violetcrush said:

ladygirl99 said:

Even with the constant changing of music trends, US still remains segregrate by music and other things, hon. You know black charts now called urban/hip hop radio charts (that target primary black audiences) and top mainstream and pop radio charts (code for targeting white audiences). In other words whether it was 1987 or 2019, despite some progress, artists are still being boxed based on their race as very few black artists able to crossover. Don't believe me ask Lenny Kravitz.. That poor guy, despite being successful, still had dealt with radio heads and radio station executives tried to box him as a black artist even though his style of music was mixture of rock and pop and slow jams and not to mention he was half black. I heard he even tours in Europe more these days. Ask Tina Turner as well she struggled too as record company tried to place her as a black artist and yet some black people rejected her sound as heck I knew some black folks thought her music was too white and didn't care for her solo stuff. And also black artists who didn't fit in a box did better in other countries like Japan and Europe than here in the states. Like I stated before the reason why Jill did better in Europe was beacuse from what I heard Europeans tend to embrace all forms of music and had more diversity taste. Also, I met white people from Europe and Canada and Australia and they were easier to be friends with as they accept me more of my human side and my complicated side and not just put me into a black chick box based on what they saw on TV. Not saying those countries are free of racism of course. Even Prince's sister Tyka acknowledge in an interview with BBC that Prince's music was more appreciated in Europe and they accept him the way he was.

Why else Prince gotten frustrated of being known as a black artist? That doesn't mean he was shame of his blackness, he did diversity forms of music and he hated how record execs and fans too pigholened him into just an RB artist. That is why Jill didn't do well here in the USA because not only Paisley Park's poor but US radio executives didn't know what to do with her. Even someone else mentioned on here as Jill stated earlier in her interviews that Prince tried to push her with the black audience when she was opening for Jody Watley and when she performed the black crowd just stand there.

Don't get me started with Wendy and Lisa as I am aware you are a big fan of theirs just as much I am too. The music executives didn't knew what to do with them either and they faced the same situation and they are mainly white chicks. I think the record executives want them to be more black per Lisa lol because they came from Prince and those record executives see Prince as a black artist despite Prince fought against that label until he died.

Yeah I agree I love seeing multiracial families. If I had a biracial child I would raise my child to appreciate all of their hertiages and reject the one drop rule.

I'm fully aware of the history with segregated music here in the US, "hon" I was watching all of the awards shows back then when they had the "favorite black..." category. Prince was planning to "cross over" from the time he began his career. Chris Moon stated that when he began helping Prince go after a record deal Prince said to him, "don't make me black". As soon as he got the first two albums done he did his 180 turn into Dirty Mind and never looked back. However, Prince was not touring in Europe (with the exception of a few shows in 1981), so the US fans and radio stations were helping him to climb the charts - with both his earlier R&B music as well as his rock/synth music starting with DM. He was accumulating a huge fan base here.

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I'm sure Tina had her struggles, however, she carved out quite a successful career for herself here in the US. She even had a HUGE resurgence in the 80's - same year as Prince's Purple Rain explosion. Not sure what Lenny K has to complain about. He was HUGE in the 90's - both white and black audiences loved him. Mr Cab Driver, I Want To Fly Away and American Woman were big hits here, and MTV played him constantly.

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The issue with Wendy and Lisa was not that the execs wanted them to be more "black" - it had nothing to do with them being white chicks. They wanted them to be "sexy" performers and wear skimpy outfits a la the Mary Jane Girls - that comparison was actually discussed in one of their interviews several years ago. So for them it was more the issue of being female but not wanting to be "Carmen Elektra" or even Madonna on stage. They just wanted to be able to play their music without dealing with that persona.

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Look, I completely agree on the segregation issues with the black and white music stations/awards etc back in the day. However, it was another unfortunate factor of the racial climate. I just don't think that is the reason that Jill Jones's album did not sell here.

Facts-Lisa stated in interview that the record company was asking them where was the chorus where is the black sound because a lot of their songs weren't R&B radio friendly or Prince-friendly. I am sure you know they tried to distance themselves from doing the Prince sound especially during their debut. I mentioned the white chicks because the record executives thought Wendy and Lisa didn't sound like a white artist that was popular around that time and they got the same treatment as black artists who didn't fix in a box either like Prince, Lenny Kravitz, etc. I am not saying that the record company didn't want them to be more sexy and I read those articles too but they also struggled because their music wasn't radio-friendly. I am kind of confused when you said that doesn't have anything to do with them being white chicks. Don't believe me ask Lisa or Renata.

Facts-Jill stated numerous times her being biracial (along with Prince not promoting and pretty much gave up the album) that doesn't do solely black songs has to do with her not succeeding in the US. I follow Jill on Facebook too and she stated this in the past. She constantly trashed other record companies and their practices with racism and stereotyping as she can related to this. Don't believe me join her official and fan page twitter/Facebook page. She had been vocal about her experiences with being a label artist and struggled as being a biracial who didn't always did black friendly songs.

Oky if you are schooled about how segregrated radio charts and stations are still to this day, then you shouldn't minimized the affects like you had sort of been doing. You don't know the huge impact of self esteem when a black woman artist who can do rock solos is told by some racist record head that you should stick to R&B or some person heard her guitar skills and wanted her to sound black or discourage her to play guitar. White women tend to do better in the industry and white ladies has more diversity artists to look up to llike for every Teena Marie or Adele or Lisa Standfield there is Joan Jett and Pat Benatar and Lita Ford and Taylor Swift or Madanna and Lady Gaga and now Adriana Grande and Demi Lovato. If a black woman wants to be the next Ozzy Osborne or Carrie Underwood or does anything outside of urban sound, all hell break loose from white supremists and black extremists yet it was black woman that started rock and roll.

And also just because Tina Turner and Lenny Kravitz have success (and they worked extreme hard to prove themselves) that doesn't mean they struggled to take serious as they stated in their interviews if you have time to google so once again your dismissive attitude toward their struggles being a POC artist color sucks badly. SMH. So please as a white woman in the future, stop dismissing people of color's challenges becuase that can get you into trouble in real life. I am sure you as a woman would not be very happy if a man would downplay the sexism that you might experienced, would you? I seen white people do this and that cost their reputations or even jobs.

Like an old saying, You can't teach the unlearn.

ladygirl99 said:

violetcrush said:

I'm fully aware of the history with segregated music here in the US, "hon" I was watching all of the awards shows back then when they had the "favorite black..." category. Prince was planning to "cross over" from the time he began his career. Chris Moon stated that when he began helping Prince go after a record deal Prince said to him, "don't make me black". As soon as he got the first two albums done he did his 180 turn into Dirty Mind and never looked back. However, Prince was not touring in Europe (with the exception of a few shows in 1981), so the US fans and radio stations were helping him to climb the charts - with both his earlier R&B music as well as his rock/synth music starting with DM. He was accumulating a huge fan base here.

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I'm sure Tina had her struggles, however, she carved out quite a successful career for herself here in the US. She even had a HUGE resurgence in the 80's - same year as Prince's Purple Rain explosion. Not sure what Lenny K has to complain about. He was HUGE in the 90's - both white and black audiences loved him. Mr Cab Driver, I Want To Fly Away and American Woman were big hits here, and MTV played him constantly.

*

The issue with Wendy and Lisa was not that the execs wanted them to be more "black" - it had nothing to do with them being white chicks. They wanted them to be "sexy" performers and wear skimpy outfits a la the Mary Jane Girls - that comparison was actually discussed in one of their interviews several years ago. So for them it was more the issue of being female but not wanting to be "Carmen Elektra" or even Madonna on stage. They just wanted to be able to play their music without dealing with that persona.

*

Look, I completely agree on the segregation issues with the black and white music stations/awards etc back in the day. However, it was another unfortunate factor of the racial climate. I just don't think that is the reason that Jill Jones's album did not sell here.

Facts-Lisa stated in interview that the record company was asking them where was the chorus where is the black sound because a lot of their songs weren't R&B radio friendly or Prince-friendly. I am sure you know they tried to distance themselves from doing the Prince sound especially during their debut. I mentioned the white chicks because the record executives thought Wendy and Lisa didn't sound like a white artist that was popular around that time and they got the same treatment as black artists who didn't fix in a box either like Prince, Lenny Kravitz, etc. I am not saying that the record company didn't want them to be more sexy and I read those articles too but they also struggled because their music wasn't radio-friendly. I am kind of confused when you said that doesn't have anything to do with them being white chicks. Don't believe me ask Lisa or Renata.

Facts-Jill stated numerous times her being biracial (along with Prince not promoting and pretty much gave up the album) that doesn't do solely black songs has to do with her not succeeding in the US. I follow Jill on Facebook too and she stated this in the past. She constantly trashed other record companies and their practices with racism and stereotyping as she can related to this. Don't believe me join her official and fan page twitter/Facebook page. She had been vocal about her experiences with being a label artist and struggled as being a biracial who didn't always did black friendly songs.

Oky if you are schooled about how segregrated radio charts and stations are still to this day, then you shouldn't minimized the affects like you had sort of been doing. You don't know the huge impact of self esteem when a black woman artist who can do rock solos is told by some racist record head that you should stick to R&B or some person heard her guitar skills and wanted her to sound black or discourage her to play guitar. White women tend to do better in the industry and white ladies has more diversity artists to look up to llike for every Teena Marie or Adele or Lisa Standfield there is Joan Jett and Pat Benatar and Lita Ford and Taylor Swift or Madanna and Lady Gaga and now Adriana Grande and Demi Lovato. If a black woman wants to be the next Ozzy Osborne or Carrie Underwood or does anything outside of urban sound, all hell break loose from white supremists and black extremists yet it was black woman that started rock and roll.

And also just because Tina Turner and Lenny Kravitz have success (and they worked extreme hard to prove themselves) that doesn't mean they struggled to take serious as they stated in their interviews if you have time to google so once again your dismissive attitude toward their struggles being a POC artist color sucks badly. SMH. So please as a white woman in the future, stop dismissing people of color's challenges becuase that can get you into trouble in real life. I am sure you as a woman would not be very happy if a man would downplay the sexism that you might experienced, would you? I seen white people do this and that cost their reputations or even jobs.

Like an old saying, You can't teach the unlearn.

You need to step back a bit here. Please do not accuse me of dismissing their challenges. I NEVER stated that Tina Turner did not struggle - both personally and professionally, especially in her early career. Just being under the abusive control of Ike Turner was plenty enough of a struggle - and then she was a black woman trying to make it on her own at a certain point. My point with Tina is that she was still able to become a worldwide success and is now conisdered an Icon:

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From Wiki:

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"One of the world's best-selling recording ar...f all time, she has been referred to as The Queen of Rock 'n' Roll and has sold more than 200 million records worldwide to date. Turner is noted for her energetic stage presence, powerful vocals, career longevity, and trademark legs."

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"Turner has won 12 Grammy Awards; those awards include eight competitive awards, three Grammy Hall of Fame awards, and a Grammy Lifetime Achievement Award. Rolling Stoneranked Turner 63rd on its list of the 100 greatest artists of all time and 17th on its list of the 100 greatest singers of all time. Turner has her own stars on the Hollywood Walk of Fameand on the St. Louis Walk of Fame. In 1991, Turner was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame with Ike Turner. She was a 2005 recipient of the Kennedy Center Honors."

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As I also stated with Lenny Kravitz - he has had major success. He also came from a more priviledged backround which gave him access to the music and television industries at an early age. Yes, he initially was told by record labels that his music didn't quite "fit" into R&B or Rock, and in fairness, his style WAS to combine both sounds which was unique at that time. Kravitz's Father paid for the studio time in order for Lenny and engineer Henry Hirsch to record his first album. Through connections with Lisa Bonet and his Mother's show The Jefferson's he met Stephen Elvis Smith and asked him to help him find a record deal. He had 5 labels fighting to sign him in 1989. By 1991, he was producing and/or co-writing for other artists, and he released his best selling album, and has had multiple successful releases and collaborations since then.

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I'm sorry, but in my opinion, Lenny was given many good opportunities - even early on in his career in order to be successful that most do not have whether black or white. Regardless of that, he was/is very talented and was able to create a rock/R&B/soul sound that appealed to all races.

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Wendy and Lisa - their first album was done the way THEY wanted to do it. They were expressing their own sound and writing songs to showcase their style. They also wrote songs about the breakup of the band and the conflict with Prince. Yes, the record execs wanted them to keep the pop/funk sound which is why their second album follows more along that trend. Fruit At The Bottom is absolutely a pop/funk album with a few jazzy/alternative sounding songs mixed in. Lolly Lolly (which Prince also re-mixed), Fruit At The Bottom, Are You My Baby, and Satisfaction (co-written by Jesse Johnson) are all funk sounding songs. The songs were radio-friendly at that time, however, the labels were not marketing them the right way. Eroica was/is a beautiful album too, and should have been playing on progressive radio stations back then. Most of those songs still hold up today and don't sound stuck in the "80's". That's the album where they finally said "screw you" to the label and recorded how they wanted to sound. Songs like Mother Of Pearl, Stay, I Think It Was December, etc would have done very well on the college radio stations. Their label just screwed up or didn't know any better with the marketing.

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Jill Jones - Yes, I KNOW all of the things Jill has said regarding why her album didn't sell. Along with her comments about the race issue she has ALSO said that the timing was off, and talked about how she didn't want to "shake her ass" while performing, so the crowd didn't respond to her. I'm sure there are a myriad of reasons for its lack of success, including the racial conflict, but I still think it was released 3-4 years too late.

violetcrush said:

ladygirl99 said:

Facts-Lisa stated in interview that the record company was asking them where was the chorus where is the black sound because a lot of their songs weren't R&B radio friendly or Prince-friendly. I am sure you know they tried to distance themselves from doing the Prince sound especially during their debut. I mentioned the white chicks because the record executives thought Wendy and Lisa didn't sound like a white artist that was popular around that time and they got the same treatment as black artists who didn't fix in a box either like Prince, Lenny Kravitz, etc. I am not saying that the record company didn't want them to be more sexy and I read those articles too but they also struggled because their music wasn't radio-friendly. I am kind of confused when you said that doesn't have anything to do with them being white chicks. Don't believe me ask Lisa or Renata.

Facts-Jill stated numerous times her being biracial (along with Prince not promoting and pretty much gave up the album) that doesn't do solely black songs has to do with her not succeeding in the US. I follow Jill on Facebook too and she stated this in the past. She constantly trashed other record companies and their practices with racism and stereotyping as she can related to this. Don't believe me join her official and fan page twitter/Facebook page. She had been vocal about her experiences with being a label artist and struggled as being a biracial who didn't always did black friendly songs.

Oky if you are schooled about how segregrated radio charts and stations are still to this day, then you shouldn't minimized the affects like you had sort of been doing. You don't know the huge impact of self esteem when a black woman artist who can do rock solos is told by some racist record head that you should stick to R&B or some person heard her guitar skills and wanted her to sound black or discourage her to play guitar. White women tend to do better in the industry and white ladies has more diversity artists to look up to llike for every Teena Marie or Adele or Lisa Standfield there is Joan Jett and Pat Benatar and Lita Ford and Taylor Swift or Madanna and Lady Gaga and now Adriana Grande and Demi Lovato. If a black woman wants to be the next Ozzy Osborne or Carrie Underwood or does anything outside of urban sound, all hell break loose from white supremists and black extremists yet it was black woman that started rock and roll.

And also just because Tina Turner and Lenny Kravitz have success (and they worked extreme hard to prove themselves) that doesn't mean they struggled to take serious as they stated in their interviews if you have time to google so once again your dismissive attitude toward their struggles being a POC artist color sucks badly. SMH. So please as a white woman in the future, stop dismissing people of color's challenges becuase that can get you into trouble in real life. I am sure you as a woman would not be very happy if a man would downplay the sexism that you might experienced, would you? I seen white people do this and that cost their reputations or even jobs.

Like an old saying, You can't teach the unlearn.

You need to step back a bit here. Please do not accuse me of dismissing their challenges. I NEVER stated that Tina Turner did not struggle - both personally and professionally, especially in her early career. Just being under the abusive control of Ike Turner was plenty enough of a struggle - and then she was a black woman trying to make it on her own at a certain point. My point with Tina is that she was still able to become a worldwide success and is now conisdered an Icon:

*

From Wiki:

*

"One of the world's best-selling recording ar...f all time, she has been referred to as The Queen of Rock 'n' Roll and has sold more than 200 million records worldwide to date. Turner is noted for her energetic stage presence, powerful vocals, career longevity, and trademark legs."

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"Turner has won 12 Grammy Awards; those awards include eight competitive awards, three Grammy Hall of Fame awards, and a Grammy Lifetime Achievement Award. Rolling Stoneranked Turner 63rd on its list of the 100 greatest artists of all time and 17th on its list of the 100 greatest singers of all time. Turner has her own stars on the Hollywood Walk of Fameand on the St. Louis Walk of Fame. In 1991, Turner was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame with Ike Turner. She was a 2005 recipient of the Kennedy Center Honors."

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As I also stated with Lenny Kravitz - he has had major success. He also came from a more priviledged backround which gave him access to the music and television industries at an early age. Yes, he initially was told by record labels that his music didn't quite "fit" into R&B or Rock, and in fairness, his style WAS to combine both sounds which was unique at that time. Kravitz's Father paid for the studio time in order for Lenny and engineer Henry Hirsch to record his first album. Through connections with Lisa Bonet and his Mother's show The Jefferson's he met Stephen Elvis Smith and asked him to help him find a record deal. He had 5 labels fighting to sign him in 1989. By 1991, he was producing and/or co-writing for other artists, and he released his best selling album, and has had multiple successful releases and collaborations since then.

*

I'm sorry, but in my opinion, Lenny was given many good opportunities - even early on in his career in order to be successful that most do not have whether black or white. Regardless of that, he was/is very talented and was able to create a rock/R&B/soul sound that appealed to all races.

*

Wendy and Lisa - their first album was done the way THEY wanted to do it. They were expressing their own sound and writing songs to showcase their style. They also wrote songs about the breakup of the band and the conflict with Prince. Yes, the record execs wanted them to keep the pop/funk sound which is why their second album follows more along that trend. Fruit At The Bottom is absolutely a pop/funk album with a few jazzy/alternative sounding songs mixed in. Lolly Lolly (which Prince also re-mixed), Fruit At The Bottom, Are You My Baby, and Satisfaction (co-written by Jesse Johnson) are all funk sounding songs. The songs were radio-friendly at that time, however, the labels were not marketing them the right way. Eroica was/is a beautiful album too, and should have been playing on progressive radio stations back then. Most of those songs still hold up today and don't sound stuck in the "80's". That's the album where they finally said "screw you" to the label and recorded how they wanted to sound. Songs like Mother Of Pearl, Stay, I Think It Was December, etc would have done very well on the college radio stations. Their label just screwed up or didn't know any better with the marketing.

*

Jill Jones - Yes, I KNOW all of the things Jill has said regarding why her album didn't sell. Along with her comments about the race issue she has ALSO said that the timing was off, and talked about how she didn't want to "shake her ass" while performing, so the crowd didn't respond to her. I'm sure there are a myriad of reasons for its lack of success, including the racial conflict, but I still think it was released 3-4 years too late.

SMH, Once again you are being dismissive and downplay the struggles of people of color including the ones who made it. Okay true that Lenny grew up in upper middle class background but that doesn't protect him from experience racism even after success because of him and his rich multicultural family (aka Roxie Roker and Sly Kravitz). Yes Tina was successful but she still had to struggle even after success because she stated she was a black woman who didn't do solely R&B and the industry continue to put her into boxes here in the states especially when it comes to radio and award show categories. Lenny and Tina were successful because they had a good marketing team that knew how to promote them and was open-minded and not treat them like a stereotype. Being successful as a person of color still doesn't shield ongoing racism but yes it has its privileges if you are rich (see Jussie Smollett). Oh, by the way Lenny said in an interview he had a Miami police pulled a gun on him a few years ago while he was jogging in a nice neighborhood so I guess him having a white daddy and being rich and superstar didn’t protected him from racism or being stop by cops for mistaken identity. And even with success, he still had record executives trying to box him in as a black artist even though majority of his songs weren’t black sounding friendly. It appears to be according to your logic, They have successes and are rich, so I guess racism is not an issue for them.”

I already mentioned that Wendy and Lisa's US label struggled to support them because they didn't know what to do with them and that because Lisa stated in interview race/US music segregation played a big role why their albums didn’t sell very well in the states so why are we still debating about this subject? BTW Wendy and Lisa did better in Europe because once again the Europeans are not as segregated about their music taste like it is here in the US. Even online over the years outside of US gay fans, I see more fans from European who show some props toward them. I always believed their fanbase were primary US gay fans and Europeans.

One more time: Wendy and Lisa's album did not do well in the US because they were hippie white women that appreciated both black culture and white hippie culture (just like me) and added that to their sound and the label had hard time marketing them, whose album didn’t fallen into black or white music category to the point their label wanted them to be white women to do black sound or to be more like Prince which Wendy and Lisa had to compromise or refuse to do. And because Jill was a biracial woman (even though she considered herself to be black which I respect that), her debut album didn’t do well either because it wasn’t a typical black or white album that Warner Bros were hoping for. Yes Jill and Wendy and Lisa didn't want to be sex appeal but that is secondary reasons. Race is the primary reason for their limited success here in the States and it isn’t my fault that some white people continues to act chicken shit of not admit that race sometimes is the reason or don’t want to debate about it, or refuse to address ‘the elephant’. What I loved about Wendy and Lisa is they are the white people who had no problem discuss about racism and willing to listen to other struggles and I can easily talk to without them acting dismissive and condescending (along with Bobby Z and Matt Fink they sure understand prejudice since they are both Jewish and particularly Bobby Z saw it firsthand with Prince).

Sigh. Now normally I wouldn't do this of posting links to back up my claims on this site because I feel if that person can debate with others just to win at all cost then they can do their own research. I don't promote selectism laziness. But here is the interview where Jill stated race played a bigger role than "not want to shake her ass" was the reason why her album didn’t do well here. Before you even dared tried to use Prince didn’t help promote the album angle, Warner Bros took up the slack and did helped to promote the album. And the album still don’t well but had a minor response in Europe. Jill stated this.

"My first album was a very long pregnancy, good God, it took so long get out. It was a really ace album, but, the timing was way off. I don't think everyone was ready for it. Radio wasn't looking for it. There's a rap convention in Atlanta that I went to and people came up to me saying “you're Black? I didn't know you were Black! I would've played your record.” I just came back to Prince, like, “should I just get a tan?” White people somehow knew I was Black and they said “I'm not playing that house Negro on the radio.” The album was dead in the water. Then, I went to a function and I think I was crying. A Warner Brothers executive (Rob Dickens, CEO of Warner Brothers UK) saw me and he put money into the project to do promotion in Europe. We made the (music) video (for the single "Mia Bocca")...They (Europeans) always liked Josephine Baker, that whole thing always worked. I was discriminated against in my own country. I opened for Jody Watley in LA and, seriously, the crowd just stood there whole time with their arms crossed. I was angry dancing. I was singing “G-Spot” and I was like “I'm not going to shake my ass.” I know (on past tours) I would go out in my bra and panties, but, then I put on my trench coat and I'd leave. I just threw the mike down and walked off the stage. Prince came to me and said “is that it, are you done?” Maybe he created the diva in me. I think the album was a very intellectual album. We made a decision to take a lot of the poppy songs off. Once Clare Fisher puts the strings on it... I wanted to leave them on... That's where I sealed my fate to never have a hit record...(Prince) could have given me "The Glamorous Life". Sheila E. would come to the studio to play basketball and I did not know that the child was going in (to the studio) late at night and singing the songs..."

Source: http://beautifulnightschi...lks-2.html

She mentioned in that paragraph that I had been saying every since I appeared on this thread; Some Whites will rejected you if you are too black and some black people will rejected you if you are too white and that is something I stated in this thread I can relate to and I am not biracial. Wendy and Lisa also experienced this too and they too are not biracial of the black and white mix especially with record labels. So I hope you finally admit mainly race played a big role for why they didn’t succeed. And I stated before on this thread, Europeans and non-US foreign tend to embrace artists who performed mixed genres on their albums like Wendy and Lisa, and Jill had. Now Jill admitted to. Tyka Nelson admitted to this that Prince was more embraced in Europe. And yes Josephine Baker had to leave US because she refused to perform in segregation audiences. Lionel Richie had the same problem he had to water down the funk on his debut album, in other words, he couldn’t do the Commodores sound in his 1982 album because he wanted the white audience and it would be too black for them. So segregation in the US can cause a black/biracial/white artists like Wendy and Lisa and Jill and the likes of Lionel Richie from full fill their potential talent and wise.

Here is a quote from Wendy herself. The guy who run this site personally knows Wendy and Lisa and plus he is close with other members of the Coleman and Melvoin family. I think his name is Jesse and he communicates with Wendy and Lisa on a regular basis. Wendy and Lisa seem private but this is the guy who copied and pasted approved quotes from Wendy and Lisa themselves and he posted on it for the fans to see. This the best social media unofficial Wendy and Lisa site. I think he also helped runs Susannah Melvoin fan page too and she contributes. I am not sure we are allow to link Facebook fan sites on here. But it called: Music by Wendy Melvoin and Lisa Coleman. It was posted on March 9 of this year.

“For me it was a clear choice as a first single. It had exactly what Lisa and I are really good at, beautiful funk. Somehow we ended up being seen as too black for white radio and too white for black radio, it was a mess.”

And finally here is the same quote from Lisa that I was referring to:

In the same interview in the reissue’s CD booklet, Lisa Coleman discusses the duo’s intentional return to funk. “The record company was a little confused by us too," she said. "Like ‘What is it with you guys? I thought you were with Prince & the Revolution? Where’s the black audience for this?’”

Source: https://diffuser.fm/lolly-lolly/

It seems like your tactic is to win an argument at all costs just like Trump and instead of admit that sometimes facts are facts when it is deliver to you and just LET IT GO. If you continue to do downplay and not show empathy for other's struggles instead of arguing out of it, then debating with you is waste of time. I can't make you consume facts. I can’t make you stop downplaying other people’s struggles and ongoing ones. I really hope that you are not this way offline because that is not going to work in the real world of disregard facts and act very dismissive toward other people's struggles.

^^^ @ladygirl99:

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First, I'm not sure why you bothered to paste the 2013 Beautiful Nights blog interview with JJ, because if you had bothered to read the earlier posts on this thread you would have seen my references and link to that specific interview:

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violetcrush Page 4 Reply #94:

That bolded text came from Duane Tudahl's book. Jill was talking about that time period, which I believe was Spring of '83. She stated that it was just before rehearsals for PR and a couple of months prior to Vanity leaving the camp. She said they were all getting along during that time.

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Have you read Jill's 2013 interview about Prince? Here's a link to it in case you haven't seen it:

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http://beautifulnightschitown.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-question-of-u-jill-jones-talks-2.html

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Check out one of the comments below the article by the user name "Fire & Ice" - interestingly, that profile was created in 2013 but not updated since January 2016. Read the profile info too. Had to be Prince, or someone pretending to be him

It was a big waste of your time to post the information on the Jill Jones interview. AGAIN & AGAIN, as I had stated previously regarding what Jill Jones has said about why she thinks her album didn't sell:

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violetcrush Page 6 Reply #151:

Jill Jones - Yes, I KNOW all of the things Jill has said regarding why her album didn't sell. Along with her comments about the race issue she has ALSO said that the timing was off, and talked about how she didn't want to "shake her ass" while performing, so the crowd didn't respond to her. I'm sure there are a myriad of reasons for its lack of success, including the racial conflict, but I still think it was released 3-4 years too late.

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I have referenced that interview various times, and I believe I was the first to bring attention to the suspect comment on that page which resembles very much how Prince would have responded (during a discussion on a thread about a year ago). I also mentioned that in an earlier reply on this thread.

*

ladygirl99 said:

Once again you are being dismissive and downplay the struggles of people of color including the ones who made it. Okay true that Lenny grew up in upper middle class background but that doesn't protect him from experience racism even after success because of him and his rich multicultural family (aka Roxie Roker and Sly Kravitz). Yes Tina was successful but she still had to struggle even after success because she stated she was a black woman who didn't do solely R&B and the industry continue to put her into boxes here in the states especially when it comes to radio and award show categories. Lenny and Tina were successful because they had a good marketing team that knew how to promote them and was open-minded and not treat them like a stereotype.

*

violetcrush response:

*

Sorry, but what does Lenny K's experience with being mistaken for a suspect due to him bearing a close resemblence to that person have to do with his music career?? He was a multi-multi-millionaire when that incident occured, and the policemen who did not believe his identity (because he had no identification with him) personally went to his residence to apologize to him for their mistake. You are bringing racial situations/events into this debate that have NOTHING to do with Lenny's success in the music business and how he got there. AND you've admitted to MY statements regarding his priviledged upbringing which led to certain connections in the industry. So, I think we're done with the Lenny K debate.

*

Tina was extremely well-received here in the US by both R&B AND Top 40 radio stations. Really NOT sure where you are getting your information. Here AGAIN are the stats for you:
*

In the 1980s, Turner launched a major comeback as a solo artist. The 1983 single "Let's Stay Together" was followed by the 1984 release of her fifth solo album, Private Dancer, which became a worldwide success. The album contained the song "What's Love Got to Do with It"; the song became Turner's biggest hit and won four Grammy Awards, including Record of the Year. Turner's solo success continued throughout the 1980s and 1990s with multi-platinum albums and hit singles. In 1993, What's Love Got to Do with It, a biographical filmadapted from Turner's autobiography, was released along with an accompanying soundtrack album. In 2008, Turner returned from semi-retirement to embark on her Tina!: 50th Anniversary Tour; the tour became one of the highest-selling ticketed shows of all time. Turner has also garnered success acting in films such as the 1975 rock musical Tommy, the 1985 action film Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome, and the 1993 film Last Action Hero.

*

Not sure how you can classify Tina as "struggling" in the US with her career. She was HUGE in the 80's and ALL formats were playing her songs. I know, because I listened to Top 40 back then and her songs were on constant rotation. How does Tina winning "Record Of The Year" - NOT "Black" Record Of The Year - mesh with her having major struggles in the industry?? AGAIN, I think I've more than supported my statements about both Tina and Lenny K.

*

Wendy & Lisa -

*

ladygirl99 said:

One more time: Wendy and Lisa's album did not do well in the US because they were hippie white women that appreciated both black culture and white hippie culture (just like me) and added that to their sound and the label had hard time marketing them, whose album didn’t fallen into black or white music category to the point their label wanted them to be white women to do black sound or to be more like Prince which Wendy and Lisa had to compromise or refuse to do.

*

Wendy & Lisa "hippie white women"??? So, because they grew up in LA they were/are hippies?? THEIR PARENTS were part of the "hippie" culture, NOT them - they were just young kids during that time. They were also raised in quite a priviledged environment. They were not living out of a "magic bus" and traveling the country like hippies. They recieved a good education and attended higher end art schools. They were also exposed to the celebrity world because of their Fathers' connections and careers. So, NO - they were not "hippies". Being laid back and casual does not equate to being a hippie.

*

Wendy & Lisa's issues in the music business were MUCH MORE tied to their sexuality then their race. They had to hide their relationship from the industry and from the public. Here is some of their interview with OUT magazine in 2009:

*

How did the process of asserting your own identity as a duo conflict with the record companys perception of your marketability based on the Revolution?
Wendy: To be honest with you, it kind of manifested itself in every aspect of our career at the time. From the songs we were writing to the pictures we were taking to the videos that we wanted to do to the places we wanted to perform to the print that we wanted to give interviews to, it was all in constant contrast to what the business wanted from us. It was extremely frustrating because we were in such a minority as musicians and as young women. We werent even considering coming out because we were already dealing with so much adversity coming away from Prince. That on top of it just seemed insurmountable. I dont think either one of us were prepared at that age to have that be the ultimate battle.

*

Notice - They ARE NOT talking about race here. They are talking about the record company wanting them to continue being "the girls in The Revolution".

*

You were dealing with this during the Reagan years when the AIDS crisis was exploding and the progressive attitude regarding gays started reversing. It mustve been hard to contend with that while the music industry pushed you to be the next Mary Jane Girls.
Wendy and Lisa, nearly in unison: Thats exactly what they wanted.
Wendy: We couldnt have been more opposite of that. We were just geeky musicians. We still are. We did a record 10, 11 years ago with Trevor Horn that was never released. We were hoping that we would have the next fucking Grace Jones Slave to the Rhythm extravaganza. We thought, This is going to be genius! Were going to be musician freaks and experiment. And he, honest to god, wanted us to be the Spice Girls. My heart was broken.
Lisa: Not only that, but he was so homophobic. I hate to say it, but he wouldnt even let us eat off of his silverware on Friday because he was Jewish. It turned into this nightmare. He and his wife, oh God, I dont want to talk disparagingly about anybody, but it made us very uncomfortable.
Wendy: Our homosexuality became quite an issue for them.

*

ladygirl99 posted statements by Wendy & Lisa:

“For me it was a clear choice as a first single. It had exactly what Lisa and I are really good at, beautiful funk. Somehow we ended up being seen as too black for white radio and too white for black radio, it was a mess.”

And finally here is the same quote from Lisa that I was referring to:

In the same interview in the reissue’s CD booklet, Lisa Coleman discusses the duo’s intentional return to funk. “The record company was a little confused by us too," she said. "Like ‘What is it with you guys? I thought you were with Prince & the Revolution? Where’s the black audience for this?’”

*

Yes, I have seen those statements. And the guy's name is Jesse Esparza - he is close with Susannah, Wendy and Lisa. However, AGAIN - these statements STILL tie back to the record company NOT MARKETING THEM THE RIGHT WAY. They were also including a jazz sound within their "funk" songs, and using many different instruments, which was not typical for the funk sound. So they weren't traditional funk and they weren't straight up pop.

*

So, again, as you can see they were not having issues with being "white girls". The issues were with having to hide their sexuality, and also the record company wanting them to "sex it up" on stage and release more "pop hit" music, as they did with Prince. They wanted to do their own style - which they did, and the companies couldn't market them the right way.

*

ladygirl99 first said:

Lenny and Tina were successful because they had a good marketing team that knew how to promote them and was open-minded and not treat them like a stereotype.

*

ladygirl99 then said:

Race is the primary reason for their limited success here in the States and it isn’t my fault that some white people continues to act chicken shit of not admit that race sometimes is the reason or don’t want to debate about it, or refuse to address ‘the elephant’. What I loved about Wendy and Lisa is they are the white people who had no problem discuss about racism and willing to listen to other struggles and I can easily talk to without them acting dismissive and condescending (along with Bobby Z and Matt Fink they sure understand prejudice since they are both Jewish and particularly Bobby Z saw it firsthand with Prince).

*

Okay....you see how you are completely contradicting yourself here, right?? You are throwing the race argument in every direction - even areas that have nothing to do with this discussion/debate about the music industry. Sorry, but I don't see Wendy and Lisa's comments as them saying they were discriminated against as white women - I see them as stating the record company didn't know how to market them. The main discrimination they suffered was having to hide their sexuality. Listen to Why Wait For Heaven and Skeleton Key which are about that very issue. They also stated that Mother Of Pearl was inspired by their struggles with others' homophobia back then.

*

When have Bobby Z, Matt - or Wendy & Lisa for that matter - ever stated they felt discriminated against in the music industry because they were Jewish?? AGAIN, now you are just randomly throwing general statements about various prejudices that exist, but have nothing to do with this discussion/debate, and NOTHING to do with their success in the music business.

*

ladygirl99 said:

It seems like your tactic is to win an argument at all costs just like Trump and instead of admit that sometimes facts are facts when it is deliver to you and just LET IT GO

Seriously???? Considering Trump's usual tactics in an argument are to make false accusations toward his opponent, deflect the main issue by going off on tangents that have no direct correlation to the topic, and just ramble on about how he is an expert on any and every issue - even when specific statistics and factual statements disprove his comments....I would say you are a dead ringer for the Trumpster

[Edited 4/26/19 17:29pm]

violetcrush said:

^^^ @ladygirl99:

*

First, I'm not sure why you bothered to paste the 2013 Beautiful Nights blog interview with JJ, because if you had bothered to read the earlier posts on this thread you would have seen my references and link to that specific interview:

*

violetcrush Page 4 Reply #94:

That bolded text came from Duane Tudahl's book. Jill was talking about that time period, which I believe was Spring of '83. She stated that it was just before rehearsals for PR and a couple of months prior to Vanity leaving the camp. She said they were all getting along during that time.

*

Have you read Jill's 2013 interview about Prince? Here's a link to it in case you haven't seen it:

*

http://beautifulnightschitown.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-question-of-u-jill-jones-talks-2.html

*

Check out one of the comments below the article by the user name "Fire & Ice" - interestingly, that profile was created in 2013 but not updated since January 2016. Read the profile info too. Had to be Prince, or someone pretending to be him

It was a big waste of your time to post the information on the Jill Jones interview. AGAIN & AGAIN, as I had stated previously regarding what Jill Jones has said about why she thinks her album didn't sell:

*

*

Okay....you see how you are completely contradicting yourself here, right?? You are throwing the race argument in every direction - even areas that have nothing to do with this discussion/debate about the music industry. Sorry, but I don't see Wendy and Lisa's comments as them saying they were discriminated against as white women - I see them as stating the record company didn't know how to market them. The main discrimination they suffered was having to hide their sexuality. Listen to Why Wait For Heaven and Skeleton Key which are about that very issue. They also stated that Mother Of Pearl was inspired by their struggles with others' homophobia back then.

*

When have Bobby Z, Matt - or Wendy & Lisa for that matter - ever stated they felt discriminated against in the music industry because they were Jewish?? AGAIN, now you are just randomly throwing general statements about various prejudices that exist, but have nothing to do with this discussion/debate, and NOTHING to do with their success in the music business.

*

ladygirl99 said:

It seems like your tactic is to win an argument at all costs just like Trump and instead of admit that sometimes facts are facts when it is deliver to you and just LET IT GO

Seriously???? Considering Trump's usual tactics in an argument are to make false accusations toward his opponent, deflect the main issue by going off on tangents that have no direct correlation to the topic, and just ramble on about how he is an expert on any and every issue - even when specific statistics and factual statements disprove his comments....I would say you are a dead ringer for the Trumpster

[Edited 4/26/19 17:29pm]

So I guess you are going to continue to minimize that racial segregation is the MAIN reason for hinder the success of Wendy, Lisa, and Jill who didn't made strictly white or black radio friendly albums? I am not saying Wendy and Lisa didn’t experience homophobia in the music industry (mainly with Trevor Horn) but they experienced racism themselves when their major labels VIRGIN and COLUMBIA told the both of them to sound either black and white on their songs. I am not saying Wendy and Lisa didn’t enjoy the upper middle-class lifestyle that was granted by their fathers. I am not saying Jill didn’t experience sexism.

FOR THE FINAL TIME: THE MAIN REASON WHY WENDY, JILL, AND LISA LABELS DIDN’T KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH THEM IT IS BECAUSE RACE SEGREGATION! Not because they didn’t dress sexy enough, not because Wendy and Lisa were gay (also many people in the music industry were/are gay themselves and plus Wendy and Lisa were still in the closeted to the public so how the listeners would know they were gay, so WTF with your Wendy and Lisa experienced more homophobia more than race argument?), and they basically confirmed it themselves from the sources I just posted race is the major role. Even after I posted you sources that Jill, Wendy, and Lisa had record labels telling them to sound more black or white(now I feel regret doing but that since you acting so ungrateful) instead of admit it as a HUGE factor, you just went and going to do whataboutism argument just to try to prove it wasn’t race why they weren’t successful. That is also disrespectful to Wendy, Lisa, and Jill who were there and dealt with these record labels—NOT YOU. You have no business trying to tell their story on their behalf when you wasn’t there and when all three stated in their interviews their labels didn’t know how to market them because of racism. I don’t think they would be happy if fans downplay their experiences just to win a debate.

I am NOT going to waste my time and to reply the rest of your last post, it is because you continue to deny and deflect about racial struggles that minorities face in the music industry. You continued to misconstrued my quotes.

Sort of off subject: And once again you disregard another fact I mentioned. Wendy did referred to Lisa as a hippie chick in some interviews when they talked about Prince (no I won’t posted those articles of Wendy and Lisa also described themselves as channeled their parents hippie/beatnik lifestyle since you seem ungrateful when I posted articles of Jill, Wendy, and Lisa). The hippie influences didn't end in the 1960s with Wendy and Lisa. Plus Wendy and Lisa channeled 1960s hippie style when they toured their second album Fruit At the Bottom. Plus their contributions to Around The World in a Day. And also I believed Wendy and Lisa are living the neo-hippies lifestyle not the 60s hippies like their parents were (they loved music, Lisa does artwork, their clothes and jewelry, their chill vibe, they are not religious, they talked about social justice on their social media and Lisa is/was a vegetarian). To be honest from my observation of them, I think Lisa is more of the traditional hippie one and Wendy is the alt/grunge/hippie into one chick. And Jill is the free-spirit hippie one who values art. People need to realize that being a hippie is not always about dressing the flowery clothes it is the way of life.

Look I am done debating with you. You are not learning and empathizing here instead you want to win to the point of you sort of disregarding Jill's experience and along with Wendy and Lisa's. You can’t teach the unlearn wannabe know it all who doesn't know ish. Also, I am starting to see (like you do the same to other posters) that your goal is to win an argument at all cost and disregard facts and act obtuse, and therefore those type of people is waste of time to educate. Good riddance. Don't bother to reply further. SMH.

[Edited 4/27/19 8:27am]

ladygirl99 said:

violetcrush said:

^^^ @ladygirl99:

*

First, I'm not sure why you bothered to paste the 2013 Beautiful Nights blog interview with JJ, because if you had bothered to read the earlier posts on this thread you would have seen my references and link to that specific interview:

*

Seriously???? Considering Trump's usual tactics in an argument are to make false accusations toward his opponent, deflect the main issue by going off on tangents that have no direct correlation to the topic, and just ramble on about how he is an expert on any and every issue - even when specific statistics and factual statements disprove his comments....I would say you are a dead ringer for the Trumpster

[Edited 4/26/19 17:29pm]

So I guess you are going to continue to minimize that racial segregation is the MAIN reason for hinder the success of Wendy, Lisa, and Jill who didn't made strictly white or black radio friendly albums? I am not saying Wendy and Lisa didn’t experience homophobia in the music industry (mainly with Trevor Horn) but they experienced racism themselves when their major labels VIRGIN and COLUMBIA told the both of them to sound either black and white on their songs. I am not saying Wendy and Lisa didn’t enjoy the upper middle-class lifestyle that was granted by their fathers. I am not saying Jill didn’t experience sexism.

FOR THE FINAL TIME: THE MAIN REASON WHY WENDY, JILL, AND LISA LABELS DIDN’T KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH THEM IT IS BECAUSE RACE SEGREGATION! Not because they didn’t dress sexy enough, not because Wendy and Lisa were gay (also many people in the music industry were/are gay themselves and plus Wendy and Lisa were still in the closeted to the public so how the listeners would know they were gay, so WTF with your Wendy and Lisa experienced more homophobia more than race argument?), and they basically confirmed it themselves from the sources I just posted race is the major role. Even after I posted you sources that Jill, Wendy, and Lisa had record labels telling them to sound more black or white(now I feel regret doing but that since you acting so ungrateful) instead of admit it as a HUGE factor, you just went and going to do whataboutism argument just to try to prove it wasn’t race why they weren’t successful. That is also disrespectful to Wendy, Lisa, and Jill who were there and dealt with these record labels—NOT YOU. You have no business trying to tell their story on their behalf when you wasn’t there and when all three stated in their interviews their labels didn’t know how to market them because of racism. I don’t think they would be happy if fans downplay their experiences just to win a debate.

I am NOT going to waste my time and to reply the rest of your last post, it is because you continue to deny and deflect about racial struggles that minorities face in the music industry. You continued to misconstrued my quotes.

Sort of off subject: And once again you disregard another fact I mentioned. Wendy did referred to Lisa as a hippie chick in some interviews when they talked about Prince (no I won’t posted those articles of Wendy and Lisa also described themselves as channeled their parents hippie/beatnik lifestyle since you seem ungrateful when I posted articles of Jill, Wendy, and Lisa). The hippie influences didn't end in the 1960s with Wendy and Lisa. Plus Wendy and Lisa channeled 1960s hippie style when they toured their second album Fruit At the Bottom. Plus their contributions to Around The World in a Day. And also I believed Wendy and Lisa are living the neo-hippies lifestyle not the 60s hippies like their parents were (they loved music, Lisa does artwork, their clothes and jewelry, their chill vibe, they are not religious, they talked about social justice on their social media and Lisa is/was a vegetarian). To be honest from my observation of them, I think Lisa is more of the traditional hippie one and Wendy is the alt/grunge/hippie into one chick. And Jill is the free-spirit hippie one who values art. People need to realize that being a hippie is not always about dressing the flowery clothes it is the way of life.

Look I am done debating with you. You are not learning and empathizing here instead you want to win to the point of you sort of disregarding Jill's experience and along with Wendy and Lisa's. You can’t teach the unlearn wannabe know it all who doesn't know ish. Also, I am starting to see (like you do the same to other posters) that your goal is to win an argument at all cost and disregard facts and act obtuse, and therefore those type of people is waste of time to educate. Good riddance. Don't bother to reply further. SMH.

[Edited 4/27/19 8:27am]

ladygirl99 said:

So I guess you are going to continue to minimize that racial segregation is the MAIN reason for hinder the success of Wendy, Lisa, and Jill who didn't made strictly white or black radio friendly albums? I am not saying Wendy and Lisa didn’t experience homophobia in the music industry (mainly with Trevor Horn) but they experienced racism themselves when their major labels VIRGIN and COLUMBIA told the both of them to sound either black and white on their songs.

*

RACIAL SEGREGATION IS NOT THE MAIN REASON WENDY & LISA'S OR JILL JONES' ALBUMS DID NOT SELL!!!!!!! Get over your obvious issues about race. Their record companies not knowing how to MARKET them IS A COMPLETELY SEPARATE ISSUE. There were plenty of "mixed" sounding records by either black or white artists.

*

Example: Jody Watley - a black artist whose HUGE selling album in 1987 (produced by Andre Cymone) garnered the top hit Looking For A New Love and WAS PLAYED ON BOTH R&B AND TOP 40 RADIO STATIONS. Jill Jones actually opened for her during one of her shows. Here's the information for you:

*

After two and a half years in England, Watley returned to America and secured a recording deal with MCA Records, eager to establish her own identity.^[29] Her debut solo studio album, titledJody Watley, was released in March 1987, and she co-wrote six of the album's nine songs. In an interview with Rolling Stone, Watley would say that she wanted to showcase her voice against "really funky hard dance tracks."^[29] The album's lead single, "Looking for a New Love", became a hit and was certified Gold by the Recording Industry Association of America(RIAA).^[30] The album peaked at number ten on the US Billboard 200, number one on the Top R&B/Hip-Hop Albums chart, and sold 2 million copies in the United States and a total of 4 million copies worldwide. It produced five uptempo dance and R&B singles that charted on the Billboard Hot 100, with three peaking within the top-ten: "Looking for a New Love" (#2); "Still a Thrill" (#56); "Don't You Want Me" (#6); "Some Kind of Lover" (#10); and "Most of All" (#60)^[31] Also included on her debut album was the duet with George Michael, "Learn to Say No", produced by Bernard Edwards of Chic-fame.

At the 30th Annual Grammy Awards of 1988, Watley won the award for Best New Artist, and was nominated for Best Female R&B Vocal Performance. That same year, she also received nominations for four MTV Video Music Awards and three Soul Train Awards. After Shalamar she had two singles released under the name of "Jody", without her last name even though adverts in UK pop magazine, Smash Hits, mentioned that she was "Formerly of Shalamar". This "technicality" (no second name), allowed her controversially to be considered a "New Artist" at the Grammy's, beating Breakfast Club, Cutting Crew, Terence Trent D'Arby and Swing Out Sister. Shortly after winning the Grammy, Watley would be featured in Harper's Bazaarmagazine photographed by Francesco Scavullo.^[32]

*

Question: If there was, as YOU claim, so much racial segregation going on during that time how in the world would Prince, Whitney Houston, Jody Watley, Janet Jackson, Tina, Lenny K and on and on have been able to have such huge success with both white and black audiences?? AND how would white or mixed artists like Madonna and Mariah Carey ALSO have had such success??

Answer: The artists listed above were lucky enough to have execs at their labels who KNEW how to market them in the best way and get their music played.

*

Jill Jones was under the Paisley Park label, which is known to have not had much support from WB at the time her album was released. Prince was NOT handling the marketing for his own label. Add to that the "off" timing of the songs on the album and no cohesive plan to get her on some kind of tour (she has even stated in hindsight that she should have been doing music festivals around the country instead of random "one off" performances to support the album), and you have a recipe for an album that will not sell.

*

Wendy and Lisa have specifically stated (as you read from my paste of their interview with OUT magazine) that the record execs expected them to be "Wendy & Lisa from The Revolution" and not to be their own new entity. They wanted a continuation of 'Prince music".

*

ladygirl99 wrote:

"Wendy, and Lisa). The hippie influences didn't end in the 1960s with Wendy and Lisa. Plus Wendy and Lisa channeled 1960s hippie style when they toured their second album Fruit At the Bottom."

*

What??? WHERE do you get any kind of "hippie influence" from Fruit At The Bottom???? They've stated that this album was done to try to satisfy the "suits" at the label and give them more of the "Prince" sound they wanted. Fruit At The Bottom (the single), Are You My Baby, and Satisfaction are ALL funk/rock songs and are far from the "60's hippie" sound. THOSE songs were the ones released as singles, because the label was trying to get a Top 40 hit. They also performed Are You My Baby and Lolly Lolly on Soul Train in 1988, so I'm pretty sure I'm right on this one. The other tracks are either jazzy paino focused ballad songs or guitar based slow songs like I Think It Was December.

*

Just for clarification - one can be "free-spirited" and artistic without being labeled a "hippie". Lisa has always been aligned with classical composers and that music as much as any other style, and Wendy loves funk and techno rock. NONE of these things puts them in a "hippie" category. Same with Jill Jones.

*

To the Beat Generation that had been active since the 1940s, the flood of youths in the 1960s adopting beatnik sensibilities appeared as a cheap, mass-produced imitation. By Beat Generation standards, these newcomers were not cool enough to be considered hip, so they used the term hippie with disdain. American conservatives of the period used the term hippie as an insult toward young adults whom they consideredunpatriotic, uninformed, and naive.^{[citation needed]} Ronald Reagan, who was governor of California during the height of the hippie movement, described a hippie as a person who "dresses like Tarzan, has hair like Jane, and smells like Cheeta."^[25] Others used the term hippie in a more personal way to disparage long-haired, unwashed, unkempt drug users. In contemporary conservative settings, the term hippie is often used to allude to slacker attitudes, irresponsibility, participation in recreational drug use, activism in causes considered relatively trivial, and leftistpolitical leanings (regardless of whether the individual was actually connected to the hippie subculture).^[26] An example is its use by the South Park cartoon character, Eric Cartman.^[27]

*

ladygirl99 said:

Look I am done debating with you. You are not learning and empathizing here instead you want to win to the point of you sort of disregarding Jill's experience and along with Wendy and Lisa's. You can’t teach the unlearn wannabe know it all who doesn't know ish. Also, I am starting to see (like you do the same to other posters) that your goal is to win an argument at all cost and disregard facts and act obtuse, and therefore those type of people is waste of time to educate. Good riddance. Don't bother to reply further. SMH.

*

You are claiming to be "teaching" me something through all of this back-and-forth, however, I have countered all of your claims with detailed and factual points that support my view (and show that yours are unsubstantiated), which is that racial segregation is NOT the main reason W&L and JJ albums did not do well. You have stated nothing to "educate" me at all, and you have also stated many things that have nothing to do with race and the music industry back in the late 80's. However, I have listed many examples of very successful black and white artists whose music was played on both R&B and Top 40 radio.

*

Seems I am not the one who is unable to concede the argument here.

I'm starting to feel sorry I made this thread.

Mikado said:

violetcrush said:

Mikado said:

I'm starting to feel sorry I made this thread.

You and me both

violetcrush said:

violetcrush said:

You and me both

^^^ @Mikado - curious as to your take on this extended debate. Do you think the main reason Jill’s and Wendy & Lisa’s albums didn’t sell was due to racial segregation in the music industry?? Just doesn’t jive with the fact that there were many artists during that time who were successful with both the black and white radio markets. * Earlier on the thread we were discussing the lack of promotion and support for Jill’s album by Prince and the PP label, and also the songs being dated. To me, this makes the most sense.

Well, I mean, if it was a racial issue, it was from both white and black folks. Their albums didn't do well on the Hot 200 (the pop charts) or the Top R&B albums.

But I really reject the idea that sexuality, race, etc. had a large role in their lack of success. They went solo and started putting out their flavor of pop music at a time when that style was sorta going out. I mean, Prince had left the "Revolution sound" behind and was making forays into hip-hop and more urban music towards the end of the 80s, which is what was doing well in the charts (think Milli Vanilli & Bobby Brown).

Honestly though, I don't think Wendy & Lisa were in it to sell millions of albums or anything. They were artists first.

Mikado said:

Mikado said:

I'm starting to feel sorry I made this thread.

Yup a good thread ruin. I just came back to this thread since I saw you made new posts. And yup you started the thread.

I am going to contunue to listen to the people who are there sharing their experience and the ones who talked to me over the years of social media. And the industry people. Their opinions is more value than just about anyone on this site.

Fuck some of these fans opinions why think they know everything but they don't know shit.

But I respect your opinion.

[Edited 4/28/19 10:44am]

ladygirl99 said:

Mikado said:

I'm starting to feel sorry I made this thread.

Yup a good thread ruin.

I am going to contunue to listen to the people who are there sharing their experience and the ones who talked to me over the years of social media. And the industry people.

Fuck some of these fans opinions why think they know everything but they don't know shit.

[Edited 4/28/19 10:42am]

Ummm.....you did read Mikado's posts just above this one, right?? He's agreeing with my viewpoint, so I would say you are describing yourself in this post

violetcrush said:

ladygirl99 said:

Yup a good thread ruin.

I am going to contunue to listen to the people who are there sharing their experience and the ones who talked to me over the years of social media. And the industry people.

Fuck some of these fans opinions why think they know everything but they don't know shit.

[Edited 4/28/19 10:42am]

Ummm.....you did read Mikado's posts just above this one, right?? He's agreeing with my viewpoint, so I would say you are describing yourself in this post

Go the fuck away and get a life. I said before I am not talking to you anymore. And plus I wasn't talking to you when I came back to this thread I was replying to the original poster. You ruined this thread thanks a lot and it might get shut down because of you.

I said "I respect his opinion'" can you fucking read? That doesn't mean I agree with him. And the reason why I respect his viewpoint because he seems more respectful engaging this debate.

You have been reported because now you are being trollish just because you have no life. I noticed you are doing the same shit with other orgers.

ladygirl99 said:

violetcrush said:

Ummm.....you did read Mikado's posts just above this one, right?? He's agreeing with my viewpoint, so I would say you are describing yourself in this post

Go the fuck away and get a life. I said before I am not talking to you anymore. And plus I wasn't talking to you when I came back to this thread I was replying to the original poster. You ruined this thread thanks a lot and it might get shut down because of you.

I said "I respect his opinion'" can you fucking read? That doesn't mean I agree with him. And the reason why I respect his viewpoint because he seems more respectful engaging this debate.

You have been reported because now you are being trollish just because you have no life. I noticed you are doing the same shit with other orgers.

Wow. Please re-read ^^^ that and then come back and tell me who is disrespectful here.

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Reported??? Okay, sure. I have no doubt that any Mod will read through this thread and determine that I have done nothing but respectfully support my viewpoint

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And for the record - THIS is your response to Mikado -

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ladygirl99 said:

"Yup a good thread ruin."

"I am going to contunue to listen to the people who are there sharing their experience and the ones who talked to me over the years of social media. And the industry people."

"Fuck some of these fans opinions why think they know everything but they don't know shit."

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Your comment in bold text was the reason for my post to you. Not exactly sure where you are stating here that you "respect his opinion"?? This was his opinion:

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"But I really reject the idea that sexuality, race, etc. had a large role in their lack of success. They went solo and started putting out their flavor of pop music at a time when that style was sorta going out. I mean, Prince had left the "Revolution sound" behind and was making forays into hip-hop and more urban music towards the end of the 80s, which is what was doing well in the charts (think Milli Vanilli & Bobby Brown)."
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I think one of us needs to learn how to read, but it sure ain't me

Look you weirdo read this:

People Who Will Say Anything to Win an Argument

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/ambigamy/201612/people-who-will-say-anything-win-argument

Absolutism: Absolute confidence in one’s beliefs. Beliefs held so firmly that nothing could change one’s mind. (AKA Fundamentalism, extremism, pigheadedness, buttheadedness, incorrigibility, un-receptivity, close-mindedness, self-certainty, faith, being a know-it-all, suffering from hardening of the smarteries).

When the going gets tough, we would hope that, just like in the blockbuster disaster movies, people would become more receptive, flexible, collaborative, creative, and adaptable. That’s not what usually happens.

Yup they are talking about you. I had stated before. Go the fuck away. Not only you can't read but you are deaf.

[Edited 4/28/19 13:23pm]

ladygirl99 said:

Look you weirdo read this:

People Who Will Say Anything to Win an Argument

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/ambigamy/201612/people-who-will-say-anything-win-argument

Absolutism: Absolute confidence in one’s beliefs. Beliefs held so firmly that nothing could change one’s mind. (AKA Fundamentalism, extremism, pigheadedness, buttheadedness, incorrigibility, un-receptivity, close-mindedness, self-certainty, faith, being a know-it-all, suffering from hardening of the smarteries).

When the going gets tough, we would hope that, just like in the blockbuster disaster movies, people would become more receptive, flexible, collaborative, creative, and adaptable. That’s not what usually happens.

Yup they are talking about you. I had stated before. Go the fuck away. Not only you can't read but you are deaf.

[Edited 4/28/19 13:23pm]

You really need to familarize yourself with the word "hypocrite".

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ladygirl99 post #163 -response to violetcrush:

Go the fuck away and get a life. I said before I am not talking to you anymore. And plus I wasn't talking to you when I came back to this thread I was replying to the original poster. You ruined this thread thanks a lot and it might get shut down because of you.

I said "I respect his opinion'" can you fucking read? That doesn't mean I agree with him. And the reason why I respect his viewpoint because he seems more respectful engaging this debate.

You have been reported because now you are being trollish just because you have no life. I noticed you are doing the same shit with other orgers.

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Oh, and just for "shits and giggles"....here is the Jill Jones' statement that you posted regarding the issues with her 1987 album:

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Posted by ladygirl99 # 152:

"My first album was a very long pregnancy, good God, it took so long get out. It was a really ace album, but, the timing was way off. I don't think everyone was ready for it. Radio wasn't looking for it. There's a rap convention in Atlanta that I went to and people came up to me saying “you're Black? I didn't know you were Black! I would've played your record.” I just came back to Prince, like, “should I just get a tan?” White people somehow knew I was Black and they said “I'm not playing that house Negro on the radio.” The album was dead in the water. Then, I went to a function and I think I was crying. A Warner Brothers executive (Rob Dickens, CEO of Warner Brothers UK) saw me and he put money into the project to do promotion in Europe. We made the (music) video (for the single "Mia Bocca")...They (Europeans) always liked Josephine Baker, that whole thing always worked. I was discriminated against in my own country. I opened for Jody Watley in LA and, seriously, the crowd just stood there whole time with their arms crossed. I was angry dancing. I was singing “G-Spot” and I was like “I'm not going to shake my ass.” I know (on past tours) I would go out in my bra and panties, but, then I put on my trench coat and I'd leave. I just threw the mike down and walked off the stage. Prince came to me and said “is that it, are you done?” Maybe he created the diva in me. I think the album was a very intellectual album. We made a decision to take a lot of the poppy songs off. Once Clare Fisher puts the strings on it... I wanted to leave them on... That's where I sealed my fate to never have a hit record...(Prince) could have given me "The Glamorous Life". Sheila E. would come to the studio to play basketball and I did not know that the child was going in (to the studio) late at night and singing the songs..."

A little quiz for you: see if you can pinpoint the various reasons Jill outlined in that above quote with regard to why her album didn't sell....hint: the answers are in bolded text

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So, the information you used to try to support your viewpoint actually supports mine - that there were a myriad of reasons why Jill's album did not sell.

violetcrush said:

ladygirl99 said:

Look you weirdo read this:

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Oh, and just for "shits and giggles"....here is the Jill Jones' statement that you posted regarding the issues with her 1987 album:

*

Posted by ladygirl99 # 152:

"My first album was a very long pregnancy, good God, it took so long get out. It was a really ace album, but, the timing was way off. I don't think everyone was ready for it. Radio wasn't looking for it. There's a rap convention in Atlanta that I went to and people came up to me saying “you're Black? I didn't know you were Black! I would've played your record.” I just came back to Prince, like, “should I just get a tan?” White people somehow knew I was Black and they said “I'm not playing that house Negro on the radio.” The album was dead in the water. Then, I went to a function and I think I was crying. A Warner Brothers executive (Rob Dickens, CEO of Warner Brothers UK) saw me and he put money into the project to do promotion in Europe. We made the (music) video (for the single "Mia Bocca")...They (Europeans) always liked Josephine Baker, that whole thing always worked. I was discriminated against in my own country. I opened for Jody Watley in LA and, seriously, the crowd just stood there whole time with their arms crossed. I was angry dancing. I was singing “G-Spot” and I was like “I'm not going to shake my ass.” I know (on past tours) I would go out in my bra and panties, but, then I put on my trench coat and I'd leave. I just threw the mike down and walked off the stage. Prince came to me and said “is that it, are you done?” Maybe he created the diva in me. I think the album was a very intellectual album. We made a decision to take a lot of the poppy songs off. Once Clare Fisher puts the strings on it... I wanted to leave them on... That's where I sealed my fate to never have a hit record...(Prince) could have given me "The Glamorous Life". Sheila E. would come to the studio to play basketball and I did not know that the child was going in (to the studio) late at night and singing the songs..."

A little quiz for you: see if you can pinpoint the various reasons Jill outlined in that above quote with regard to why her album didn't sell....hint: the answers are in bolded text

*

So, the information you used to try to support your viewpoint actually supports mine - that there were a myriad of reasons why Jill's album did not sell.

People Who Will Say Anything to Win an Argument
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/ambigamy/201612/people-who-will-say-anything-win-argument
Absolutism: Absolute confidence in one’s beliefs. Beliefs held so firmly that nothing could change one’s mind. (AKA Fundamentalism, extremism, pigheadedness, buttheadedness, incorrigibility, un-receptivity, close-mindedness, self-certainty, faith, being a know-it-all, suffering from hardening of the smarteries).
When the going gets tough, we would hope that, just like in the blockbuster disaster movies, people would become more receptive, flexible, collaborative, creative, and adaptable. That’s not what usually happens.

ladygirl99 said:

violetcrush said:

People Who Will Say Anything to Win an Argument
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/ambigamy/201612/people-who-will-say-anything-win-argument
Absolutism: Absolute confidence in one’s beliefs. Beliefs held so firmly that nothing could change one’s mind. (AKA Fundamentalism, extremism, pigheadedness, buttheadedness, incorrigibility, un-receptivity, close-mindedness, self-certainty, faith, being a know-it-all, suffering from hardening of the smarteries).
When the going gets tough, we would hope that, just like in the blockbuster disaster movies, people would become more receptive, flexible, collaborative, creative, and adaptable. That’s not what usually happens.

No words left to say here so I'll leave it to the emojis .......

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SoulAlive said:

Show's over.....I'm done!! Ya can't fix crazy