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Thread started 11/06/20 2:02am

funkbabyandthe
babysitters

the real reason for the veneration of w&l

Is this idea that they were hipping him to the 'right' influences
Ie more classic rock, more art, more lofty, basically 'higher' on our cultural scale
They helped him make stuff that wasnt just popular music, but art music
Listening to the vault songs, it's clear that sometimes that stuff plain sucked - do I need to hear him doing ELO sounding music like everybody want what they dont got? Or worse, godawful, nausestingly chipper jangle rock like big tall wall?
And I'm not going to deny they did a TON of great songs (usually where a middle ground between them could be found), but I do wonder if the reason they're seen as sooooo important, key, and as if it all went downhill after they left (rather than other factors) is because of this idea that without them he would just be making more regular stuff. But with them he would be aspiring to higher ideals.
To be clear, higher ideals is no bad thing.
But going full on whimsy, dreamy, kinda experimental art pop is no guaranteed perfect thing either (eg the long version of crystal ball, which shows how meandering it can really get, thank God for the edit of the song).
Yes, I really LOVE my disc of collaborative songs from them in the final period, but that's not necessarily more superior.
[Edited 11/6/20 2:03am]
[Edited 11/6/20 2:03am]
[Edited 11/6/20 2:05am]
[Edited 11/6/20 2:25am]
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Reply #1 posted 11/06/20 3:02am

jaawwnn

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They came from a very wealthy, very connected background, Prince did not. Their work with Prince made for an interesting clash of cultures and ideas and influences. They probably had a better idea of what was canon and how to be "tasteful". This is not necessarily a good thing, wealthy people dictating what is and is not good art is a scourge, Prince wasn't afraid of getting down and dirty and saying low art is as worthy as high art, which it is, but its likely they opened Prince's mind to stuff he wasn't aware of before.

(Now, I know that statement can be controversial and some people see it as very patronizing but what people forget when W&L are praised is that this is all Prince's vision we're talking about. It's not a slight on him or a sign of weakness that he wasn't aware of the entire canon of musical output aged 24 or whatever.)

Just some thoughts.

"I think people ought to know that we're anti-fascist, we're anti-violence, we're anti-racist and we're pro-creative. We're against ignorance."
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Reply #2 posted 11/06/20 3:20am

SexyMuthaF

He wanted his band to be a rainbow of race and sexuality. I saw a story where they were posing for a photo shoot and he physically placed Lisa's hand around Wendy's waist and said there.
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Reply #3 posted 11/06/20 3:43am

funkbabyandthe
babysitters

jaawwnn said:

They came from a very wealthy, very connected background, Prince did not. Their work with Prince made for an interesting clash of cultures and ideas and influences. They probably had a better idea of what was canon and how to be "tasteful". This is not necessarily a good thing, wealthy people dictating what is and is not good art is a scourge, Prince wasn't afraid of getting down and dirty and saying low art is as worthy as high art, which it is, but its likely they opened Prince's mind to stuff he wasn't aware of before.

(Now, I know that statement can be controversial and some people see it as very patronizing but what people forget when W&L are praised is that this is all Prince's vision we're talking about. It's not a slight on him or a sign of weakness that he wasn't aware of the entire canon of musical output aged 24 or whatever.)

Just some thoughts.




Yes. Class (and issues of taste) def comes into this. And yeah, I sometimes think ppl are like, wow, prince wasnt always into led zeppelin! (For example) Who gives a shit?! (Led zeppelin had an awful lead singer so I dont blame him).
[Edited 11/6/20 3:46am]
[Edited 11/6/20 4:11am]
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Reply #4 posted 11/06/20 4:20am

imprimis

I believe some have substituted their longing for 1984 Prince, with a mythology of Wendy & Lisa. It's some type of fixation and a defective coping mechanism.

.

[Edited 11/6/20 4:31am]

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Reply #5 posted 11/06/20 5:02am

funkbabyandthe
babysitters

Coping mechanism? A way to explain the decline? A way to imagine an alternative future where the peak continued for further years?
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Reply #6 posted 11/06/20 5:32am

wilmer

Wendy and Lisa enriched Prince's vision just as Dez and Eric. Some of these experiments yielded great tunes, others not so great. But Prince also hipped Wendy and Lisa to the funk. So, I guess it was a symbiotic relationship. However, Prince transcended this period, albeit with mixed results, while Wendy and Lisa, well, they sorta tanked
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Reply #7 posted 11/06/20 5:41am

jaawwnn

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wilmer said:

Wendy and Lisa enriched Prince's vision just as Dez and Eric. Some of these experiments yielded great tunes, others not so great. But Prince also hipped Wendy and Lisa to the funk. So, I guess it was a symbiotic relationship. However, Prince transcended this period, albeit with mixed results, while Wendy and Lisa, well, they sorta tanked

That sounds about right. I think W&L's solo work is excellent, and it did better on this side of the pond than in the US, but no doubt it was not a commercial success.

"I think people ought to know that we're anti-fascist, we're anti-violence, we're anti-racist and we're pro-creative. We're against ignorance."
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Reply #8 posted 11/06/20 6:21am

OldFriends4Sal
e

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Prince loved to create 'conflict' from the men in his camp to push himself and he gleamed from the women. Gayle Chapman, Lisa Coleman, Susan Moonsie, Wendy Melvoin, Vanity, Brenda Bennett, Jill Jones, Sheila E, Susannah Melvoin, Susan Rogers, Cat, etc he emersed himself in these women in ways that balanced his need for male 'conflict' comradere. Lisa Coleman and Wendy in particular were able to be 'nurtures' in was the other women were, because over all they were off limits sexually, and became like siblings.

.

I don't venerate them. I really appreciate them. As I do. Andre Cymone, Bobby Z, David Z, Dez Dickerson, Dr Fink, Gayle C, Brown Mark, Alan Leeds, Roy Bennett, Morris Day, Jesse Johnson, Jellybean Johnson, Monte Moore, Jimmy Jam, Terry Lewis, Jerome Benton, Vanity, Brenda Bennett, Susan Moonsie, Jill Jones, 'Apollonia' Big Chick, Susannah Melvoin, Jonathan Melvoin, David Coleman, Suzi Katayama, Novi Novog, Clare Fischer, Sheila E, Eddie M, Steph B, Juan Escovedo, Miko Weaver, Suzi Davis... St Paul Peterson, Eric Leeds, Atlanta Bliss, Levi Seacer Jr, Dale Alexander, Cat Glover, Boni Boyer, Coke Johnson Susan Rogers etc

.

Prince dedicated this song to Wendy & Lisa in 1997

In This Bed I Scream

Prince

To these walls I talk
Tellin' 'em what I wasn't strong enough 2 say
To these walls I talk
Tellin' 'em how I cried the day you went away

How did we ever lose communication?
How did we ever lose each other's sound?
Baby, if you wanna, we can fix the situation
Maybe we can stop the rain from coming down

Yeah

In this bed I scream
Lonely nights I lay awake thinking of you
And if I'm cursed with a dream
A thousand times I feel whatever I've put you through

Tell me, how're we gonna put this back together?
How're we gonna think with the same mind?
Knowing all along that life is so much better
Living and loving together all the time

Living and loving

In this bed I, in this bed I, in this bed I scream

In this car I drive
I'm looking for the road that leads back to the...

In this car I drive
I'm looking for the road that leads back to the soul we shared
With my very life
I'd gladly be the body upon the cross we bear (Cross we bear)

How did we ever lose communication? (How did we?)
How did we ever lose each other's sound? (I don't know)
Baby, if you wanna, we can fix the situation
Maybe we can stop the rain from coming down

Maybe we can't, maybe we can
Stop the rain, stop the rain

In this bed I, in this bed I, in this bed I scream
I scream

In this bed I scream

#ALBUMSSTILLMATTER
https://prince.org/msg/7/464433 9.24.2020
if you ever try the lotus position
Try it while you're being strangled
Do U understand what I'm saying?
#IDEFINEME
It’s unloving and selfish to be easily offended
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Reply #9 posted 11/06/20 12:07pm

nayroo2002

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Is this about 'Under The Cherry Moon"?

[Edited 11/6/20 12:14pm]

"Whatever skin Ur in
we all need 2 b friends"
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Reply #10 posted 11/06/20 12:09pm

nayroo2002

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SexyMuthaF said:

He wanted his band to be a rainbow of race and sexuality. I saw a story where they were posing for a photo shoot and he physically placed Lisa's hand around Wendy's waist and said there.

Is this that poster inside the 'Purple Rain' record?

"Whatever skin Ur in
we all need 2 b friends"
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Reply #11 posted 11/06/20 12:13pm

nayroo2002

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wilmer said:

Wendy and Lisa enriched Prince's vision just as Dez and Eric. Some of these experiments yielded great tunes, others not so great. But Prince also hipped Wendy and Lisa to the funk. So, I guess it was a symbiotic relationship. However, Prince transcended this period, albeit with mixed results, while Wendy and Lisa, well, they sorta tanked

Is this that "Illusion, Coma, Pimp & Circumstance" story?

"Whatever skin Ur in
we all need 2 b friends"
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Reply #12 posted 11/07/20 6:52am

SexyMuthaF

Yes the PR poster with wendy and lisa standing in front of the spiral staircase.
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Reply #13 posted 11/07/20 9:02am

funkbabyandthe
babysitters

could you post it? or a link to it?

i was looking for some good pics of prince, with W & L but only really found the rolling stone interview pics.

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Reply #14 posted 11/08/20 5:29am

violetcrush

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

could you post it? or a link to it?

i was looking for some good pics of prince, with W & L but only really found the rolling stone interview pics.

Album Prince and the Revolution: Live, Prince | Qobuz: download and  streaming in high quality

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Reply #15 posted 11/08/20 5:30am

violetcrush

violetcrush said:

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

could you post it? or a link to it?

i was looking for some good pics of prince, with W & L but only really found the rolling stone interview pics.

Album Prince and the Revolution: Live, Prince | Qobuz: download and  streaming in high quality

Lisa Coleman on the legend that was Prince | RNZ

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Reply #16 posted 11/08/20 6:53am

violetcrush

purple_14 | Prince and the revolution, Prince purple rain, Prince rogers  nelson

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Reply #17 posted 11/08/20 6:54am

violetcrush

Photos and videos by Housequake (@housequakecom) | Prince and the revolution,  Prince musician, Prince

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Reply #18 posted 11/08/20 6:57am

violetcrush

Guitarist Wendy Melvoin Asks 'Would Prince Like That?'

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Reply #19 posted 11/08/20 11:54am

SexyMuthaF

This is the one with hand around waist. I don't know how to insert just the pic.

https://news.amomama.com/...lvoin.html
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Reply #20 posted 11/08/20 1:18pm

strongoxman1

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Reply #21 posted 11/15/20 9:40am

SexyMuthaF

Thank you!
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Reply #22 posted 11/16/20 2:38pm

Genesia

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funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

jaawwnn said:

They came from a very wealthy, very connected background, Prince did not. Their work with Prince made for an interesting clash of cultures and ideas and influences. They probably had a better idea of what was canon and how to be "tasteful". This is not necessarily a good thing, wealthy people dictating what is and is not good art is a scourge, Prince wasn't afraid of getting down and dirty and saying low art is as worthy as high art, which it is, but its likely they opened Prince's mind to stuff he wasn't aware of before.

(Now, I know that statement can be controversial and some people see it as very patronizing but what people forget when W&L are praised is that this is all Prince's vision we're talking about. It's not a slight on him or a sign of weakness that he wasn't aware of the entire canon of musical output aged 24 or whatever.)

Just some thoughts.

Yes. Class (and issues of taste) def comes into this. And yeah, I sometimes think ppl are like, wow, prince wasnt always into led zeppelin! (For example) Who gives a shit?! (Led zeppelin had an awful lead singer so I dont blame him).


What the hell are you even babbling about? Do you know how huge Led Zeppelin was in the early 70s (when Prince was in junior high and high school)? I guarandamntee you he was into Led Zeppelin - just like everyone else of his time/generation. He didn't make Whole Lotta Love a staple (even including it on Live at the Aladdin and Indigo Nights) because he hated them. And, yes - Robert Plant sang it better than Prince. That's right - I said it.

We don’t mourn artists because we knew them. We mourn them because they helped us know ourselves.
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Reply #23 posted 11/17/20 5:33am

OldFriends4Sal
e

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moderator

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

jaawwnn said:

They came from a very wealthy, very connected background, Prince did not. Their work with Prince made for an interesting clash of cultures and ideas and influences. They probably had a better idea of what was canon and how to be "tasteful". This is not necessarily a good thing, wealthy people dictating what is and is not good art is a scourge, Prince wasn't afraid of getting down and dirty and saying low art is as worthy as high art, which it is, but its likely they opened Prince's mind to stuff he wasn't aware of before.

(Now, I know that statement can be controversial and some people see it as very patronizing but what people forget when W&L are praised is that this is all Prince's vision we're talking about. It's not a slight on him or a sign of weakness that he wasn't aware of the entire canon of musical output aged 24 or whatever.)

Just some thoughts.

Yes. Class (and issues of taste) def comes into this. And yeah, I sometimes think ppl are like, wow, prince wasnt always into led zeppelin! (For example) Who gives a shit?! (Led zeppelin had an awful lead singer so I dont blame him). [Edited 11/6/20 3:46am] [Edited 11/6/20 4:11am]


ROLLING STONE (1985) PRINCE TALKS BY NEAL KARLEN

How do you feel about people calling the record "psychedelic"?
I don't mind that, because that was the only periodin recent history that delivered songs and colors.Led Zeppelin, for example, would make you feel differentlyon each song.

#ALBUMSSTILLMATTER
https://prince.org/msg/7/464433 9.24.2020
if you ever try the lotus position
Try it while you're being strangled
Do U understand what I'm saying?
#IDEFINEME
It’s unloving and selfish to be easily offended
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Reply #24 posted 11/18/20 4:50pm

Spanky

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violetcrush said:

violetcrush said:

Album Prince and the Revolution: Live, Prince | Qobuz: download and  streaming in high quality

Lisa Coleman on the legend that was Prince | RNZ

Wendy is so badass!

I wish u heaven
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Reply #25 posted 11/19/20 9:29am

OldFriends4Sal
e

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moderator

Wow, they all look alike here

From Prince to Bobby Z, Brown Mark and Wendy from Wendy to Fink and Lisa

Spanky said:

violetcrush said:

Lisa Coleman on the legend that was Prince | RNZ

Wendy is so badass!

#ALBUMSSTILLMATTER
https://prince.org/msg/7/464433 9.24.2020
if you ever try the lotus position
Try it while you're being strangled
Do U understand what I'm saying?
#IDEFINEME
It’s unloving and selfish to be easily offended
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Reply #26 posted 11/20/20 9:25am

funkbabyandthe
babysitters

OldFriends4Sale said:



funkbabyandthebabysitters said:


jaawwnn said:

They came from a very wealthy, very connected background, Prince did not. Their work with Prince made for an interesting clash of cultures and ideas and influences. They probably had a better idea of what was canon and how to be "tasteful". This is not necessarily a good thing, wealthy people dictating what is and is not good art is a scourge, Prince wasn't afraid of getting down and dirty and saying low art is as worthy as high art, which it is, but its likely they opened Prince's mind to stuff he wasn't aware of before.

(Now, I know that statement can be controversial and some people see it as very patronizing but what people forget when W&L are praised is that this is all Prince's vision we're talking about. It's not a slight on him or a sign of weakness that he wasn't aware of the entire canon of musical output aged 24 or whatever.)

Just some thoughts.




Yes. Class (and issues of taste) def comes into this. And yeah, I sometimes think ppl are like, wow, prince wasnt always into led zeppelin! (For example) Who gives a shit?! (Led zeppelin had an awful lead singer so I dont blame him). [Edited 11/6/20 3:46am] [Edited 11/6/20 4:11am]


ROLLING STONE (1985) PRINCE TALKS BY NEAL KARLEN

How do you feel about people calling the record "psychedelic"?
I don't mind that, because that was the only periodin recent history that delivered songs and colors.Led Zeppelin, for example, would make you feel differentlyon each song.



apparently susanna got him into led zeppelin
Either way, were led zeppelin really psychedelic? I never thought of them as being that so prince was wrong there :p
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Reply #27 posted 11/20/20 10:42am

Genesia

avatar

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

OldFriends4Sale said:


ROLLING STONE (1985) PRINCE TALKS BY NEAL KARLEN

How do you feel about people calling the record "psychedelic"?
I don't mind that, because that was the only periodin recent history that delivered songs and colors.Led Zeppelin, for example, would make you feel differentlyon each song.

apparently susanna got him into led zeppelin Either way, were led zeppelin really psychedelic? I never thought of them as being that so prince was wrong there :p


Source?

We don’t mourn artists because we knew them. We mourn them because they helped us know ourselves.
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Reply #28 posted 11/20/20 12:25pm

OldFriends4Sal
e

avatar

moderator

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

OldFriends4Sale said:


ROLLING STONE (1985) PRINCE TALKS BY NEAL KARLEN

How do you feel about people calling the record "psychedelic"?
I don't mind that, because that was the only periodin recent history that delivered songs and colors.Led Zeppelin, for example, would make you feel differentlyon each song.

apparently susanna got him into led zeppelin Either way, were led zeppelin really psychedelic? I never thought of them as being that so prince was wrong there :p

LOL

yeah they were psychedelic

Prince wasn't wrong and they made him feel differently on each song

#ALBUMSSTILLMATTER
https://prince.org/msg/7/464433 9.24.2020
if you ever try the lotus position
Try it while you're being strangled
Do U understand what I'm saying?
#IDEFINEME
It’s unloving and selfish to be easily offended
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Reply #29 posted 11/23/20 2:41am

funkbabyandthe
babysitters

does anyone know if the song dream factory features wendy and lisa? i know on princevault it says its only susannah on backing vocals, but i wondered if they were involved at all. it seems like something they would be, to me, it just sounds like they were involved.

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