cindyt said:

cindyt said:

ok then. so I am primarily interested in if prince was into witchcraft when dez dickerson was around. and was dez dickerson around when denise matthews was around. was prince into the occult, as in using it in his work as backmasking in music and on graphics on covers....I'm not sure of the dates of denise matthews and the early members of prince's band. I also have heard that brown mark said he saw occultic things surrounding prince, such as his reflection not even showing up in the mirror.

I have great respect for denise matthews, by the way. From what I have heard of her story, not ever knowing anyone I am discussing here, it appears she gave up the entire lifestyle for being a Christian, and she is truly happy now I would bet. and healed. yay.

Vashtix said:

Start a thread about Vanity and witchcraft name it whatever you like I am not trying to tell you what to name your thread. [Edited 2/6/17 12:02pm]

The dude brought it up earlier in this thread. the guy who started the thread.

cindyt said:

I'm not sure I think it's so great to call a relationship beautiful when denise matthews tried to leave it behind, as a Christian. Was prince into witchcraft as well? (talking about 80's and 90's) did she write about that?

There is this story of Denise having conjured up a ghost in an abandoned house and that with the help of her grandmother she found out that the ghost was her grandfather. That entity began to haunt her and she was afraid she had brought it on Prince too. She and Prince and Susan went to cemeteries at night (something I don't see P doing) to prank and scare each other. It's said that there were several ghosts, demons who haunted Prince and that they were the reason he bulldozed his houses. I don't know about all this but Prince did definitely have an affinity, fear and fascination, for the Dark. His Symbol is a merge of two alchemy symbols, he'd show up and disappear out of the blue and he had this telepathy thing going on that I have experienced myself. I think he was tuned in to the spiritual more than the average person.

CatB said:

CatB said:

cindyt said:

Strawberrylova123 said:

CatB said:

There is this story of Denise having conjured up a ghost in an abandoned house and that with the help of her grandmother she found out that the ghost was her grandfather. That entity began to haunt her and she was afraid she had brought it on Prince too. She and Prince and Susan went to cemeteries at night (something I don't see P doing) to prank and scare each other. It's said that there were several ghosts, demons who haunted Prince and that they were the reason he bulldozed his houses. I don't know about all this but Prince did definitely have an affinity, fear and fascination, for the Dark. His Symbol is a merge of two alchemy symbols, he'd show up and disappear out of the blue and he had this telepathy thing going on that I have experienced myself. I think he was tuned in to the spiritual more than the average person.

In devin devasquez book she did mention that prince always had nightmares about demons

Yeah I've always said this too but most people can't hear it. They don't want to look at P's dark side. So I keep those things to myself.

Vashtix said:

CatB said:

There is this story of Denise having conjured up a ghost in an abandoned house and that with the help of her grandmother she found out that the ghost was her grandfather. That entity began to haunt her and she was afraid she had brought it on Prince too. She and Prince and Susan went to cemeteries at night (something I don't see P doing) to prank and scare each other. It's said that there were several ghosts, demons who haunted Prince and that they were the reason he bulldozed his houses. I don't know about all this but Prince did definitely have an affinity, fear and fascination, for the Dark. His Symbol is a merge of two alchemy symbols, he'd show up and disappear out of the blue and he had this telepathy thing going on that I have experienced myself. I think he was tuned in to the spiritual more than the average person.

I never knew him but I think he was more spiritual. His gift was nothing earthly. I cannot imagine having all of that and nnot being spiritual. Did he ever scare you?

Yes but I don't think he meant to.

But like you say, this thread should stay about Denise.

CatB said:

cindyt said:

Vashtix said:

CatB said:

Yes but I don't think he meant to.

But like you say, this thread should stay about Denise.

Yes Denise anniversary of her transition. Did you ever meet her? She was before her time.

No, I've never met her.

Strawberrylova123 said:

In devin devasquez book she did mention that prince always had nightmares about demons

Hmmm, interesting. I wonder if that was why Owen Husney had this experience with him:

Mumio said:

He didn't always have music on to sleep. On the contrary, he'd also wake up from music playing inside his head.

I really think I've found an answer to something that I wondered about for many years. Lets just say, I think I got a source for a situaiton now. I wonder if the answer has come from "beyond". Thanks for the info. I hope both are in heaven now, truly I do. I hope everyone will believe in Jesus. (personal opinion from me) Thanks. moving on....back to original subject.

luvgirl said:

TOB said:
If you are up to answering this question TOB, why did she move out of Prince's house? Was that the plan all along? I have to admit being surprised that Prince wanted her to move in with him at all with all the women that he was seeing. Did she get fed up with his treatment of her and all the other women, or did he want her to move out? I heard in one of her interviews where she complained about living out of a hotel. I'm assuming that was when they were touring. [Edited 2/5/17 6:14am]

She moved out...

Yes, due to the circumstances.

Art was her passion and it is what she always ran to as a release, to help her think and make sense of her world.

DeBorah told me a story about how Denise quickly painted an elaborate painting to take away the pain of her older sister, who had broke her leg while training for the Olympics and was re-set in the kitchen by their grandmother.

She told another story about how each Spring in their town they would have garbage can painting contest,

and that Denise was winning them as earlier as the age of 9.

Prince, musicgenius = OCD, which could mean the same unending bass and drum beat day in and day out.

She wrote a short short specifically about this time in their life (like coming home one night from a trip, knowing something was different about the place. Waking up the next morning, going outside and finding the house had been painted purple).

Denise just needed her own space.

Vashtix said:

TOB said:

Yes... that date is slowly approaching.

I'm not certain what I'll be doing or not doing, thinking or trying not to... on that day.

There is too much to do and so much to say, I just don't know where to begin, and if I do there is now one big question.

Before the other thread was removed or hidden an idea was developing on how and from what perspective I wanted to share what I have and what I knew.

The removal with regard to what was revealed and the lost history shook and angered me.

My knee-jerk reaction was towards picking a “due process” or 1^st Amendment fight over the control of original thoughts, poetry and pieces of artwork that had been exposed on that thread.

It made me rethink putting any energy into posting and sharing if it could be pulled down, taken and destroyed without providing reason or warning.

I’m not in the habit of posting and advancing my own threads.

This thread was my immediate reaction to the removal of the other, so next time I could be warned,

and so that it could be explained to me directly why something is off base,

and so I would possibly be allowed to argue my position and question someone’s legitimate or frivolous compliant.

On many occasions I have stated that I take no sides, and don’t even take Denise’s written words over someone else’s words.

I simply say that “Denise writes” and I then quote what she has written.

There was a change in Denise, an obvious evolution in her writing that was initially slightly bitter before she found her path and a peace.

She admits in those earlier writings that she was writing her story because she felt no one was returning her calls for help.

This doesn’t make what she wrote any less true. Actually, maybe the opposite,

since she never would have wrote and revealed it if she weren’t angry at the time.

However, still it is only Denise written opinion from her perspective.

I have argued and debated with her on many different subjects over the pass twenty years to know her word is not gospel (pun intended), and I remain unbiased.

In other words, one no should be anxious over what Denise has written, there’s always a few other sides to the same story.

Her writings are mostly an introspective examination of the good, the bad, the ugly and the beautiful ones, with her always being hardest on herself.

Moreover, I know for a fact the Denise’s Will did not go through the Alameda county probate court process, and I believe she self-published her book. Therefore, the only people that can legally complain about anything I post of her art and writings is no one. The only people that have a reason or right to complain is her mother, her mother’s daughters (DeBorah and Patty), their spouses (which includes me) and then their children.

No one else has any legal title to Denise’s estate until the Will is proved valid through the probate process.

The first question should be… didn’t Denise leave you her storage in that Will?

Short answer, “Yes.”

Next question should be… then why are you publicly saying that the Will has not been validated and probated? I am saying because it’s true, and I’m saying it here to quash any potential complaints about my posting and sharing information regarding Denise by those “claiming” to have a superior right or any right to what they’ve knowingly stolen; without the courts authority.

Denise’s Will was “lodged” with the court clerk not filed for probate. There is a difference.

I've not yet accepted the offers that have been presented, mainly because I do not seek to write a story or create an army of sycophants telling me what I want to hear, with me preaching to a choir without the balance of debate, questioning each and every claim.

I learned a number of things from the thread that was removed and stated that I wanted the conversation and debate to continue… I had just become intrigued about all the unknown and we were still barely at the beginning.

But could it or should it be continued here... is now the big question?

It is good to see you post again. I too was very unnerved when the Vanity/Morris thread disappeared. There was the start of a great discussion and dialogue about certain dates and events. It was respectful to all even the disagreements. (I liked those too). I found out things were not as I originally thought they were too- I saw both parties as real people, beautiful but flawed. I am still disappointed. So many questions; the date of the actual meeting, what happened backstage at the AMAs (all his women were there) just so much trivial stuff I wanted to ask (was the cane a his and hers- did he buy one for himself too ; why did she need protection, from what?).

I mentioned to you that I am not sure if this is the place for real dialogue and sharing of knowledge,opinions debate. I do not understand why the other one was pulled.

I do not want to assume and say something offensive but I am not a fan of the people I read she willed her self-published book to. She may have been in fellowship but as one in the faith I give them a side eye. I thank you for sharing that information. Denise appears to have been smarter than many thought.

We in the faith are to leave peacably with all as best we can, love above all else and show acceptance. I will now get off my soap box.

I am hoping you will continue the conversation it should be continued. Information can be shared, digested and debated; as you said none of it is gospel.

Hope it can be shared without disruption. If you do decide to do so elsewhere please let me know as I would like to continue in the conversation.

Also thoughts and prayer for you and Deborah and your sons at this time. I have no words as they sound hollow and shallow if I tried.

No one on the Org has truly ever said or done anything directly to me that has affected my activity here.

I am honestly extremely busy with many things and have began to fall behind on my set goals.

I learned from being in poetry groups that it is best to write (even simple comments) in a Word Doc before posting a response.

So I do have most of what I posted, I have all of the images I posted in that thread and could easily repost all the images here.

Which I probably should do for context and continuity

Thank you for your thoughts and prayers.

TOB said:

luvgirl said:

TOB said:
If you are up to answering this question TOB, why did she move out of Prince's house? Was that the plan all along? I have to admit being surprised that Prince wanted her to move in with him at all with all the women that he was seeing. Did she get fed up with his treatment of her and all the other women, or did he want her to move out? I heard in one of her interviews where she complained about living out of a hotel. I'm assuming that was when they were touring. [Edited 2/5/17 6:14am]

She moved out...

Yes, due to the circumstances.

Art was her passion and it is what she always ran to as a release, to help her think and make sense of her world.

DeBorah told me a story about how Denise quickly painted an elaborate painting to take away the pain of her older sister, who had broke her leg while training for the Olympics and was re-set in the kitchen by their grandmother.

She told another story about how each Spring in their town they would have garbage can painting contest,

and that Denise was winning them as earlier as the age of 9.

Prince, musicgenius = OCD, which could mean the same unending bass and drum beat day in and day out.

She wrote a short short specifically about this time in their life (like coming home one night from a trip, knowing something was different about the place. Waking up the next morning, going outside and finding the house had been painted purple).

Denise just needed her own space.

Hi TOB,

Good to see you posting.

Hope this is not a stupid question but Do you have any of her art work?

TOB said:

Vashtix said:

It is good to see you post again. I too was very unnerved when the Vanity/Morris thread disappeared. There was the start of a great discussion and dialogue about certain dates and events. It was respectful to all even the disagreements. (I liked those too). I found out things were not as I originally thought they were too- I saw both parties as real people, beautiful but flawed. I am still disappointed. So many questions; the date of the actual meeting, what happened backstage at the AMAs (all his women were there) just so much trivial stuff I wanted to ask (was the cane a his and hers- did he buy one for himself too ; why did she need protection, from what?).

I mentioned to you that I am not sure if this is the place for real dialogue and sharing of knowledge,opinions debate. I do not understand why the other one was pulled.

I do not want to assume and say something offensive but I am not a fan of the people I read she willed her self-published book to. She may have been in fellowship but as one in the faith I give them a side eye. I thank you for sharing that information. Denise appears to have been smarter than many thought.

We in the faith are to leave peacably with all as best we can, love above all else and show acceptance. I will now get off my soap box.

I am hoping you will continue the conversation it should be continued. Information can be shared, digested and debated; as you said none of it is gospel.

Hope it can be shared without disruption. If you do decide to do so elsewhere please let me know as I would like to continue in the conversation.

Also thoughts and prayer for you and Deborah and your sons at this time. I have no words as they sound hollow and shallow if I tried.

No one on the Org has truly ever said or done anything directly to me that has affected my activity here.

I am honestly extremely busy with many things and have began to fall behind on my set goals.

I learned from being in poetry groups that it is best to write (even simple comments) in a Word Doc before posting a response.

So I do have most of what I posted, I have all of the images I posted in that thread and could easily repost all the images here.

Which I probably should do for context and continuity

Thank you for your thoughts and prayers.

It would make for great continuity. I am looking forward even the debates. In fact the differing opinions force me to remember these people were human. Gifted in the arts but human still the same with human frailties that we all have.

TOB said:

TOB thank you for all that you share with us about Denise. If you don't mind, I have another question. Did Denise write about her experiences working for Motown when she branched off for a solo career in music and acting? My understanding is that getting that kind of a deal is exactly what she dreamed of when she entered the entertainment business. I think she parted ways with Motown in 1987. Was working for Motown a positive experience for her?

.

.

[Edited 2/9/17 10:15am]

Shard said:

TOB thank you for all that you share with us about Denise. If you don't mind, I have another question. Did Denise write about her experiences working for Motown when she branched off for a solo career in music and acting? My understanding is that getting that kind of a deal is exactly what she dreamed of when she entered the entertainment business. I think she parted ways with Motown in 1987. Was working for Motown a positive experience for her?

.

.

[Edited 2/9/17 10:15am]

luvgirl said:

Thanks for the reply. I can definitely see how she would need her own space for a peace of mind in that situation. I'm just surprised that Prince wanted her to live with him at all in the beginning, when he must of known that he wasn't ready to conform to anyone's standards of a normal relationship. It would have been less painful for everyone involved. I'm Looking forward to the continuity of Denise's story. Thank you TOB. [Edited 2/9/17 9:03am]

I think it was probably a control issue. Prince would have more control over her if she lived in his house.

PennyPurple said:

Morgaine said:

TOB said:

Hello TOB; For the most part, I am a lurker here but I felt the need to express my gratitude for your posts. For myself, as a 13 year old girl, she was beautiful. Today I know her beauty was not merely physical, it was spiritual in nature. Your poem, which I internalized as the subject (I have been there) truly moved me and I thank you so much for sharing it here. Furthermore, what you have shared of Denise has given me so much more comprehension of who she truly was. Prayers and blessings to you and yours.

The most beautiful thing about Denise is that she saw beauty in almost everything and had the ability to make you see what she was seeing. She prayed for trees, fed cats around the city, the birds and squirrels that would visit her patio. She was playful and remained a kid at heart.

She tells a story about one of her most favorite gifts. Though it was very expensive for her at the time it was the meaning that she place upon it that gave it its’ true value. When she showed me and my sons and told us about the gift it was 30 years after she receiving it, but in her telling you feel it’s’ significance remained.

She's holding that gift in a picture on the cover of the March 25, 1985 issue of Jet Magazine.

She writes:

"Back in day," and this line will always be referred to as the eighties,” Vanity 6 first toured America with Prince and the Time and were on their way to Dallas Texas. It was extremely exciting to say the least. The tour was named Prince 1999.

As we approached this magnificent city we were all on one accord, minds made up ready to shop! It was hot in Texas I recall, but when you are young no one cares especially when one has a thirst for fun. I had heard so many speak of the glamorous life of the Texans. Dallas men stood about dressed in big cowboy hats with brown, boots that clicked when they strut. Elegant woman filled the streets in racy high, heeled shoes with big, beautiful, hats and very large black sunglasses. Almost all of them were dressed in colorful sun dresses. Limos were like taxis here and we were feeling quite popular because our songs were blasting through the radio as we drove down the streets in a black stretch. And so merrily we went. Neiman Marcus I believe, to the best of my recollection, was our first stop.

I cannot hold back my feelings when describing what I saw through the looking glass window that day. I tell you this crystal purse was the loveliest piece I had ever set my eyes upon.

I was young and somewhat frivolous and I just had to touch it, I had to have it. I fell in love with what seemed to be a crystal ball of purple fire, shaped into an egg. It appeared to be an oval clutch purse, brilliant in color and extremely fragile. I could hardly catch my breath... Nothing could keep me from reaching for this delicate object at once. It was altogether royal, altogether exquisite. Without hesitation I asked to hold it in my hand. It fit in my palm as if it were designed for me. It sparkled in the light bouncing off of the ceiling all around us in every direction. I got all excited inside, I felt like a Princess. I knew it had to be mine.

It was adorned with every color of purple in the color spectrum. Lavender was my favorite color and obviously purple became Prince's. So I felt this magnificent crystal purple ball represented the love we had for each another (and the entire tour of 1999). The price was $2,500.00, Prince gave me the money. So with that said this little treasure became mine on that great lovely, sunny day. My world was filled with sparkles in my eyes and bells on my toes. It was the best gift and the most expensive purse I have ever owned. I wore it that night, I felt like an angel as together we danced the night away. It has never left my side. I have never had anything so memorably beautiful in all my life.

It is 2015 and one of my best friends, his name is Joseph has been given this royal find. He is the proud owner of this one of a kind. It has been placed in loving hands to be taken great care of for as long as this world shall last...

Thank you Joseph and Heavens blessings to you and Momma until we meet everlasting…

You might want to get a crystal glass case for it. Thank you for blessing my treasure with a new home amen...

With all my purest love Denise Matthews… formerly known as Vanity.

TOB said:

luvgirl said:

TOB said:

The most beautiful thing about Denise is that she saw beauty in almost everything and had the ability to make you see what she was seeing. She prayed for trees, fed cats around the city, the birds and squirrels that would visit her patio. She was playful and remained a kid at heart.

She tells a story about one of her most favorite gifts. Though it was very expensive for her at the time it was the meaning that she place upon it that gave it its’ true value. When she showed me and my sons and told us about the gift it was 30 years after she receiving it, but in her telling you feel it’s’ significance remained.

She's holding that gift in a picture on the cover of the March 25, 1985 issue of Jet Magazine.

She writes:

"Back in day," and this line will always be referred to as the eighties,” Vanity 6 first toured America with Prince and the Time and were on their way to Dallas Texas. It was extremely exciting to say the least. The tour was named Prince 1999.

As we approached this magnificent city we were all on one accord, minds made up ready to shop! It was hot in Texas I recall, but when you are young no one cares especially when one has a thirst for fun. I had heard so many speak of the glamorous life of the Texans. Dallas men stood about dressed in big cowboy hats with brown, boots that clicked when they strut. Elegant woman filled the streets in racy high, heeled shoes with big, beautiful, hats and very large black sunglasses. Almost all of them were dressed in colorful sun dresses. Limos were like taxis here and we were feeling quite popular because our songs were blasting through the radio as we drove down the streets in a black stretch. And so merrily we went. Neiman Marcus I believe, to the best of my recollection, was our first stop.

I cannot hold back my feelings when describing what I saw through the looking glass window that day. I tell you this crystal purse was the loveliest piece I had ever set my eyes upon.

I was young and somewhat frivolous and I just had to touch it, I had to have it. I fell in love with what seemed to be a crystal ball of purple fire, shaped into an egg. It appeared to be an oval clutch purse, brilliant in color and extremely fragile. I could hardly catch my breath... Nothing could keep me from reaching for this delicate object at once. It was altogether royal, altogether exquisite. Without hesitation I asked to hold it in my hand. It fit in my palm as if it were designed for me. It sparkled in the light bouncing off of the ceiling all around us in every direction. I got all excited inside, I felt like a Princess. I knew it had to be mine.

It was adorned with every color of purple in the color spectrum. Lavender was my favorite color and obviously purple became Prince's. So I felt this magnificent crystal purple ball represented the love we had for each another (and the entire tour of 1999). The price was $2,500.00, Prince gave me the money. So with that said this little treasure became mine on that great lovely, sunny day. My world was filled with sparkles in my eyes and bells on my toes. It was the best gift and the most expensive purse I have ever owned. I wore it that night, I felt like an angel as together we danced the night away. It has never left my side. I have never had anything so memorably beautiful in all my life.

It is 2015 and one of my best friends, his name is Joseph has been given this royal find. He is the proud owner of this one of a kind. It has been placed in loving hands to be taken great care of for as long as this world shall last...

Thank you Joseph and Heavens blessings to you and Momma until we meet everlasting…

You might want to get a crystal glass case for it. Thank you for blessing my treasure with a new home amen...

With all my purest love Denise Matthews… formerly known as Vanity.

Wow. I shed a tear reading this beautiful story. Her excitement was palpable and infectious. It was nice to read about her in a happy moment that involved Prince. I needed that. Thank you. [Edited 2/13/17 17:51pm]