don't hear much "real" music, let alone have the opportunity to learn to appreciate it. All I know for certain is that I'm still playing his music, and as many of the mixes as I can find, on a daily basis.

Precisely, SuiteLady! What U need 2 do is invest in XM Satelite and check out The Flow station. It has all the new soul artists like Maxwell on their playlist and exclusive album cuts. I heard "Ascension" from the MTV Unplugged album on there just the other day. As I said B4, I work as a personality on a Top 40 station, but when I'm away from work it's all about XM. Regular radio is programmed 2 play the same crap and it limits people's idea of what's out there musically. So many channels, it helps U explore music like people did back in the day. By the way, maybe Prince should look at this avenue as another way 2 promote his music...

GEMIN

i personally think it would b good 4 his career if he did it bcus then more ppl wuld hear his music and mayb he culd come back as the huge hit he used 2 b (& is 2 me).

ILuvPrinc12 said:

- Well, I would like to see Prince´s fanbase increasing, and it would be great if more people heard his music. I became a fan in 93, after listening to ´The most beautiful girl´. Then I started discovering all his music, album by album. But I wish Prince had a hit in his terms (like ´When doves cry´), and it´s very hard to happen, because record companies dont trust him and prefer to invest their money in a more submissive artist.
I really wish Prince could do great songs again. I enjoy ´News´ and ´Xpectations´, but I hope his next album will be a kick ass album.