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Reply #120 posted 04/10/19 6:54pm

peggyon

KoolEaze said:

SoulAlive said:

Yeah,Jill's album came out too late.She wasn't able to benefit from the Purple Rain hype of 1984/85,even though several of the songs on her album are actually from that era.

Furthermore,her album wasn't really promoted at all.I never heard "Mia Bocca" on any radio station.I think her best chance at a hit would have been "My Man".That should have been the first single,with heavy promotion and a hot video.

The only time I saw the (really great) video for Mia Bocca was in 1993 when MTV played a lot of Prince videos on a weekend while he was doing the Act II tour. Jill´s album totally flew under the radar and deserved better. It´s one of my favorite related artist albums.

And you are absolutely right, it should have been released much earlier. Jill is one of the most neglected and most talented associated artists.

I wonder if JJam and Terry Lewis could have produced her? She was talented.

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Reply #121 posted 04/10/19 8:24pm

SoulAlive

peggyon said:



KoolEaze said:




SoulAlive said:




Yeah,Jill's album came out too late.She wasn't able to benefit from the Purple Rain hype of 1984/85,even though several of the songs on her album are actually from that era.



Furthermore,her album wasn't really promoted at all.I never heard "Mia Bocca" on any radio station.I think her best chance at a hit would have been "My Man".That should have been the first single,with heavy promotion and a hot video.



The only time I saw the (really great) video for Mia Bocca was in 1993 when MTV played a lot of Prince videos on a weekend while he was doing the Act II tour. Jill´s album totally flew under the radar and deserved better. It´s one of my favorite related artist albums.


And you are absolutely right, it should have been released much earlier. Jill is one of the most neglected and most talented associated artists.






I wonder if JJam and Terry Lewis could have produced her? She was talented.





That would have been perfect.Can you imagine Jill having a hot song like “I Didn’t Mean To Turn You On” as her debut single?! I wish Prince had not fired them.They could have really helped out the Paisley Park artists.

..
[Edited 4/10/19 20:25pm]
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Reply #122 posted 04/12/19 2:16pm

OldFriends4Sal
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Another interesting tibit, is that sometime in 1983-1984? Prince wanted to rechristen Jill as Elektra

But Steve Fargnoli(?) talked him out of it, that she was technically already established with her name.

When you listen to the opening of the Ladder, that subject named Elektra is clearly Jill JOnes

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence
I will make you cyber shit in your pants!
What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In
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Reply #123 posted 04/12/19 4:09pm

violetcrush

OldFriends4Sale said:



Another interesting tibit, is that sometime in 1983-1984? Prince wanted to rechristen Jill as Elektra



But Steve Fargnoli(?) talked him out of it, that she was technically already established with her name.



When you listen to the opening of the Ladder, that subject named Elektra is clearly Jill JOnes



Possibly, but I think he just liked the term “Elektra” because he had the other unreleased song “Come Elektra Tuesday”, and later used it for Carmen Elektra. I think he just wanted someone to use that name.
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Reply #124 posted 04/15/19 5:33am

imprimis

I'm fairly certain that the Electra/Elektra of 'The Ladder' lyrical repute is a reference to the Greek mythological princess of Argos. Is entirely possible that he toyed with rebranding JJ with that, as well, and the sound of the name stayed in his mind and he may have liked it enough to recycle later with Carmen.

.

[Edited 4/15/19 5:37am]

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Reply #125 posted 04/15/19 8:15am

violetcrush

imprimis said:

I'm fairly certain that the Electra/Elektra of 'The Ladder' lyrical repute is a reference to the Greek mythological princess of Argos. Is entirely possible that he toyed with rebranding JJ with that, as well, and the sound of the name stayed in his mind and he may have liked it enough to recycle later with Carmen.


.


[Edited 4/15/19 5:37am]


Possibly. I guess he could have had a period where he was interested in Mythology, although he usually used religious terms in his songs. I always thought his term Elektra was referencing a woman who encouraged or represented sinful behavior and moved him further away from God. I didn’t think that people who followed a specific religion also believed in Mythology or Mythological Gods/Goddesses.
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Reply #126 posted 04/15/19 12:01pm

imprimis

Of casual literary, and not religious, interest, and he wove it into his song (which happens also to have a broad Christian theme). Perhaps a sluggish afternoon with a tattered copy of Edith Hamilton at the Warehouse.

.

[Edited 4/15/19 18:01pm]

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Reply #127 posted 04/15/19 1:55pm

violetcrush

imprimis said:

Of casual literary, and not religious, interest, and he wove into his song (which happens also to have a broad Christian theme). Perhaps a sluggish afternoon with a tattered copy of Edith Hamilton at the Warehouse.


.


[Edited 4/15/19 12:05pm]


Yes, it seems he did find time to read a bit - maybe on some of those lonely nights without his woman - so anything’s possible biggrin
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Reply #128 posted 04/16/19 2:27pm

OldFriends4Sal
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imprimis said:

I'm fairly certain that the Electra/Elektra of 'The Ladder' lyrical repute is a reference to the Greek mythological princess of Argos. Is entirely possible that he toyed with rebranding JJ with that, as well, and the sound of the name stayed in his mind and he may have liked it enough to recycle later with Carmen.

.

[Edited 4/15/19 5:37am]

Yes, the Greek princess, but he did want to change her name like he did a lot of others, Fargnoli explained why it wasn't workable. Jill talked about it in a past interview

The character in the ladder the King is Prince the subject fits Jills 'unrequited love' story with Prince, same vein in Wednesday, She's Always In My Hair, her character in Purple Rain and many songs worked on for her first album.

Once upon a time in the land of Sin-aplenty
There lived a king who didn't deserve to be
He knew not where he came from
Nor where he was going
He never once said thank you, never please
Now this king he had a subject named Electra
Who loved him with a passion, uncontested
For him each day she had a smile
But it didn't matter

Related image

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence
I will make you cyber shit in your pants!
What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In
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Reply #129 posted 04/16/19 2:28pm

OldFriends4Sal
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violetcrush said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Another interesting tibit, is that sometime in 1983-1984? Prince wanted to rechristen Jill as Elektra

But Steve Fargnoli(?) talked him out of it, that she was technically already established with her name.

When you listen to the opening of the Ladder, that subject named Elektra is clearly Jill JOnes

Possibly, but I think he just liked the term “Elektra” because he had the other unreleased song “Come Elektra Tuesday”, and later used it for Carmen Elektra. I think he just wanted someone to use that name.

I'm not just guessing off this one, Jill talked about it.

And Come Elektra Tuesday was a possible for Jill Jones album and she is vocals on it

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence
I will make you cyber shit in your pants!
What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In
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Reply #130 posted 04/16/19 2:35pm

OldFriends4Sal
e

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violetcrush said:

imprimis said:

I'm fairly certain that the Electra/Elektra of 'The Ladder' lyrical repute is a reference to the Greek mythological princess of Argos. Is entirely possible that he toyed with rebranding JJ with that, as well, and the sound of the name stayed in his mind and he may have liked it enough to recycle later with Carmen.

.

[Edited 4/15/19 5:37am]

Possibly. I guess he could have had a period where he was interested in Mythology, although he usually used religious terms in his songs. I always thought his term Elektra was referencing a woman who encouraged or represented sinful behavior and moved him further away from God. I didn’t think that people who followed a specific religion also believed in Mythology or Mythological Gods/Goddesses.

I don't understand?

Prince always used 'non Christian' images and non Christian beliefs.

The Rainbow Children that people call his JW album is more a mix of Gnostic beliefs and Egyptology

Prince started using Egyptology heavily starting in the mid 90s onward into Revelation

Prince has tons of songs released and unreleased that use 'non Christian' references

When you read the opening lyrics to the Ladder it is not referencing a Greek story or a Princess. Elektra was a subject of the kings court. ie Prince and Jill (Purple Court) Elektra of the Ladder was not the kings daughter, she was a subject who clearly was in love with the king. Also 'sin' as used in the Ladder would not be 'sin' of Greek religion.

In Greek mythology, Elektra (/ɪˈlɛktrə/; Greek: Ἠλέκτρα, Ēlektra, "amber") was the daughter of King Agamemnon and Queen Clytemnestra, and thus princess of Argos. She and her brother Orestes plotted revenge against their mother Clytemnestra and stepfather Aegisthus for the murder of their father.

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence
I will make you cyber shit in your pants!
What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In
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Reply #131 posted 04/16/19 7:01pm

violetcrush

OldFriends4Sale said:



violetcrush said:


imprimis said:

I'm fairly certain that the Electra/Elektra of 'The Ladder' lyrical repute is a reference to the Greek mythological princess of Argos. Is entirely possible that he toyed with rebranding JJ with that, as well, and the sound of the name stayed in his mind and he may have liked it enough to recycle later with Carmen.


.



[Edited 4/15/19 5:37am]



Possibly. I guess he could have had a period where he was interested in Mythology, although he usually used religious terms in his songs. I always thought his term Elektra was referencing a woman who encouraged or represented sinful behavior and moved him further away from God. I didn’t think that people who followed a specific religion also believed in Mythology or Mythological Gods/Goddesses.


I don't understand?

Prince always used 'non Christian' images and non Christian beliefs.

The Rainbow Children that people call his JW album is more a mix of Gnostic beliefs and Egyptology



Prince started using Egyptology heavily starting in the mid 90s onward into Revelation



Prince has tons of songs released and unreleased that use 'non Christian' references



When you read the opening lyrics to the Ladder it is not referencing a Greek story or a Princess. Elektra was a subject of the kings court. ie Prince and Jill (Purple Court) Elektra of the Ladder was not the kings daughter, she was a subject who clearly was in love with the king. Also 'sin' as used in the Ladder would not be 'sin' of Greek religion.



In Greek mythology, Elektra (/ɪˈlɛktrə/; Greek: Ἠλέκτρα, Ēlektra, "amber") was the daughter of King Agamemnon and Queen Clytemnestra, and thus princess of Argos. She and her brother Orestes plotted revenge against their mother Clytemnestra and stepfather Aegisthus for the murder of their father.


I have to disagree though. Really the majority of his lyrics speak to his Christian faith - going back to him reciting the Lord’s Prayer in the middle of Controversy, then his theatrical conversation with God in the PR tour along with the back masking on the song Darling Nikki, then the entire LoveSexy theme and message (God is love, love is God), Graffiti Bridge with Ingrid Chavez’s character being the Angel sent from Heaven to show him the way - and on and on...
*
Same with The Ladder, which was written around the same time as God. The “ladder” was symbolic of having to walk through life’s trials and tribulations - climbing all the steps - before making it to Heaven. Regarding “Elektra” and what woman she may have represented - could have been Vanity too, or Susan. He had many “subjects who had loved him with a passion uncontested” by that point.
*
With regard to The Rainbow Children - I believe this was the album that Prince was promoting when he had the fan listening parties at PP and invited Kevin Smith to film those discussions. Kevin stated that Prince was carrying around his Bible and preaching his JW beliefs during these discussions with the fans. Prince was also preaching about his JW faith during his shows. Nothing about Mythology during that period.
*
He definitely had interest in Egyptian culture and history but I think his core beliefs were always based on his faith in his religion.
[Edited 4/16/19 19:03pm]
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Reply #132 posted 04/20/19 9:37pm

OldFriends4Sal
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violetcrush said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I don't understand?

Prince always used 'non Christian' images and non Christian beliefs.

The Rainbow Children that people call his JW album is more a mix of Gnostic beliefs and Egyptology

Prince started using Egyptology heavily starting in the mid 90s onward into Revelation

Prince has tons of songs released and unreleased that use 'non Christian' references

When you read the opening lyrics to the Ladder it is not referencing a Greek story or a Princess. Elektra was a subject of the kings court. ie Prince and Jill (Purple Court) Elektra of the Ladder was not the kings daughter, she was a subject who clearly was in love with the king. Also 'sin' as used in the Ladder would not be 'sin' of Greek religion.

In Greek mythology, Elektra (/ɪˈlɛktrə/; Greek: Ἠλέκτρα, Ēlektra, "amber") was the daughter of King Agamemnon and Queen Clytemnestra, and thus princess of Argos. She and her brother Orestes plotted revenge against their mother Clytemnestra and stepfather Aegisthus for the murder of their father.

I have to disagree though. Really the majority of his lyrics speak to his Christian faith - going back to him reciting the Lord’s Prayer in the middle of Controversy, then his theatrical conversation with God in the PR tour along with the back masking on the song Darling Nikki, then the entire LoveSexy theme and message (God is love, love is God), Graffiti Bridge with Ingrid Chavez’s character being the Angel sent from Heaven to show him the way - and on and on... * Same with The Ladder, which was written around the same time as God. The “ladder” was symbolic of having to walk through life’s trials and tribulations - climbing all the steps - before making it to Heaven. Regarding “Elektra” and what woman she may have represented - could have been Vanity too, or Susan. He had many “subjects who had loved him with a passion uncontested” by that point. * With regard to The Rainbow Children - I believe this was the album that Prince was promoting when he had the fan listening parties at PP and invited Kevin Smith to film those discussions. Kevin stated that Prince was carrying around his Bible and preaching his JW beliefs during these discussions with the fans. Prince was also preaching about his JW faith during his shows. Nothing about Mythology during that period. * He definitely had interest in Egyptian culture and history but I think his core beliefs were always based on his faith in his religion. [Edited 4/16/19 19:03pm]

I never said the majority of lyrics were not 'Christian' in origin.

All I said was "Prince always used 'non Christian' images and non Christian beliefs." Of course I know he mostly came from a 'christian' stance lol

Apollonia

Adonis and Bathsheba(Hebrew): Adonis (/əˈdɒnɪs, əˈdoʊnɪs/; Greek: Ἄδωνις) is a divine figure in Greek mythology. His legend possibly derives from ancient Canaanite religion; the ancient Greeks themselves believed him to be of oriental origin.[1] He is portrayed as a beautiful youth and his cult was associated with fertility.

"Glam Slam Ulysses was a 1993 musical production by Prince, loosely based on Homer's Odyssey, featuring a combination of live performances and video, with thirteen previously unreleased songs.

As listed on a flier for the production, the story elements were represented by the following songs:

Story elementSong The Ship "Strays of the World" Lotus Land "Dolphin" The Cyclops "Interactive" Circe "Pheromone" Penelope "Dark" Hades "Loose" The Sirens "Space" Scylla "What's My Name" Calypso "Endorphinemachine" The Suitors "Race" The Trojan Horse "

And so many other songs referencing other beliefs, he's always mixed stuff in.



But more increasingly in the latter 90s into the 2000s it was peppered with Egyptiology. And Rainbow Children is a mix of Gnostic text, Jehovah's Witness belief and Egyptology.

Reincarnation was a continuing theme in his music.

Naw, Elekta in the Ladder clearly hints at Jill Jones. -unrequited love- She's Always In My Hair...


#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence
I will make you cyber shit in your pants!
What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In
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Reply #133 posted 04/21/19 6:37pm

violetcrush

OldFriends4Sale said:

violetcrush said:

OldFriends4Sale said: I have to disagree though. Really the majority of his lyrics speak to his Christian faith - going back to him reciting the Lord’s Prayer in the middle of Controversy, then his theatrical conversation with God in the PR tour along with the back masking on the song Darling Nikki, then the entire LoveSexy theme and message (God is love, love is God), Graffiti Bridge with Ingrid Chavez’s character being the Angel sent from Heaven to show him the way - and on and on... * Same with The Ladder, which was written around the same time as God. The “ladder” was symbolic of having to walk through life’s trials and tribulations - climbing all the steps - before making it to Heaven. Regarding “Elektra” and what woman she may have represented - could have been Vanity too, or Susan. He had many “subjects who had loved him with a passion uncontested” by that point. * With regard to The Rainbow Children - I believe this was the album that Prince was promoting when he had the fan listening parties at PP and invited Kevin Smith to film those discussions. Kevin stated that Prince was carrying around his Bible and preaching his JW beliefs during these discussions with the fans. Prince was also preaching about his JW faith during his shows. Nothing about Mythology during that period. * He definitely had interest in Egyptian culture and history but I think his core beliefs were always based on his faith in his religion. [Edited 4/16/19 19:03pm]

I never said the majority of lyrics were not 'Christian' in origin.

All I said was "Prince always used 'non Christian' images and non Christian beliefs." Of course I know he mostly came from a 'christian' stance lol

Apollonia

Adonis and Bathsheba(Hebrew): Adonis (/əˈdɒnɪs, əˈdoʊnɪs/; Greek: Ἄδωνις) is a divine figure in Greek mythology. His legend possibly derives from ancient Canaanite religion; the ancient Greeks themselves believed him to be of oriental origin.[1] He is portrayed as a beautiful youth and his cult was associated with fertility.

"Glam Slam Ulysses was a 1993 musical production by Prince, loosely based on Homer's Odyssey, featuring a combination of live performances and video, with thirteen previously unreleased songs.

As listed on a flier for the production, the story elements were represented by the following songs:

Story elementSong The Ship "Strays of the World" Lotus Land "Dolphin" The Cyclops "Interactive" Circe "Pheromone" Penelope "Dark" Hades "Loose" The Sirens "Space" Scylla "What's My Name" Calypso "Endorphinemachine" The Suitors "Race" The Trojan Horse "

And so many other songs referencing other beliefs, he's always mixed stuff in.

But more increasingly in the latter 90s into the 2000s it was peppered with Egyptiology. And Rainbow Children is a mix of Gnostic text, Jehovah's Witness belief and Egyptology.

Reincarnation was a continuing theme in his music.

Naw, Elekta in the Ladder clearly hints at Jill Jones. -unrequited love- She's Always In My Hair...

Yes, he did "dabble" in other themes and had some songs relating to mythology - although interestingly Adonis & Bathsheba was never released and Glam Slam Ulysses never went anywhere. So, while he occasionally wrote about those things his core interest was always connected to his Christian faith.

*

I still think The Rainbow Children was primarily his expression of his newfound JW faith and his effort to "spread the word" to his fans. I think in the song Muse 2 The Pharoah Prince was using "the Pharoah" (aka Prince/King) to describe himself, and what it takes to become his "muse" or "Queen". It was more just word play than meant to be deeply rooted in Egyptian history.

*

If like Sheba, she then could bring presents and wine
The helix, he might get between them in other words, intertwine
With the ebony and milk of her thighs
If she could be muse and let him decide
Perhaps, she'll let him decide, she could be muse to the Pharaoh
There is nothing he wouldn't give her see
For the future of the nation rests in her belly
And if the Proverbs of the 31 and verse 10
Becomes the song she sings again and again
She might be queen

*

The above bolded text - Proverbs 31:10 is "A wife of noble character who can find? She is worth far more than rubies"

*

So he was still quoting biblical text within the Egyptian word play. In 1+1+1 is 3 he's talking about the JW belief of the "theocratic order" - God then man then woman:

*

There's a theocratic order
There's a theocratic order now

[Verse 2]
This is how it's going to be
If u want to be with me
Ain't no room for disagree
1+1+1 is 3

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Reply #134 posted 04/22/19 6:11am

OldFriends4Sal
e

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violetcrush said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I never said the majority of lyrics were not 'Christian' in origin.

All I said was "Prince always used 'non Christian' images and non Christian beliefs." Of course I know he mostly came from a 'christian' stance lol

Apollonia

Adonis and Bathsheba(Hebrew): Adonis (/əˈdɒnɪs, əˈdoʊnɪs/; Greek: Ἄδωνις) is a divine figure in Greek mythology. His legend possibly derives from ancient Canaanite religion; the ancient Greeks themselves believed him to be of oriental origin.[1] He is portrayed as a beautiful youth and his cult was associated with fertility.

"Glam Slam Ulysses was a 1993 musical production by Prince, loosely based on Homer's Odyssey, featuring a combination of live performances and video, with thirteen previously unreleased songs.

As listed on a flier for the production, the story elements were represented by the following songs:

Story elementSong The Ship "Strays of the World" Lotus Land "Dolphin" The Cyclops "Interactive" Circe "Pheromone" Penelope "Dark" Hades "Loose" The Sirens "Space" Scylla "What's My Name" Calypso "Endorphinemachine" The Suitors "Race" The Trojan Horse "

And so many other songs referencing other beliefs, he's always mixed stuff in.

But more increasingly in the latter 90s into the 2000s it was peppered with Egyptiology. And Rainbow Children is a mix of Gnostic text, Jehovah's Witness belief and Egyptology.

Reincarnation was a continuing theme in his music.

Naw, Elekta in the Ladder clearly hints at Jill Jones. -unrequited love- She's Always In My Hair...

Yes, he did "dabble" in other themes and had some songs relating to mythology - although interestingly Adonis & Bathsheba was never released and Glam Slam Ulysses never went anywhere. So, while he occasionally wrote about those things his core interest was always connected to his Christian faith.

*

I still think The Rainbow Children was primarily his expression of his newfound JW faith and his effort to "spread the word" to his fans. I think in the song Muse 2 The Pharoah Prince was using "the Pharoah" (aka Prince/King) to describe himself, and what it takes to become his "muse" or "Queen". It was more just word play than meant to be deeply rooted in Egyptian history.

*

If like Sheba, she then could bring presents and wine
The helix, he might get between them in other words, intertwine
With the ebony and milk of her thighs
If she could be muse and let him decide
Perhaps, she'll let him decide, she could be muse to the Pharaoh
There is nothing he wouldn't give her see
For the future of the nation rests in her belly
And if the Proverbs of the 31 and verse 10
Becomes the song she sings again and again
She might be queen

*

The above bolded text - Proverbs 31:10 is "A wife of noble character who can find? She is worth far more than rubies"

*

So he was still quoting biblical text within the Egyptian word play. In 1+1+1 is 3 he's talking about the JW belief of the "theocratic order" - God then man then woman:

*

There's a theocratic order
There's a theocratic order now

[Verse 2]
This is how it's going to be
If u want to be with me
Ain't no room for disagree
1+1+1 is 3

But that is all I'm saying violetcrush, that he mixed in other beliefs and ideas. He did his Princeology thing. Unreleased or not, everything shows something of what he was expressing.
.
Also think of Others Here With Us, and Venus de Milo -which when you look further into the background of Under the Cherry Moon, Venus the Roman/Greek goddess of love played a bigger part behind the scenes.

.

Well didn't he converst sometime in the latter 90s? Again violetcrush, Yes, as I said Rainbow Children was a mix of he Jehovah's Witnesss beliefs, but also Egyptologgy and some Christian Gnostic text. I don't think the Jehovah's Witness elders would say mixing those other two would be an express of Jehovah's Witness beliefs. Maybe that is why they shut down his attempt to go further into it with a follow up.

.
In the One(song/video) from 1998 it makes reference to Prince being Akhenaten and Mayte being Nefertiti(secret messages)
.

the talk of the two wives (obviously this is the story of Prince and Mayte seperating and him marrying Manuella) but the first wife, Prince is pulling from the gnostic belief of Lilith.
So it really isn't about his Jehovah's Witness faith. This albums story, lyrically is very similiar to interview by 0+> in 1999 when he talked about contracts and deeds, going back to the garden, deception etc also talk of record companies being the serpent and artists being the innocent children of Adam and Eve or something

.

As prophesied, the Wise One and his woman were tempted by the Resistor. He,
knowing full well the Wise One's love 4 God, assimilated the woman first and
only. Quite naturally, chaos ensued and she and 5 others were banished from
the rainbow.4ever.

The Wise One who understood the law that was handed down from God long ago,
held fast in his belief that the Lord would bring him another one who loved him so.

The Banished Ones approaching the palace shouted obscenities. They tried 2
confuse the Rainbow Children and dethron their king. Using the lies promoted
by the whosepapers, hellavisions, and scagazines- The Banished Ones
constructed a Digital Garden around the palace that extended throughout the
world. Furthermore they demanded compensation 4 their time spent in the
palace b4 the exile. This was noise! "So be it," said the Wise One, and
gladly obliged with an INVISIBLE DEED. The Banished Ones accepted and
returned to their place of birth in MendaCity. As 4 the Rainbow Children,
they began deconstructing the Digital Garden. Door to door they went in
search of those willing to do The Work

.

From all over, the people came 2 do The Work. And with every phase of the
deconstruction the Everlasting Now became evermore reality. Everywhere the
people were witnessing a change, but the alchemy occurred most in the Muse.

.

To all his good brothers
The Wise One spoke highly of his Muse,
Because her love for the one true God
Was growing with every passing day.
So he said, "to all a good night",
Sent them to bed early and invited his Muse to join him in
The sensual ever after

.
As she fell in2 the Sensual Everafter, out of bodyout of mind,
she stroked her hair a hundred times.
And as she fell deeper in2 the hypnotic unwind, he counted his way in2 the suggestive mind.
Planting a seed that bears fruit on the tree,
he said, repeat after me.repeat after me.repeat after me.1+1+1 is 3

.

One after the other, the Banished Ones fled
As they watched from the distance
The destruction of the Digital Garden

With no more fruit to bear from its trees
The Haze was finally broken
With the rains came the awareness that never again
Would anyone ever lay claim to the treasures of the Rainbow Children

As though awakened from a dream
The Muse opened her eyes
This time as Queen

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence
I will make you cyber shit in your pants!
What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In
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Reply #135 posted 04/22/19 6:43am

violetcrush

OldFriends4Sale said:



violetcrush said:




OldFriends4Sale said:




I never said the majority of lyrics were not 'Christian' in origin.

All I said was "Prince always used 'non Christian' images and non Christian beliefs." Of course I know he mostly came from a 'christian' stance lol



Apollonia


Adonis and Bathsheba(Hebrew): Adonis (/əˈdɒnɪs, əˈdoʊnɪs/; Greek: Ἄδωνις) is a divine figure in Greek mythology. His legend possibly derives from ancient Canaanite religion; the ancient Greeks themselves believed him to be of oriental origin.[1] He is portrayed as a beautiful youth and his cult was associated with fertility.



"Glam Slam Ulysses was a 1993 musical production by Prince, loosely based on Homer's Odyssey, featuring a combination of live performances and video, with thirteen previously unreleased songs.


As listed on a flier for the production, the story elements were represented by the following songs:


Story elementSong The Ship "Strays of the World" Lotus Land "Dolphin" The Cyclops "Interactive" Circe "Pheromone" Penelope "Dark" Hades "Loose" The Sirens "Space" Scylla "What's My Name" Calypso "Endorphinemachine" The Suitors "Race" The Trojan Horse "



And so many other songs referencing other beliefs, he's always mixed stuff in.






But more increasingly in the latter 90s into the 2000s it was peppered with Egyptiology. And Rainbow Children is a mix of Gnostic text, Jehovah's Witness belief and Egyptology.



Reincarnation was a continuing theme in his music.



Naw, Elekta in the Ladder clearly hints at Jill Jones. -unrequited love- She's Always In My Hair...






Yes, he did "dabble" in other themes and had some songs relating to mythology - although interestingly Adonis & Bathsheba was never released and Glam Slam Ulysses never went anywhere. So, while he occasionally wrote about those things his core interest was always connected to his Christian faith.


*


I still think The Rainbow Children was primarily his expression of his newfound JW faith and his effort to "spread the word" to his fans. I think in the song Muse 2 The Pharoah Prince was using "the Pharoah" (aka Prince/King) to describe himself, and what it takes to become his "muse" or "Queen". It was more just word play than meant to be deeply rooted in Egyptian history.


*


If like Sheba, she then could bring presents and wine
The helix, he might get between them in other words, intertwine
With the ebony and milk of her thighs
If she could be muse and let him decide
Perhaps, she'll let him decide, she could be muse to the Pharaoh
There is nothing he wouldn't give her see
For the future of the nation rests in her belly
And if the Proverbs of the 31 and verse 10
Becomes the song she sings again and again
She might be queen


*


The above bolded text - Proverbs 31:10 is "A wife of noble character who can find? She is worth far more than rubies"


*


So he was still quoting biblical text within the Egyptian word play. In 1+1+1 is 3 he's talking about the JW belief of the "theocratic order" - God then man then woman:


*


There's a theocratic order
There's a theocratic order now

[Verse 2]
This is how it's going to be
If u want to be with me
Ain't no room for disagree
1+1+1 is 3





But that is all I'm saying violetcrush, that he mixed in other beliefs and ideas. He did his Princeology thing. Unreleased or not, everything shows something of what he was expressing.
.
Also think of Others Here With Us, and Venus de Milo -which when you look further into the background of Under the Cherry Moon, Venus the Roman/Greek goddess of love played a bigger part behind the scenes.


.


Well didn't he converst sometime in the latter 90s? Again violetcrush, Yes, as I said Rainbow Children was a mix of he Jehovah's Witnesss beliefs, but also Egyptologgy and some Christian Gnostic text. I don't think the Jehovah's Witness elders would say mixing those other two would be an express of Jehovah's Witness beliefs. Maybe that is why they shut down his attempt to go further into it with a follow up.


.
In the One(song/video) from 1998 it makes reference to Prince being Akhenaten and Mayte being Nefertiti(secret messages)
.


the talk of the two wives (obviously this is the story of Prince and Mayte seperating and him marrying Manuella) but the first wife, Prince is pulling from the gnostic belief of Lilith.
So it really isn't about his Jehovah's Witness faith. This albums story, lyrically is very similiar to interview by 0+> in 1999 when he talked about contracts and deeds, going back to the garden, deception etc also talk of record companies being the serpent and artists being the innocent children of Adam and Eve or something


.


As prophesied, the Wise One and his woman were tempted by the Resistor. He,
knowing full well the Wise One's love 4 God, assimilated the woman first and
only. Quite naturally, chaos ensued and she and 5 others were banished from
the rainbow.4ever.

The Wise One who understood the law that was handed down from God long ago,
held fast in his belief that the Lord would bring him another one who loved him so.



The Banished Ones approaching the palace shouted obscenities. They tried 2
confuse the Rainbow Children and dethron their king. Using the lies promoted
by the whosepapers, hellavisions, and scagazines- The Banished Ones
constructed a Digital Garden around the palace that extended throughout the
world. Furthermore they demanded compensation 4 their time spent in the
palace b4 the exile. This was noise! "So be it," said the Wise One, and
gladly obliged with an INVISIBLE DEED. The Banished Ones accepted and
returned to their place of birth in MendaCity. As 4 the Rainbow Children,
they began deconstructing the Digital Garden. Door to door they went in
search of those willing to do The Work


.


From all over, the people came 2 do The Work. And with every phase of the
deconstruction the Everlasting Now became evermore reality. Everywhere the
people were witnessing a change, but the alchemy occurred most in the Muse.


.


To all his good brothers
The Wise One spoke highly of his Muse,
Because her love for the one true God
Was growing with every passing day.
So he said, "to all a good night",
Sent them to bed early and invited his Muse to join him in
The sensual ever after


.
As she fell in2 the Sensual Everafter, out of bodyout of mind,
she stroked her hair a hundred times.
And as she fell deeper in2 the hypnotic unwind, he counted his way in2 the suggestive mind.
Planting a seed that bears fruit on the tree,
he said, repeat after me.repeat after me.repeat after me.1+1+1 is 3


.


One after the other, the Banished Ones fled
As they watched from the distance
The destruction of the Digital Garden


With no more fruit to bear from its trees
The Haze was finally broken
With the rains came the awareness that never again
Would anyone ever lay claim to the treasures of the Rainbow Children


As though awakened from a dream
The Muse opened her eyes
This time as Queen




Honestly, I always looked at the lyrics above as just his cryptic and artistic way of explaining that Mayte was out because she did not want to convert to the JW faith, and Manuela was chosen because she followed his faith and converted with him.

*

Yes, he definitely was studying the JW faith with Larry Graham during the late 90’s and began “preaching” those beliefs (1998 Essence awards when he changed The Cross to The Christ and talked about Stauros before singing the song) but I believe he did not officially convert to JW until 2000-2001.
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Reply #136 posted 04/22/19 7:24pm

fakir

Shame JJ didn't sell well.

In fact her video clip "Mia Bocca" did well in Europe (Italy, France). She was appearing on some european tv shows.

In my humble opinion, i think it's one of the best P protege's output til now (incl Mavi Staples "Time waits for no one").

The Ignorant asserts,The learned doubts,The wise thinks.

Aristotle
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Reply #137 posted 04/23/19 1:21pm

SoulAlive

In America,the first sign of trouble came when the leadoff single "Mia Bocca" was released.MTV refused to air the video because they thought the song was too suugestive.

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Reply #138 posted 04/23/19 2:21pm

violetcrush

SoulAlive said:

In America,the first sign of trouble came when the leadoff single "Mia Bocca" was released.MTV refused to air the video because they thought the song was too suugestive.

Well, to be fair....there's the lyric "I've only had one lover since I was 12 yrs old.." razz eek

*

Guessing they didn't want the Washington Wives and Parent Police on their backs for airing that one biggrin

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Reply #139 posted 04/23/19 2:34pm

SoulAlive

lol

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Reply #140 posted 04/23/19 10:08pm

ladygirl99

I think Jill was trying to following Prince's footsteps of not being know as the 'black artist' but an artist even though she was mixed yet a blue-eyed soulful voice. She had accessible to industry connections prior to meeting Prince that could helped her music career. From her Moms (she managed Teena Marie) to Teena Marie herself and plus the Gordy family/Motown connection (since her mother was married to Berry Gordy's brother). She had easily could had worked with Rick James (who she said in an interview she used to see him at her house after school with Teena Marie), but she shy away from that. But those connections focused on strictly R&B and I always thought of Jill as a free agent who didn't want to be boxed into an RB/soul artist just because she is half-black. That was why she bonded with Prince more because he refused to limit himself musically and socially.

And also another reason is like people stated on this thread and I stated in my previous posts about Jill and why she was never a success with Prince; she wasn't a prior to Prince. She was his unrequited lover. Yup from the chick who called Prince for a job that landed being a very low paid undervaluled studio vocal sessionist to the girl was patient and left for New York in 1985 while Prince to return back around 1987 with lukewarm promotion on her debut and then final around Graffiti Bridge era and he threatened to replace her and told her to get a boob job.

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Reply #141 posted 04/23/19 10:33pm

Mikado

ladygirl99 said:

I think Jill was trying to following Prince's footsteps of not being know as the 'black artist' but an artist even though she was mixed yet a blue-eyed soulful voice. She had accessible to industry connections prior to meeting Prince that could helped her music career. From her Moms (she managed Teena Marie) to Teena Marie herself and plus the Gordy family/Motown connection (since her mother was married to Berry Gordy's brother). She had easily could had worked with Rick James (who she said in an interview she used to see him at her house after school with Teena Marie), but she shy away from that. But those connections focused on strictly R&B and I always thought of Jill as a free agent who didn't want to be boxed into an RB/soul artist just because she is half-black. That was why she bonded with Prince more because he refused to limit himself musically and socially.

And also another reason is like people stated on this thread and I stated in my previous posts about Jill and why she was never a success with Prince; she wasn't a prior to Prince. She was his unrequited lover. Yup from the chick who called Prince for a job that landed being a very low paid undervaluled studio vocal sessionist to the girl was patient and left for New York in 1985 while Prince to return back around 1987 with lukewarm promotion on her debut and then final around Graffiti Bridge era and he threatened to replace her and told her to get a boob job.


To be fair, Jill didn't really look that black - she had a unique look. But I imagine she could have done a lot of things if she didn't get involved with Prince in the way she did.

A certain kind of mellow.
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Reply #142 posted 04/23/19 11:01pm

ladygirl99

Mikado said:

ladygirl99 said:

I think Jill was trying to following Prince's footsteps of not being know as the 'black artist' but an artist even though she was mixed yet a blue-eyed soulful voice. She had accessible to industry connections prior to meeting Prince that could helped her music career. From her Moms (she managed Teena Marie) to Teena Marie herself and plus the Gordy family/Motown connection (since her mother was married to Berry Gordy's brother). She had easily could had worked with Rick James (who she said in an interview she used to see him at her house after school with Teena Marie), but she shy away from that. But those connections focused on strictly R&B and I always thought of Jill as a free agent who didn't want to be boxed into an RB/soul artist just because she is half-black. That was why she bonded with Prince more because he refused to limit himself musically and socially.

And also another reason is like people stated on this thread and I stated in my previous posts about Jill and why she was never a success with Prince; she wasn't a prior to Prince. She was his unrequited lover. Yup from the chick who called Prince for a job that landed being a very low paid undervaluled studio vocal sessionist to the girl was patient and left for New York in 1985 while Prince to return back around 1987 with lukewarm promotion on her debut and then final around Graffiti Bridge era and he threatened to replace her and told her to get a boob job.


To be fair, Jill didn't really look that black - she had a unique look. But I imagine she could have done a lot of things if she didn't get involved with Prince in the way she did.

I always knew Jill was biracial even though she consider herself to be more black than biracial (even when she dyed her hair blonde) to the point when I was in high school in the late 90s I pracially laughed at some online article that described Jill as Latin American and Italian descent no mentioned about her black heritage whatsoever.

Her hair texture and lips and yellowish skin tone were a dead giveaway to me. When I saw her Mia Bocca era pictures and videos, it just only comfirmed that chick is black because of her loose 3c type hair (that type is common with biracials) and because it was more noticable. Maybe because I picked it up quickly due to the fact some of my black associates and friends looked like Jill. Hell I even picked up white passing people too of their black ancestry by the way they look and I was right as it was confirmed by some DNA test.

It is weird that only America Jill is black due to the dumb one drop rule but if she gone to other countries she would consider to be a white lady whether she liked it or not. However you right people won't believe she is black here in the USA unless she said it. I read one of Jill's Facebook post awhile back and she had an altercation with some driver over parking space in LA and he shouted 'Stupid White lady to her' or something like that. USA's illogical racial classification. SMH.

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Reply #143 posted 04/24/19 4:22am

violetcrush

ladygirl99 said:

Mikado said:


To be fair, Jill didn't really look that black - she had a unique look. But I imagine she could have done a lot of things if she didn't get involved with Prince in the way she did.

I always knew Jill was biracial even though she consider herself to be more black than biracial (even when she dyed her hair blonde) to the point when I was in high school in the late 90s I pracially laughed at some online article that described Jill as Latin American and Italian descent no mentioned about her black heritage whatsoever.

Her hair texture and lips and yellowish skin tone were a dead giveaway to me. When I saw her Mia Bocca era pictures and videos, it just only comfirmed that chick is black because of her loose 3c type hair (that type is common with biracials) and because it was more noticable. Maybe because I picked it up quickly due to the fact some of my black associates and friends looked like Jill. Hell I even picked up white passing people too of their black ancestry by the way they look and I was right as it was confirmed by some DNA test.

It is weird that only America Jill is black due to the dumb one drop rule but if she gone to other countries she would consider to be a white lady whether she liked it or not. However you right people won't believe she is black here in the USA unless she said it. I read one of Jill's Facebook post awhile back and she had an altercation with some driver over parking space in LA and he shouted 'Stupid White lady to her' or something like that. USA's illogical racial classification. SMH.

I gotta disagree with you on this one smile I'm a white female (half Italian, half Scandinavian heritage), and I was 15 when 1999 was released. If you watch the 1999 video with Jill in the black underwear and "Marilyn Monroe" hair - there is nothing that makes you think, "oh I think this chick is bi-racial". She also has light eyes and very fair skin. I have dark brown eyes and back then I had long dark wavy hair and my lips are on the "fuller" side. I also am darker complected than Jill. I actually looked more bi-racial than she did.

*

In Purple Rain, again, she had the same look, but was playing the "stuck-up white girl character who was jealous of Apollonia. Not much was known about her backround then, so most thought she was white, especially watching her next to Apollonia in the film.

*

I saw a live performance she did - I think in maybe '87 or '88. She still had the blonde hair, but it was longer and kinky/wavy. She still looked more white than bi-racial. And in the video for Mia Bocca - to me she looks more Latin American, Spanish or Italian than black. There are many people of different races who have dark wavy/curly hair. The video was shot in black and white which made her skin look even lighter.

*

So, it has less to do with the USA's racial classifications, and more to do with her appearance, as well as, most Prince fans at that time not knowing anything about her racial/ethnic background.

[Edited 4/24/19 4:40am]

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Reply #144 posted 04/24/19 6:29am

ladygirl99

violetcrush said:

ladygirl99 said:

I always knew Jill was biracial even though she consider herself to be more black than biracial (even when she dyed her hair blonde) to the point when I was in high school in the late 90s I pracially laughed at some online article that described Jill as Latin American and Italian descent no mentioned about her black heritage whatsoever.

Her hair texture and lips and yellowish skin tone were a dead giveaway to me. When I saw her Mia Bocca era pictures and videos, it just only comfirmed that chick is black because of her loose 3c type hair (that type is common with biracials) and because it was more noticable. Maybe because I picked it up quickly due to the fact some of my black associates and friends looked like Jill. Hell I even picked up white passing people too of their black ancestry by the way they look and I was right as it was confirmed by some DNA test.

It is weird that only America Jill is black due to the dumb one drop rule but if she gone to other countries she would consider to be a white lady whether she liked it or not. However you right people won't believe she is black here in the USA unless she said it. I read one of Jill's Facebook post awhile back and she had an altercation with some driver over parking space in LA and he shouted 'Stupid White lady to her' or something like that. USA's illogical racial classification. SMH.

I gotta disagree with you on this one smile I'm a white female (half Italian, half Scandinavian heritage), and I was 15 when 1999 was released. If you watch the 1999 video with Jill in the black underwear and "Marilyn Monroe" hair - there is nothing that makes you think, "oh I think this chick is bi-racial". She also has light eyes and very fair skin. I have dark brown eyes and back then I had long dark wavy hair and my lips are on the "fuller" side. I also am darker complected than Jill. I actually looked more bi-racial than she did.

*

In Purple Rain, again, she had the same look, but was playing the "stuck-up white girl character who was jealous of Apollonia. Not much was known about her backround then, so most thought she was white, especially watching her next to Apollonia in the film.

*

I saw a live performance she did - I think in maybe '87 or '88. She still had the blonde hair, but it was longer and kinky/wavy. She still looked more white than bi-racial. And in the video for Mia Bocca - to me she looks more Latin American, Spanish or Italian than black. There are many people of different races who have dark wavy/curly hair. The video was shot in black and white which made her skin look even lighter.

*

So, it has less to do with the USA's racial classifications, and more to do with her appearance, as well as, most Prince fans at that time not knowing anything about her racial/ethnic background.

[Edited 4/24/19 4:40am]

We agree to disagree. You have no business telling me what I observed when I first saw Jill. If you saw Jill as a white chick thats your observation. As I stated before I came across black people that looked like Jill and they confirmed they had black ancestry and they identify their black side because they felt more connected to it or because their white family rejected them and primarily was raised by blacks. One of my best friends in school looked like Jill with white skinned and but her hair was reddish brown and permed and coarse. And also not white people or white skinned people with black ancestry have the typical "dark eyes,wavy hair, full lips". Like my friend she had thinner lips and reddish brown hair and I still picked up she got some black ancestry due to her straight coarse hair and when she told me she has a black father I was right. I had another buddy too looked like Jill as far as the white skinned and my friend in school too (his hair was reddish brown, white skin can easily passed) and he told me he had a black father and he struggled with identity crisis. I think my eyes became wide open because Jennifer Beals from Flashdance fooled a lot of people into thinking she was a white woman and years later when her career cooled off, she admitted she had a black father. Jennifer considered herself to be multiracial.

In 1999 video, her hair was permed and straight and styled like a black chick with blonde hair plus she had big lips and dark eyes and yellowish skin tone gave me a suspection she was a woman of color at least. Just like Lisa Coleman when I first saw Lisa on Purple Rain, I thought she was a woman of color (maybe Latin or Native American) and Lisa confirmed years later her late mother was Mexican and lot of Mexicans have European and Indian ancestry. And I had another classmate got mad at me when I asked him what was he as he looked ethnic looked sort of like Keanu Reeves. lol and it was confirmed he was half Asian. Its these type of things I tend to pick up quickly than others. It is hard to describe to a non-black person who knows little about the black/biracial hair culture about picking up right away that white skinned indiviual has some black ancestry. Its about feeling more than logic.

That is why I picked up quickly that Jill had some black ancestry because I had been around whites skinned people who told me they had a black great grandmother/grandfather and black genes are strong and it becomes noticable of the descendants of white passing people.

And also Italian is not a race and some Italians (Jill is also half Italian too) have black ancestry too as I read and heard. There are books about this too. But then again I am not too knowledge about the Italian culture thats for you to school me. lol

Yeah passing as white is fasination topic to explore and I love reading that topic, and my favorite book is Nella Larsen Passing and stories about Blue Vein Society in the south (mixed race blacks trying to assimiulate into white society). lol People would think it is weird for me to read tons of books about multiracial/biracials and the ones who pass because both of my parents are black but however socially I can relate to their struggles with racial identity crisis. But I am glad that Jill reminds people she is black and she refused to pass as it makes her not being ashame of her black culture. She could had easily passed but people like us would always be suspecting lol. So props to her for not 'taking the easy way out'. I am sure she struggled with her identity all of her life (heck I struggled being black and I am monoracial black because to white supremists I am too black and to black extremists I am not black enough) so oddly I can relate to biracials more than mainstream blacks who is my skin tone and that is why I have a special heart of biracials (especially white and black ones). Prince also struggled with his race identity but he became more comfortable identify his blackness and that is why I became a Prince fan in the first place you can't easily put him in a black box. And as a black queer woman, people called me weird because I am not some stereotypical black chick. I laughed when people put me in a box. I think that plays why Jill's album didn't do well here in the States because people in this country loves putting black chicks in fucking boxes to make themselves feel good. lol

[Edited 4/24/19 6:52am]

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Reply #145 posted 04/24/19 7:11am

OldFriends4Sal
e

avatar

moderator

Mikado said:

ladygirl99 said:

I think Jill was trying to following Prince's footsteps of not being know as the 'black artist' but an artist even though she was mixed yet a blue-eyed soulful voice. She had accessible to industry connections prior to meeting Prince that could helped her music career. From her Moms (she managed Teena Marie) to Teena Marie herself and plus the Gordy family/Motown connection (since her mother was married to Berry Gordy's brother). She had easily could had worked with Rick James (who she said in an interview she used to see him at her house after school with Teena Marie), but she shy away from that. But those connections focused on strictly R&B and I always thought of Jill as a free agent who didn't want to be boxed into an RB/soul artist just because she is half-black. That was why she bonded with Prince more because he refused to limit himself musically and socially.

And also another reason is like people stated on this thread and I stated in my previous posts about Jill and why she was never a success with Prince; she wasn't a prior to Prince. She was his unrequited lover. Yup from the chick who called Prince for a job that landed being a very low paid undervaluled studio vocal sessionist to the girl was patient and left for New York in 1985 while Prince to return back around 1987 with lukewarm promotion on her debut and then final around Graffiti Bridge era and he threatened to replace her and told her to get a boob job.


To be fair, Jill didn't really look that black - she had a unique look. But I imagine she could have done a lot of things if she didn't get involved with Prince in the way she did.

I agree

and yes she doesn't look black(African) at all. She sometimes looks mixed, other times she looks European

20140061_211079342750245_737744745476069

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#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence
I will make you cyber shit in your pants!
What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In
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Reply #146 posted 04/24/19 1:56pm

violetcrush

ladygirl99 said:

violetcrush said:

I gotta disagree with you on this one smile I'm a white female (half Italian, half Scandinavian heritage), and I was 15 when 1999 was released. If you watch the 1999 video with Jill in the black underwear and "Marilyn Monroe" hair - there is nothing that makes you think, "oh I think this chick is bi-racial". She also has light eyes and very fair skin. I have dark brown eyes and back then I had long dark wavy hair and my lips are on the "fuller" side. I also am darker complected than Jill. I actually looked more bi-racial than she did.

*

In Purple Rain, again, she had the same look, but was playing the "stuck-up white girl character who was jealous of Apollonia. Not much was known about her backround then, so most thought she was white, especially watching her next to Apollonia in the film.

*

I saw a live performance she did - I think in maybe '87 or '88. She still had the blonde hair, but it was longer and kinky/wavy. She still looked more white than bi-racial. And in the video for Mia Bocca - to me she looks more Latin American, Spanish or Italian than black. There are many people of different races who have dark wavy/curly hair. The video was shot in black and white which made her skin look even lighter.

*

So, it has less to do with the USA's racial classifications, and more to do with her appearance, as well as, most Prince fans at that time not knowing anything about her racial/ethnic background.

[Edited 4/24/19 4:40am]

We agree to disagree. You have no business telling me what I observed when I first saw Jill. If you saw Jill as a white chick thats your observation. As I stated before I came across black people that looked like Jill and they confirmed they had black ancestry and they identify their black side because they felt more connected to it or because their white family rejected them and primarily was raised by blacks. One of my best friends in school looked like Jill with white skinned and but her hair was reddish brown and permed and coarse. And also not white people or white skinned people with black ancestry have the typical "dark eyes,wavy hair, full lips". Like my friend she had thinner lips and reddish brown hair and I still picked up she got some black ancestry due to her straight coarse hair and when she told me she has a black father I was right. I had another buddy too looked like Jill as far as the white skinned and my friend in school too (his hair was reddish brown, white skin can easily passed) and he told me he had a black father and he struggled with identity crisis. I think my eyes became wide open because Jennifer Beals from Flashdance fooled a lot of people into thinking she was a white woman and years later when her career cooled off, she admitted she had a black father. Jennifer considered herself to be multiracial.

In 1999 video, her hair was permed and straight and styled like a black chick with blonde hair plus she had big lips and dark eyes and yellowish skin tone gave me a suspection she was a woman of color at least. Just like Lisa Coleman when I first saw Lisa on Purple Rain, I thought she was a woman of color (maybe Latin or Native American) and Lisa confirmed years later her late mother was Mexican and lot of Mexicans have European and Indian ancestry. And I had another classmate got mad at me when I asked him what was he as he looked ethnic looked sort of like Keanu Reeves. lol and it was confirmed he was half Asian. Its these type of things I tend to pick up quickly than others. It is hard to describe to a non-black person who knows little about the black/biracial hair culture about picking up right away that white skinned indiviual has some black ancestry. Its about feeling more than logic.

That is why I picked up quickly that Jill had some black ancestry because I had been around whites skinned people who told me they had a black great grandmother/grandfather and black genes are strong and it becomes noticable of the descendants of white passing people.

And also Italian is not a race and some Italians (Jill is also half Italian too) have black ancestry too as I read and heard. There are books about this too. But then again I am not too knowledge about the Italian culture thats for you to school me. lol

Yeah passing as white is fasination topic to explore and I love reading that topic, and my favorite book is Nella Larsen Passing and stories about Blue Vein Society in the south (mixed race blacks trying to assimiulate into white society). lol People would think it is weird for me to read tons of books about multiracial/biracials and the ones who pass because both of my parents are black but however socially I can relate to their struggles with racial identity crisis. But I am glad that Jill reminds people she is black and she refused to pass as it makes her not being ashame of her black culture. She could had easily passed but people like us would always be suspecting lol. So props to her for not 'taking the easy way out'. I am sure she struggled with her identity all of her life (heck I struggled being black and I am monoracial black because to white supremists I am too black and to black extremists I am not black enough) so oddly I can relate to biracials more than mainstream blacks who is my skin tone and that is why I have a special heart of biracials (especially white and black ones). Prince also struggled with his race identity but he became more comfortable identify his blackness and that is why I became a Prince fan in the first place you can't easily put him in a black box. And as a black queer woman, people called me weird because I am not some stereotypical black chick. I laughed when people put me in a box. I think that plays why Jill's album didn't do well here in the States because people in this country loves putting black chicks in fucking boxes to make themselves feel good. lol

[Edited 4/24/19 6:52am]

I was more disagreeing with your statement about the US being the one to blame for her album and/or videos not being played due to racial issues. I think it's much more to do with the musical trends having changed by the time her record was released than anything else. As OldFriends4Sale has stated in prior threads - had Jill's album been released during the 1984-85 Purple Rain explosion it most likely would have done much better here in the US and also abroad. She was recognizable from being in the film, and the songs were on trend for that time frame. Three years makes a huge difference in the music world. Even Prince was falling behind the trends by 1988-89.

*

Yes, I know Italian is not a race classification - I was mentioning that in relation to describing my physical appearance in comparison to Jill's back then. And yes, I know she is 1/2 Italian and 1/2 black. She stated when she first met Prince and told him he had not heard of that before. Then he did his first interview in Europe in 1980-81 for Dirty Mind (one of the best I've heard) and told the journalist he was 1/2 Italian and 1/2 black biggrin

*

I think bi-racial or multi-racial is awesome and beautiful. I feel as though we (the US) had been moving forward with being more open-minded about this prior to the last election. It's extremely sad that it seems we have been moving backward, and I truly hope we can get back to making forward progress in 2020. It's been very troubling and heartbreaking sad

[Edited 4/24/19 13:57pm]

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Reply #147 posted 04/24/19 2:03pm

violetcrush

Here's a YT video of Jill & Vanity, and also Wendy & Lisa talking about what it meant to work with Prince. Looks to be around 1987-88 time period. Again, it's just my opinion, but I see Jill as a white girl with kinky blonde hair in this clip. The whole "crimping" thing was really big at that time. We would use the crimp iron to make those kinks biggrin And of course, the big haired spiral perm was huge too!

*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=289ClqWeIDg

*

Side note: I could listen to Wendy and Lisa talk all day long. Two very well spoken and smart ladies!

[Edited 4/24/19 14:05pm]

[Edited 4/24/19 14:05pm]

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Reply #148 posted 04/24/19 4:22pm

ladygirl99

violetcrush said:

ladygirl99 said:

We agree to disagree. You have no business telling me what I observed when I first saw Jill. If you saw Jill as a white chick thats your observation. As I stated before I came across black people that looked like Jill and they confirmed they had black ancestry and they identify their black side because they felt more connected to it or because their white family rejected them and primarily was raised by blacks. One of my best friends in school looked like Jill with white skinned and but her hair was reddish brown and permed and coarse. And also not white people or white skinned people with black ancestry have the typical "dark eyes,wavy hair, full lips". Like my friend she had thinner lips and reddish brown hair and I still picked up she got some black ancestry due to her straight coarse hair and when she told me she has a black father I was right. I had another buddy too looked like Jill as far as the white skinned and my friend in school too (his hair was reddish brown, white skin can easily passed) and he told me he had a black father and he struggled with identity crisis. I think my eyes became wide open because Jennifer Beals from Flashdance fooled a lot of people into thinking she was a white woman and years later when her career cooled off, she admitted she had a black father. Jennifer considered herself to be multiracial.

In 1999 video, her hair was permed and straight and styled like a black chick with blonde hair plus she had big lips and dark eyes and yellowish skin tone gave me a suspection she was a woman of color at least. Just like Lisa Coleman when I first saw Lisa on Purple Rain, I thought she was a woman of color (maybe Latin or Native American) and Lisa confirmed years later her late mother was Mexican and lot of Mexicans have European and Indian ancestry. And I had another classmate got mad at me when I asked him what was he as he looked ethnic looked sort of like Keanu Reeves. lol and it was confirmed he was half Asian. Its these type of things I tend to pick up quickly than others. It is hard to describe to a non-black person who knows little about the black/biracial hair culture about picking up right away that white skinned indiviual has some black ancestry. Its about feeling more than logic.

That is why I picked up quickly that Jill had some black ancestry because I had been around whites skinned people who told me they had a black great grandmother/grandfather and black genes are strong and it becomes noticable of the descendants of white passing people.

And also Italian is not a race and some Italians (Jill is also half Italian too) have black ancestry too as I read and heard. There are books about this too. But then again I am not too knowledge about the Italian culture thats for you to school me. lol

Yeah passing as white is fasination topic to explore and I love reading that topic, and my favorite book is Nella Larsen Passing and stories about Blue Vein Society in the south (mixed race blacks trying to assimiulate into white society). lol People would think it is weird for me to read tons of books about multiracial/biracials and the ones who pass because both of my parents are black but however socially I can relate to their struggles with racial identity crisis. But I am glad that Jill reminds people she is black and she refused to pass as it makes her not being ashame of her black culture. She could had easily passed but people like us would always be suspecting lol. So props to her for not 'taking the easy way out'. I am sure she struggled with her identity all of her life (heck I struggled being black and I am monoracial black because to white supremists I am too black and to black extremists I am not black enough) so oddly I can relate to biracials more than mainstream blacks who is my skin tone and that is why I have a special heart of biracials (especially white and black ones). Prince also struggled with his race identity but he became more comfortable identify his blackness and that is why I became a Prince fan in the first place you can't easily put him in a black box. And as a black queer woman, people called me weird because I am not some stereotypical black chick. I laughed when people put me in a box. I think that plays why Jill's album didn't do well here in the States because people in this country loves putting black chicks in fucking boxes to make themselves feel good. lol

[Edited 4/24/19 6:52am]

I was more disagreeing with your statement about the US being the one to blame for her album and/or videos not being played due to racial issues. I think it's much more to do with the musical trends having changed by the time her record was released than anything else. As OldFriends4Sale has stated in prior threads - had Jill's album been released during the 1984-85 Purple Rain explosion it most likely would have done much better here in the US and also abroad. She was recognizable from being in the film, and the songs were on trend for that time frame. Three years makes a huge difference in the music world. Even Prince was falling behind the trends by 1988-89.

*

Yes, I know Italian is not a race classification - I was mentioning that in relation to describing my physical appearance in comparison to Jill's back then. And yes, I know she is 1/2 Italian and 1/2 black. She stated when she first met Prince and told him he had not heard of that before. Then he did his first interview in Europe in 1980-81 for Dirty Mind (one of the best I've heard) and told the journalist he was 1/2 Italian and 1/2 black biggrin

*

I think bi-racial or multi-racial is awesome and beautiful. I feel as though we (the US) had been moving forward with being more open-minded about this prior to the last election. It's extremely sad that it seems we have been moving backward, and I truly hope we can get back to making forward progress in 2020. It's been very troubling and heartbreaking sad

[Edited 4/24/19 13:57pm]

Even with the constant changing of music trends, US still remains segregrate by music and other things, hon. You know black charts now called urban/hip hop radio charts (that target primary black audiences) and top mainstream and pop radio charts (code for targeting white audiences). In other words whether it was 1987 or 2019, despite some progress, artists are still being boxed based on their race as very few black artists able to crossover. Don't believe me ask Lenny Kravitz.. That poor guy, despite being successful, still had dealt with radio heads and radio station executives tried to box him as a black artist even though his style of music was mixture of rock and pop and slow jams and not to mention he was half black. I heard he even tours in Europe more these days. Ask Tina Turner as well she struggled too as record company tried to place her as a black artist and yet some black people rejected her sound as heck I knew some black folks thought her music was too white and didn't care for her solo stuff. And also black artists who didn't fit in a box did better in other countries like Japan and Europe than here in the states. Like I stated before the reason why Jill did better in Europe was beacuse from what I heard Europeans tend to embrace all forms of music and had more diversity taste. Also, I met white people from Europe and Canada and Australia and they were easier to be friends with as they accept me more of my human side and my complicated side and not just put me into a black chick box based on what they saw on TV. Not saying those countries are free of racism of course. Even Prince's sister Tyka acknowledge in an interview with BBC that Prince's music was more appreciated in Europe and they accept him the way he was.

Why else Prince gotten frustrated of being known as a black artist? That doesn't mean he was shame of his blackness, he did diversity forms of music and he hated how record execs and fans too pigholened him into just an RB artist. That is why Jill didn't do well here in the USA because not only Paisley Park's poor but US radio executives didn't know what to do with her. Even someone else mentioned on here as Jill stated earlier in her interviews that Prince tried to push her with the black audience when she was opening for Jody Watley and when she performed the black crowd just stand there.

Don't get me started with Wendy and Lisa as I am aware you are a big fan of theirs just as much I am too. The music executives didn't knew what to do with them either and they faced the same situation and they are mainly white chicks. I think the record executives want them to be more black per Lisa lol because they came from Prince and those record executives see Prince as a black artist despite Prince fought against that label until he died.

Yeah I agree I love seeing multiracial families. If I had a biracial child I would raise my child to appreciate all of their hertiages and reject the one drop rule.

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Reply #149 posted 04/24/19 6:18pm

violetcrush

ladygirl99 said:

violetcrush said:

I was more disagreeing with your statement about the US being the one to blame for her album and/or videos not being played due to racial issues. I think it's much more to do with the musical trends having changed by the time her record was released than anything else. As OldFriends4Sale has stated in prior threads - had Jill's album been released during the 1984-85 Purple Rain explosion it most likely would have done much better here in the US and also abroad. She was recognizable from being in the film, and the songs were on trend for that time frame. Three years makes a huge difference in the music world. Even Prince was falling behind the trends by 1988-89.

*

Yes, I know Italian is not a race classification - I was mentioning that in relation to describing my physical appearance in comparison to Jill's back then. And yes, I know she is 1/2 Italian and 1/2 black. She stated when she first met Prince and told him he had not heard of that before. Then he did his first interview in Europe in 1980-81 for Dirty Mind (one of the best I've heard) and told the journalist he was 1/2 Italian and 1/2 black biggrin

*

I think bi-racial or multi-racial is awesome and beautiful. I feel as though we (the US) had been moving forward with being more open-minded about this prior to the last election. It's extremely sad that it seems we have been moving backward, and I truly hope we can get back to making forward progress in 2020. It's been very troubling and heartbreaking sad

[Edited 4/24/19 13:57pm]

Even with the constant changing of music trends, US still remains segregrate by music and other things, hon. You know black charts now called urban/hip hop radio charts (that target primary black audiences) and top mainstream and pop radio charts (code for targeting white audiences). In other words whether it was 1987 or 2019, despite some progress, artists are still being boxed based on their race as very few black artists able to crossover. Don't believe me ask Lenny Kravitz.. That poor guy, despite being successful, still had dealt with radio heads and radio station executives tried to box him as a black artist even though his style of music was mixture of rock and pop and slow jams and not to mention he was half black. I heard he even tours in Europe more these days. Ask Tina Turner as well she struggled too as record company tried to place her as a black artist and yet some black people rejected her sound as heck I knew some black folks thought her music was too white and didn't care for her solo stuff. And also black artists who didn't fit in a box did better in other countries like Japan and Europe than here in the states. Like I stated before the reason why Jill did better in Europe was beacuse from what I heard Europeans tend to embrace all forms of music and had more diversity taste. Also, I met white people from Europe and Canada and Australia and they were easier to be friends with as they accept me more of my human side and my complicated side and not just put me into a black chick box based on what they saw on TV. Not saying those countries are free of racism of course. Even Prince's sister Tyka acknowledge in an interview with BBC that Prince's music was more appreciated in Europe and they accept him the way he was.

Why else Prince gotten frustrated of being known as a black artist? That doesn't mean he was shame of his blackness, he did diversity forms of music and he hated how record execs and fans too pigholened him into just an RB artist. That is why Jill didn't do well here in the USA because not only Paisley Park's poor but US radio executives didn't know what to do with her. Even someone else mentioned on here as Jill stated earlier in her interviews that Prince tried to push her with the black audience when she was opening for Jody Watley and when she performed the black crowd just stand there.

Don't get me started with Wendy and Lisa as I am aware you are a big fan of theirs just as much I am too. The music executives didn't knew what to do with them either and they faced the same situation and they are mainly white chicks. I think the record executives want them to be more black per Lisa lol because they came from Prince and those record executives see Prince as a black artist despite Prince fought against that label until he died.

Yeah I agree I love seeing multiracial families. If I had a biracial child I would raise my child to appreciate all of their hertiages and reject the one drop rule.

I'm fully aware of the history with segregated music here in the US, "hon" smile I was watching all of the awards shows back then when they had the "favorite black..." category. Prince was planning to "cross over" from the time he began his career. Chris Moon stated that when he began helping Prince go after a record deal Prince said to him, "don't make me black". As soon as he got the first two albums done he did his 180 turn into Dirty Mind and never looked back. However, Prince was not touring in Europe (with the exception of a few shows in 1981), so the US fans and radio stations were helping him to climb the charts - with both his earlier R&B music as well as his rock/synth music starting with DM. He was accumulating a huge fan base here.

*

I'm sure Tina had her struggles, however, she carved out quite a successful career for herself here in the US. She even had a HUGE resurgence in the 80's - same year as Prince's Purple Rain explosion. Not sure what Lenny K has to complain about. He was HUGE in the 90's - both white and black audiences loved him. Mr Cab Driver, I Want To Fly Away and American Woman were big hits here, and MTV played him constantly.

*

The issue with Wendy and Lisa was not that the execs wanted them to be more "black" - it had nothing to do with them being white chicks. They wanted them to be "sexy" performers and wear skimpy outfits a la the Mary Jane Girls - that comparison was actually discussed in one of their interviews several years ago. So for them it was more the issue of being female but not wanting to be "Carmen Elektra" or even Madonna on stage. They just wanted to be able to play their music without dealing with that persona.

*

Look, I completely agree on the segregation issues with the black and white music stations/awards etc back in the day. However, it was another unfortunate factor of the racial climate. I just don't think that is the reason that Jill Jones's album did not sell here.

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