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PrintableTOB said:
Yes and no... Hard to explain... It's obvious that she was on an emotional rollercoaster, and she describes each up, down, twist, turn and the stomach turning and heart stopping Loop-De-Loop. But how he is, who and what he is to her is sometimes almost left to be implied. As if she is expecting the reader to simply just know... as she knew. As if she had been condition to understand what he meant with a glance, otherwise... it would be allow or invited. I still haven't read all the versions and looking through them all at one time can get confusing when I go back to find something I knew I had read. I understand completely. This past weekend I listen to Prince's tribute to her again, and I came across a comment that many gloss over in that tribute. After saying "Her and I used to love each other deeply." He'd later go on to say, As much as we loved, we used to fight. There he was, describing pretty much the same intense roller coaster relationship she herself described. No surprise that like you said, how he was, and what he was to her, was sometimes left to be implied in her writing. Now I understand why in the song "The Beautiful Ones" he sang "You make me so confused..." What relationship wouldn't be confusing amid that kind of loving and fighting. They were up one day, then down the next. While he was confused, she herself was complaining of their strange relationship... It's telling though that after years apart, they still knew what they meant to each other back then, even through all the twist and turns. From what you say, it sound like her writing reflects that. [Edited 2/22/17 3:39am] | |
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How many versions are there? | |
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TOB said:[quote]
The Purse There are a few other pics of her with it.
I'm still lost on the middle of their (romantic) story, and even the beginning is still blurry. Solely with regard to what happen between the chaos of the Livingroom scene and their arrival in Dallas. What changed and when? What was discovered, forgiven, experienced..? What was found that bond them? Because whatever happened it was enough to last them... As this purse obviously remained filled with meaning... and it also once held diamond ear rings.
She entitled this story/letter "The Purple Reign Letter"
When I say "As a Poet" it usually means how I am analyzing a story, poem, song... Here I don't know enough about their story and I don't know if anyone knows enough about their musing relationship to for certain how much she influenced his creative process. He seemed to be able to easily see what she was seeing. When telling a story or being creative she often fell into a elaborate dramatic (Shakespearean) way of speech that captured your attention and filled your mind with imagery. The more I learn and read about her back then and then listen to his music, the more I believe he was listening.
"If I was your girlfriend" was the most recent.
[/qmoment "If I was ur girlfriend" a very deep song, heart felt, raw emotions from Prince. From the moment I heard it I knew who he was talking about. That's P describing their relationship. She had did many interviews after she left Prince. She addressed many of the topics P was singing about. He's expressing himself to her. At about the time this came out Denise was involved with Nikki Sixx. P was trying hard to get her attention. He finally got it with "Adore'. He loved loved loved this woman!!!! So many songs all inspired by her!!!! When she passed he dedicated The Beautiful Ones to her saying "she knows about this one". Just imagine about all the others that she didn't know about!! Or all the others we haven't even heard..... | |
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pnv said:[quote] TOB said:
The Purse There are a few other pics of her with it. I'm still lost on the middle of their (romantic) story, and even the beginning is still blurry. Solely with regard to what happen between the chaos of the Livingroom scene and their arrival in Dallas. What changed and when? What was discovered, forgiven, experienced..? What was found that bond them? Because whatever happened it was enough to last them... As this purse obviously remained filled with meaning... and it also once held diamond ear rings. She entitled this story/letter "The Purple Reign Letter" When I say "As a Poet" it usually means how I am analyzing a story, poem, song... Here I don't know enough about their story and I don't know if anyone knows enough about their musing relationship to for certain how much she influenced his creative process. He seemed to be able to easily see what she was seeing. When telling a story or being creative she often fell into a elaborate dramatic (Shakespearean) way of speech that captured your attention and filled your mind with imagery. The more I learn and read about her back then and then listen to his music, the more I believe he was listening. "If I was your girlfriend" was the most recent. [/qmoment No, in fact, he wasn't. In the spirit of keeping information accurate, Prince did NOT write If I Was Your Girlfriend about Vanity. The song was influenced by Susannah Melvoin. The following quote.....: Susannah Melvoin on Prince songs that she inspired: The infamous “Wally,” which no one heard because he destroyed the tape. There's a huge story behind that. “Strange Relationship;” “Nothing Compares 2 U;” In a Large Room with No Light;” “If I was Your Girlfriend.” God, you know there's more and I can't remember... ....was lifted from the following article: http://beautifulnightschi...-with.html To be clear, I am sure there were songs Prince wrote that were influenced by Vanity and their relationship, but please, IIWYG was not one of them. "Go placidly amid the noise and the haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence......." ~ DESIDERATA ~ Max Ehrmann | |
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Prince also noted that many songs people said were about them weren't and he just let them talk. I think he could have used all the women in the harem for certain aspects and I think I read Nothing Compares 2 U was written in response to Jerome Benton breaking up with someone. I still think Vanity and Prince had a relationship that was over the decades and died within weeks of one another like an old married couple. Not dissing Sussannah -
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Reciprocity said:
Prince also noted that many songs people said were about them weren't and he just let them talk.I think he could have used all the women in the harem for certain aspects and I think I read Nothing Compares 2 U was written in response to Jerome Benton breaking up with someone.I still think Vanity and Prince had a relationship that was over the decades and died within weeks of one another like an old married couple.Not dissing Sussannah - Hmmmm...it kinda seems like you are. Implying that her very own words are untrue! I guess we can all think what we want to...I'm going to stick with the facts on this one. SM says Prince wrote those songs in response to their relationship, then, for me, they were. Let's not forget, they were engaged. That fact, in and of itself, proves they were very, very much in love and committed to one another (well, as much as Prince could commit to someone). And as many have asked, if Prince was so desperate to have a relationship with Denise, why was there not one? Seems as though there was plenty of opportunity over the 30+ years after the relationship ended. Maybe we can put this speculation to rest....can someone, anyone please (!), provide undisputed evidence of it being so. "Go placidly amid the noise and the haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence......." ~ DESIDERATA ~ Max Ehrmann | |
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NotACleverName said: Reciprocity said:
Prince also noted that many songs people said were about them weren't and he just let them talk.I think he could have used all the women in the harem for certain aspects and I think I read Nothing Compares 2 U was written in response to Jerome Benton breaking up with someone.I still think Vanity and Prince had a relationship that was over the decades and died within weeks of one another like an old married couple.Not dissing Sussannah - Hmmmm...it kinda seems like you are. Implying that her very own words are untrue! I guess we can all think what we want to...I'm going to stick with the facts on this one. SM says Prince wrote those songs in response to their relationship, then, for me, they were. Let's not forget, they were engaged. That fact, in and of itself, proves they were very, very much in love and committed to one another (well, as much as Prince could commit to someone). And as many have asked, if Prince was so desperate to have a relationship with Denise, why was there not one? Seems as though there was plenty of opportunity over the 30+ years after the relationship ended. Maybe we can put this speculation to rest....can someone, anyone please (!), provide undisputed evidence of it being so. Carmen said P said she was The Most Beautiful Girl In The World... Someone else said the song was about P mother... This means somebody was mislead or lying. The world believed the song to be about Mayte. But Carmen actually posted the note to her with his writing calling her TMBGITW. Does Carmen statement make it true facts that song was about her? Susan had people thinking TBO was about Susannah... Wasn't truth. Prince acknowledged only 1 song to be about Susannah... Forever In My Life. So the other stuff that Prince didn't confirm will never be facts and always speculation. Always. No matter what woman it is. Stating something as fact that you don't know to be a fact is bad practice. I also read NC2U to be about someone else and not Susannah. I doubt IIWYGF was about her (mo), as well. Jill was laughing about what Prince said to her about "going to go get engaged" as though he was doing this for some marketing or publicity purpose. Maybe this might explain why he so easily cut off the engagement and kicked her out. P had a few chicks in his life, so I'd think anyone one of those songs he hasn't publicly acknowledged whom to be about could have been about any woman, even a woman the public didn't know existed in Prince's life. | |
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NotACleverName said:[quote] pnv said: TOB said:
The Purse There are a few other pics of her with it. I'm still lost on the middle of their (romantic) story, and even the beginning is still blurry. Solely with regard to what happen between the chaos of the Livingroom scene and their arrival in Dallas. What changed and when? What was discovered, forgiven, experienced..? What was found that bond them? Because whatever happened it was enough to last them... As this purse obviously remained filled with meaning... and it also once held diamond ear rings. She entitled this story/letter "The Purple Reign Letter" When I say "As a Poet" it usually means how I am analyzing a story, poem, song... Here I don't know enough about their story and I don't know if anyone knows enough about their musing relationship to for certain how much she influenced his creative process. He seemed to be able to easily see what she was seeing. When telling a story or being creative she often fell into a elaborate dramatic (Shakespearean) way of speech that captured your attention and filled your mind with imagery. The more I learn and read about her back then and then listen to his music, the more I believe he was listening. "If I was your girlfriend" was the most recent. [/qmoment No, in fact, he wasn't. In the spirit of keeping information accurate, Prince did NOT write If I Was Your Girlfriend about Vanity. The song was influenced by Susannah Melvoin. The following quote.....: Susannah Melvoin on Prince songs that she inspired: The infamous “Wally,” which no one heard because he destroyed the tape. There's a huge story behind that. “Strange Relationship;” “Nothing Compares 2 U;” In a Large Room with No Light;” “If I was Your Girlfriend.” God, you know there's more and I can't remember... ....was lifted from the following article: http://beautifulnightschi...-with.html To be clear, I am sure there were songs Prince wrote that were influenced by Vanity and their relationship, but please, IIWYG was not one of them. Oh and Strange Relationship... You think it's true because Susannah said this? Because Denise talks about this on her FBook and I think her book. So who is one to believe, Susannah or Denise? I'm curious to what you think, is all. | |
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Anyone, again, becoming frustrated over the loss of the Vanity and Morris Day thread? Having to re-post, re-argue and re-answer... everything I'd say would now be out of context... frustrating. I have been given no reason why the thread was removed so I have to blindly edit myself, second guess and have to think about being careful what I say or post so no one has a reason to complain. Was it images of the unpublished pages? Was it the image of her and Prince in heaven with the words "Find the Angels" picture that Denise created and published in her book? Was it the magazine articles, the picture from Actors as Artist? With out specifics to understand the complaint anything and everything I post could prove to be offensive or controversial.
Plus, I'm beginning to get some grief from unexpected places that want to see and or approve my post before I post (not going to happen, not in this life).
Something is up...
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?You are saying that someone wants to approve your posts before you post it? That's odd. Is it someone on this forum? WTH?
Why would anyone try to stop your posting about 2 people that have passed on? That's really strange. Sorry you are having this problem. | |
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tigerlilyluv said: NotACleverName said: [/b] Hmmmm...it kinda seems like you are. Implying that her very own words are untrue! I guess we can all think what we want to...I'm going to stick with the facts on this one. SM says Prince wrote those songs in response to their relationship, then, for me, they were. Let's not forget, they were engaged. That fact, in and of itself, proves they were very, very much in love and committed to one another (well, as much as Prince could commit to someone). And as many have asked, if Prince was so desperate to have a relationship with Denise, why was there not one? Seems as though there was plenty of opportunity over the 30+ years after the relationship ended. Maybe we can put this speculation to rest....can someone, anyone please (!), provide undisputed evidence of it being so. Carmen said P said she was The Most Beautiful Girl In The World... Someone else said the song was about P mother... This means somebody was mislead or lying. The world believed the song to be about Mayte. But Carmen actually posted the note to her with his writing calling her TMBGITW. Does Carmen statement make it true facts that song was about her? Susan had people thinking TBO was about Susannah... Wasn't truth. Prince acknowledged only 1 song to be about Susannah... Forever In My Life. So the other stuff that Prince didn't confirm will never be facts and always speculation. Always. No matter what woman it is. Stating something as fact that you don't know to be a fact is bad practice. I also read NC2U to be about someone else and not Susannah. I doubt IIWYGF was about her (mo), as well. Jill was laughing about what Prince said to her about "going to go get engaged" as though he was doing this for some marketing or publicity purpose. Maybe this might explain why he so easily cut off the engagement and kicked her out. P had a few chicks in his life, so I'd think anyone one of those songs he hasn't publicly acknowledged whom to be about could have been about any woman, even a woman the public didn't know existed in Prince's life. If this is your viewpoint, then ALL the information about Prince and Vanity/Denise in the four (or five) threads on this forum, that has not been confirmed by Prince himself (only relayed by TOB), is speculation. How do we know Prince gave her $2,500 to purchase a clutch? And does anyone truly think that because Vanity's favorite color was lavender that somehow influenced Prince's choice of purple? I am beginning to see a pattern on these Vanity/Denise threads. If someone presents a differing opinion, as it relates to the consensus of the "core" posters' opinion, they are challenged to the nth degree....why is that? There were other women in Prince's life. A few were very long-term, 10 years, in fact! And he wrote songs about these women. Why is that challenged so vehemently? "Go placidly amid the noise and the haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence......." ~ DESIDERATA ~ Max Ehrmann | |
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Welcome to "the org", Mumio…they can have you, but I'll have your love in the end  | |
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Nothing was challenged. Just discussion. We can discuss- it is not that big a deal It's fine to talk about the lyrics and songs and influences. I also notice that arguments are attempted where there are none. There is no ill will on my part. We can discuss like adult people. All things are subjective aren't they? None of our discussions are set in stone and that is the fun of it. I do not take offense to Prince buying a purse for Vanity nor if he wrote songs with Sussanah. I believe Prince lived with and was engaged to Susannah. That does not take away from him buying a purse for Vanity. Prince had MANY women. I was just stating that he probably used aspects of his harem to get his lyrics. That is not a challenge. It is just discussing what may have been the case. It is a simple differing of thought and there has been no pattern except for tension to attempt to start arguments when there are none. As I said his actions with one woman should not be an affront to the other. It is how it was. Vanity is allowed to have her memories not trashed and the Sussanah is allowed to have hers and all the others are allowed to have theirs too and I am not pissing on any of them. The memories are theirs.
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There are some people who find Vanity's relationship/friendship with Prince an affront because they need for Vanity not to appear close to Prince or in a real relationship. The fact the last months of his life he dedicated songs and openly mourned her dashed beliefs that he and her never spoke or were at odds. The public saw a man mourning for someone who he was supposedly over decades ago. Vanity and Prince's relationship needs to be non existant and with the stories you are telling from her it threatens what some what the public to believe about Prince at this time. It is all about image and PR and marketing and the love story that caught people off guard if Prince and Vanity. Decades, death, public mourning and dying so close together is enough. People see them as lovers like in the NoteBook, The Way We Were etc. The connection was there and you can understand why Vanity is maligned and any thread that makes that connection is conveniently thrwarted and removed. It does not change real but it can hide it for now because others want to be seen as the love of his life - I know it sound weird but that is as what I see and the thing is Denise had the right to always tell her story but waited until death and now she is still getting beat up because Prince connected with her , and left the earth close to her. This is truly strange , sad, but apparently true. [Edited 2/22/17 14:01pm] | |
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Reciprocity said:
Nothing was challenged. Just discussion. We can discuss- it is not that big a deal It's fine to talk about the lyrics and songs and influences. I also notice that arguments are attempted where there are none. There is no ill will on my part. We can discuss like adult people. All things are subjective aren't they? None of our discussions are set in stone and that is the fun of it. I do not take offense to Prince buying a purse for Vanity nor if he wrote songs with Sussanah. I believe Prince lived with and was engaged to Susannah. That does not take away from him buying a purse for Vanity. Prince had MANY women. I was just stating that he probably used aspects of his harem to get his lyrics. That is not a challenge. It is just discussing what may have been the case. It is a simple differing of thought and there has been no pattern except for tension to attempt to start arguments when there are none. As I said his actions with one woman should not be an affront to the other. It is how it was. Vanity is allowed to have her memories not trashed and the Sussanah is allowed to have hers and all the others are allowed to have theirs too and I am not pissing on any of them. The memories are theirs. Thank you tigerlilyluv....I appreciate your explanation. I agree that each woman in Prince's life should be allowed the opportunity to celebrate and share all aspects of their relationship. For the record, I don't wish to argue. One more thing....Susannah left Prince. He did not kick her out. She moved out in December of 1986 (I believe) for good due to his "indiscretions". There might have been a few previous break ups/make ups. The following links will provide some insight on the break up/"Wally"/music inspired by Susannah. https://books.google.com/...ly&f=false https://books.google.com/...in&f=false Excerpts from "I Would Die 4 U" by Toure and "Prince: The Man and His Music" by Matt Thorne (I own this book, interesting info!). EDIT: revised links to book excerpts [Edited 2/22/17 15:15pm] "Go placidly amid the noise and the haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence......." ~ DESIDERATA ~ Max Ehrmann | |
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TOB, I've offered and still is offering you to discuss Denise freely on my website. I own denisekmatthews.com. There's no forum on that one but there is a forum on princeandvanity.net--I will have it open to public registrations by the end of this week. I agree how frustrating it can be here. Maybe someone's watching your post and isn't happy about what you're posting, so they complain. I think the mods or admins automatically hide a post that was reported. No one should have to keep answering to the same questions or to keep repeating themselves. I sure wouldn't be re-creating post to continue discussions. I haven't read anything in your post that I thought should be removed. There's a lot of stuff here that is clearly being overlooked that should be delt with. But that's my opinion. Try contacting the admin and ask why your thread is being hidden. You have a reason to know since you created it, I would think. The moderators are also listed. Maybe orgnote one of the moderators about it. I see there's not much problem with allowing a lot of Andy everywhere, but I could be wrong. I don't know and not even trying to figure out what's going on in this community on the backend. | |
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No problem. On Susannah.. I believe I read that it was Susan that said Prince phoned Susannah and broke off the engagement out of nowhere and told her to leave. She said they were surprised or shocked because I guess Susannah was caught off guard. Only God knows Prince's reason for calling it off. About these books... there are several books out and a few of them are in conflict with each other, some words in these books versus what some others that knew Prince are saying seems contradicting, and some of these books have stuff in them that's hearsay--which doesn't mean it's truth, you know what I mean? Prince said in 2014 or 2015 to Ebony Mag that so much was wrong. We would never know what that wrong is. I don't want to argue either. I have a habit I'm trying hard to break (giving my opinion), so pay me no mind. I mean no one any harm, I promise you. [Edited 2/22/17 16:26pm] [Edited 2/22/17 16:27pm] | |
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NotACleverName said: tigerlilyluv said: Carmen said P said she was The Most Beautiful Girl In The World... Someone else said the song was about P mother... This means somebody was mislead or lying. The world believed the song to be about Mayte. But Carmen actually posted the note to her with his writing calling her TMBGITW. Does Carmen statement make it true facts that song was about her? Susan had people thinking TBO was about Susannah... Wasn't truth. Prince acknowledged only 1 song to be about Susannah... Forever In My Life. So the other stuff that Prince didn't confirm will never be facts and always speculation. Always. No matter what woman it is. Stating something as fact that you don't know to be a fact is bad practice. I also read NC2U to be about someone else and not Susannah. I doubt IIWYGF was about her (mo), as well. Jill was laughing about what Prince said to her about "going to go get engaged" as though he was doing this for some marketing or publicity purpose. Maybe this might explain why he so easily cut off the engagement and kicked her out. P had a few chicks in his life, so I'd think anyone one of those songs he hasn't publicly acknowledged whom to be about could have been about any woman, even a woman the public didn't know existed in Prince's life. If this is your viewpoint, then ALL the information about Prince and Vanity/Denise in the four (or five) threads on this forum, that has not been confirmed by Prince himself (only relayed by TOB), is speculation. How do we know Prince gave her $2,500 to purchase a clutch? And does anyone truly think that because Vanity's favorite color was lavender that somehow influenced Prince's choice of purple? I am beginning to see a pattern on these Vanity/Denise threads. If someone presents a differing opinion, as it relates to the consensus of the "core" posters' opinion, they are challenged to the nth degree....why is that? There were other women in Prince's life. A few were very long-term, 10 years, in fact! And he wrote songs about these women. Why is that challenged so vehemently? Probably cause the thread is titled Denise Katrina Matthews? | |
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I participate in the threads about Denise/Vanity and it has been discouraging that the discussion is stopped by threads disappearing. The volatile atmosphere which results by mere mention of Vanity and Prince as close friends and/or romantic at any level has me very intrigued. People not wanting the information she wrote about her life discussed and saying she lied about her life- Her very own life is amusing to me. She was not sharing it for monetary gain but with you to share as you wish. There is clearly a need to keep the information about Denise/Vanity and her connection to Prince hushed and swept under the rug. A Blatant attempt to quelsh the curiousity and any validation that the two were more than just 80s rock stars on the cover of Rolling Stone. I wish there were people who could alongside with what you have shared to also share. Denise never shared her story ; and I want to discuss her time with him and discuss her -period. She was a force and I was enjoying you sharing about what a legit artist she really was and confirming that she sold her work . I never realized she had so much going on careeer wise prior to Prince. As I said that AMAs story was wonderful. I felt I was along for the ride. I am still waiting for the rest. I want to know how she felt backstage waiting to come on and present and how it felt to be face to face after the show. She is such a great story teller. Do not be silenced and it is good to have good discussion. I hope it can continue. | |
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Maybe Vanity's favorite color of lavender DID influenced Prince and maybe it didn't. Why does this idea of it being true sound outlandish or silly to you? No one has proved for or against yet. In fact, a "core" Vanity poster up thread was thinking about previous eras to Purple Rain wondering if there were signs of purple in Prince's dress. At least there is some thoughful processing and not blind acceptance or rejection. . You say that "core" Vanity posters vehemently oppose the possibility that Prince loved other women after her, or other than her, but I might argue the opposite is true. There PLENTY of posters that VEHEMENTLY oppose the idea that Prince may have possibly cared for Denise always. Their lives were incompatible so maybe that is why they never reunited, or maybe they DID and because Prince was so private, we didn't see anything. None of us know what happened or how Prince felt unless he said it. [Edited 2/22/17 18:12pm] | |
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NotACleverName said: Reciprocity said:
Nothing was challenged. Just discussion. We can discuss- it is not that big a deal It's fine to talk about the lyrics and songs and influences. I also notice that arguments are attempted where there are none. There is no ill will on my part. We can discuss like adult people. All things are subjective aren't they? None of our discussions are set in stone and that is the fun of it. I do not take offense to Prince buying a purse for Vanity nor if he wrote songs with Sussanah. I believe Prince lived with and was engaged to Susannah. That does not take away from him buying a purse for Vanity. Prince had MANY women. I was just stating that he probably used aspects of his harem to get his lyrics. That is not a challenge. It is just discussing what may have been the case. It is a simple differing of thought and there has been no pattern except for tension to attempt to start arguments when there are none. As I said his actions with one woman should not be an affront to the other. It is how it was. Vanity is allowed to have her memories not trashed and the Sussanah is allowed to have hers and all the others are allowed to have theirs too and I am not pissing on any of them. The memories are theirs. Thank you tigerlilyluv....I appreciate your explanation. I agree that each woman in Prince's life should be allowed the opportunity to celebrate and share all aspects of their relationship. For the record, I don't wish to argue. One more thing....Susannah left Prince. He did not kick her out. She moved out in December of 1986 (I believe) for good due to his "indiscretions". There might have been a few previous break ups/make ups. The following links will provide some insight on the break up/"Wally"/music inspired by Susannah. https://books.google.com/...mp;f=false https://books.google.com/...mp;f=false Excerpts from "I Would Die 4 U" by Toure and "Prince: The Man and His Music" by Matt Thorne (I own this book, interesting info!). EDIT: revised links to book excerpts [Edited 2/22/17 15:15pm] Hi NotAClevername. Not trying to start a Susannah verses Vanity war, and hope it doesn't come off that way. I respect the relationship Susannah had with Prince. I just wanted to point out to you, that the most fan popular book Possessed, and the most respected DMSR, states that Prince did indeed asked Susannah to move out, and Susan Rogers was actually one of the person to confirm it. Page 111 Possessed- Prince relationship with Susannah continued to be poisoned by his voracious appetite for other women. His callous treatment of Susannah was also upsetting to Karen Krattinger. Who by now had become general manager of Prince's production company. Susannah was one of her best friends and still Krattinger was ordered to perform odious task like installing her in an apartment after Prince banished her from his home. "Prince put me in the middle of his relationship way too much. I saw him throwing away and hurting the most wonderful women I felt he would ever know." Prince made little secret with his dalliance of numerous other women. While one night stands were a frequent occurrence steady companions were Jill Jones and Sheila E. Page 196 DMSR- He was also living with Susannah. She was wearing his ring. He loved her and didn't want to lose her but he didn't think he could carry out his commitment. Prince rented a condo in the Lake Calhoun district of Minneapolis and persuaded Susannah to live there. "He decided he couldn't live with Susannah" said Rogers. "He wasn't ready for a full term committed relationship. It sounds like such a simple way to describe such a complex thing, the truth is that he just wasn't ready. And he realized that at the time. He wanted her at the time. He wanted her in his life, but he didn't want her at his elbow, right beside him all the time. He couldn't go to sleep and wake up with the same person every day and share everything on that level. Susannah was very unhappy about it." After she moved out Prince started going out with other women and it was obvious that his relationship with Susannah would not survive. Without being discreet, he dated aspiring actress Troy Beyer and Sherilyn Flynn, Jackie ST Clair and Carol Davis. In regards to your other post to show the discrepancy with some of the songs that SM suspects are written about her in the article you linked, it has been known among some fans and it also states in the vault, that Prince was inspired to write Nothing Compares To You about Sandy Scipioni, his personal assistant in 1980, who had to leave suddenly after her father's death. http://www.princevault.co...mpares_2_U And Strange Relationship was initially recorded in 1982, http://www.princevault.co...The_Times, so Susannah Melvoin, who hadn't started dating Prince Until around Vanity's departure in August of 83 couldn't have been the original inspiration. Although I do believe Prince could have resurrected and dedicated it to her as well. People get things wrong about his songs, just like Prince says, and even Susan Rogers can also attest to that by getting The Beautiful Ones wrong. I'm sure Prince wrote many songs for SM as he did for Vanity, but the only time I think we can honestly say it's a fact, is when we hear it from the masters mouth, as in The Beautiful Ones about Vanity, and Forever In My Life, about Susannah Melvoin. I think all other songs are debatable and fair game...  [Edited 2/23/17 6:29am] | |
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Thanks TOB for your honesty.
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NotACleverName said:[quote] pnv said: TOB said:
The Purse There are a few other pics of her with it. I'm still lost on the middle of their (romantic) story, and even the beginning is still blurry. Solely with regard to what happen between the chaos of the Livingroom scene and their arrival in Dallas. What changed and when? What was discovered, forgiven, experienced..? What was found that bond them? Because whatever happened it was enough to last them... As this purse obviously remained filled with meaning... and it also once held diamond ear rings. She entitled this story/letter "The Purple Reign Letter" When I say "As a Poet" it usually means how I am analyzing a story, poem, song... Here I don't know enough about their story and I don't know if anyone knows enough about their musing relationship to for certain how much she influenced his creative process. He seemed to be able to easily see what she was seeing. When telling a story or being creative she often fell into a elaborate dramatic (Shakespearean) way of speech that captured your attention and filled your mind with imagery. The more I learn and read about her back then and then listen to his music, the more I believe he was listening. "If I was your girlfriend" was the most recent. [/qmoment No, in fact, he wasn't. In the spirit of keeping information accurate, Prince did NOT write If I Was Your Girlfriend about Vanity. The song was influenced by Susannah Melvoin. The following quote.....: Susannah Melvoin on Prince songs that she inspired: The infamous “Wally,” which no one heard because he destroyed the tape. There's a huge story behind that. “Strange Relationship;” “Nothing Compares 2 U;” In a Large Room with No Light;” “If I was Your Girlfriend.” God, you know there's more and I can't remember... ....was lifted from the following article: http://beautifulnightschi...-with.html To be clear, I am sure there were songs Prince wrote that were influenced by Vanity and their relationship, but please, IIWYG was not one of them. People thought the beautiful ones was written for someone else. But prince himself got that straight he put people on blast. The song was written for the movie Purple Rain and inspired by Vanity as well. You have to remember DMSR the book was a pro Susannah book. It made Susannah out to be the best thing ever. The book it self was very bias. Prince himself said there is so much out there that wasn't true. I stand by my comment if I was ur girlfriend was about Vanity!!! Susannah herself was wrong claiming so many songs where written about her. P put her on blast!!! Adore, Strange but true, Lion of Judah Future baby mama, Breakdown and Revelation all Vanity and many many more!!!! | |
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Reciprocity said:
There are some people who find Vanity's relationship/friendship with Prince an affront because they need for Vanity not to appear close to Prince or in a real relationship. The fact the last months of his life he dedicated songs and openly mourned her dashed beliefs that he and her never spoke or were at odds. The public saw a man mourning for someone who he was supposedly over decades ago. Vanity and Prince's relationship needs to be non existant and with the stories you are telling from her it threatens what some what the public to believe about Prince at this time. It is all about image and PR and marketing and the love story that caught people off guard if Prince and Vanity. Decades, death, public mourning and dying so close together is enough. People see them as lovers like in the NoteBook, The Way We Were etc. The connection was there and you can understand why Vanity is maligned and any thread that makes that connection is conveniently thrwarted and removed. It does not change real but it can hide it for now because others want to be seen as the love of his life - I know it sound weird but that is as what I see and the thing is Denise had the right to always tell her story but waited until death and now she is still getting beat up because Prince connected with her , and left the earth close to her. This is truly strange , sad, but apparently true. [Edited 2/22/17 14:01pm] Amen!!!! | |
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Vashtix said:
I participate in the threads about Denise/Vanity and it has been discouraging that the discussion is stopped by threads disappearing. The volatile atmosphere which results by mere mention of Vanity and Prince as close friends and/or romantic at any level has me very intrigued. People not wanting the information she wrote about her life discussed and saying she lied about her life- Her very own life is amusing to me. She was not sharing it for monetary gain but with you to share as you wish. There is clearly a need to keep the information about Denise/Vanity and her connection to Prince hushed and swept under the rug. A Blatant attempt to quelsh the curiousity and any validation that the two were more than just 80s rock stars on the cover of Rolling Stone. I wish there were people who could alongside with what you have shared to also share. Denise never shared her story ; and I want to discuss her time with him and discuss her -period. She was a force and I was enjoying you sharing about what a legit artist she really was and confirming that she sold her work . I never realized she had so much going on careeer wise prior to Prince. As I said that AMAs story was wonderful. I felt I was along for the ride. I am still waiting for the rest. I want to know how she felt backstage waiting to come on and present and how it felt to be face to face after the show. She is such a great story teller. Do not be silenced and it is good to have good discussion. I hope it can continue. Me too... | |
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TOB said:
Anyone, again, becoming frustrated over the loss of the Vanity and Morris Day thread? Having to re-post, re-argue and re-answer... everything I'd say would now be out of context... frustrating. I have been given no reason why the thread was removed so I have to blindly edit myself, second guess and have to think about being careful what I say or post so no one has a reason to complain. Was it images of the unpublished pages? Was it the image of her and Prince in heaven with the words "Find the Angels" picture that Denise created and published in her book? Was it the magazine articles, the picture from Actors as Artist? With out specifics to understand the complaint anything and everything I post could prove to be offensive or controversial.
Plus, I'm beginning to get some grief from unexpected places that want to see and or approve my post before I post (not going to happen, not in this life).
Something is up...
I'm sorry you are being given such a hard time TOB. You are sharing Denise's writings just like many others on here share writings from various books. Books that actually have detrimental alleged info about Prince. You were not being disrespectful to Prince in anyway. I can't put my finger on one thing you've shared that was so bad. It's strange to say the least... [Edited 2/23/17 6:04am] | |
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Tigerlilyluv said:
No problem. On Susannah.. I believe I read that it was Susan that said Prince phoned Susannah and broke off the engagement out of nowhere and told her to leave. She said they were surprised or shocked because I guess Susannah was caught off guard. Only God knows Prince's reason for calling it off. About these books... there are several books out and a few of them are in conflict with each other, some words in these books versus what some others that knew Prince are saying seems contradicting, and some of these books have stuff in them that's hearsay--which doesn't mean it's truth, you know what I mean? Prince said in 2014 or 2015 to Ebony Mag that so much was wrong. We would never know what that wrong is. I don't want to argue either. I have a habit I'm trying hard to break (giving my opinion), so pay me no mind. I mean no one any harm, I promise you.
PNV said: People thought the beautiful ones was written for someone else. But prince himself got that straight he put people on blast. The song was written for the movie Purple Rain and inspired by Vanity as well. You have to remember DMSR the book was a pro Susannah book. It made Susannah out to be the best thing ever. The book it self was very bias. Prince himself said there is so much out there that wasn't true. I stand by my comment if I was ur girlfriend was about Vanity!!! Susannah herself was wrong claiming so many songs where written about her. P put her on blast!!! Adore, Strange but true, Lion of Judah Future baby mama, Breakdown and Revelation all Vanity and many many more!!!!
Tigerlilyluv: You are correct, In the books below it states as you've said from Susan Rogers. PNV: I've read DMSR and Possessed and I agree that both books look favorable on SM and are belittling to Vanity. You can tell just from the highlighted statement below by her best friend and Prince general manager Karen Krattinger, that the contributors to the book held SM in high regards as many of them befriended her. I didn't mind that they spoke highly of Susannah. She seems like a decent person and seemed to have loved Prince very much. I'm not surprised her friends would gush about her. It's the fact that the contributors tore Vanity down without a kind word towards her that bugs me. I don't Blame Susannah though, I blame the authors for not finding better research where Vanity was concerned. I read these books because I like to have the knowledge of what's being said, but I always weigh the fields, and take everything with a grain of salt. Page 111 Possessed- Prince relationship with Susannah continued to be poisoned by his voracious appetite for other women. His callous treatment of Susannah was also upsetting to Karen Krattinger. Who by now had become general manager of Prince's production company. Susannah was one of her best friends and still Krattinger was ordered to perform odious task like installing her in an apartment after Prince banished her from his home. "Prince put me in the middle of his relationship way too much. I saw him throwing away and hurting the most wonderful women I felt he would ever know." Prince made little secret with his dalliance of numerous other women. While one night stands were a frequent occurrence steady companions were Jill Jones and Sheila E. A tense and unpleasant dynamics was emerging between Susannah and Sheila who encountered each other not infrequently as a result of their intersecting musical and personal relationship with Prince. Page 196 DMSR- He was also living with Susannah. She was wearing his ring. He loved her and didn't want to lose her but he didn't think he could carry out his commitment. Prince rented a condo in the Lake Calhoun district of Minneapolis and persuaded Susannah to live there. "He decided he couldn't live with Susannah said Rogers. He wasn't ready for a full term committed relationship. It sounds like such a simple way to describe such a complex thing, the truth is that he just wasn't ready. And he realized that at the time. He wanted her at the time. He wanted her in his life, but he didn't want her at his elbow, right beside him all the time. He couldn't go to sleep and wake up with the same person every day and share everything on that level. Susannah was very unhappy about it." After she moved out Prince started going out with other women and it was obvious that his relationship with Susannah would not survive. Without being discreet, he dated women aspiring actress Troy Beyer and Sherilyn, Jackie ST Clair and Carol Davis. [Edited 2/23/17 18:01pm] | |
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I get the feeling they felt Vantiy was not good enough for Prince. She was this pretty Black girl (I know she was mixed) but to them it comes across as if they felt Vanity was just an annoyance and not "good" in contrast to Sussannah. Vanity however was more like Prince than the others and was his true mirror and we saw that over the decades. You can hear that same sentiment with people wanting to discuss nothing but drug use, men she had sex with while with Prince even, and witchcraft. They can try to minimize her to that but her life was so much more and when those discussions begin they are abruptly ended. She had a career in acting and modeling prior to Prince, ,during and after Prince. She was not to be denied. Their dislike for her is evident to this day when they discuss Vanity. They will remain jealous of a ghost because their dear, sweet Prince is with Vanity. God allowed them to finally have time alone without the army of haters. She got her supernatural hook up. Who gets the last say? | |
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I just remembered in Jill's interview she said Prince told her he had to get engaged. Sounds business like to me. I think it was an arrangement so he could get something from the Melvoin connection. Prince knew what to do and he did it and I am not hating on the Brother for maneuvereing to get ahead and funding for films etc. I never felt he was in mad love with her or Sheila or Jill. I LOVE Jill. LOVE JILL. Prince gave his heart to Vanity. Everyone can see it and all the hype over wives/protoges etc pale in comparison to a connection that lasted throughout the decades. R.I.P. Beautiful Ones. | |
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Reciprocity said: I just remembered in Jill's interview she said Prince told her he had to get engaged. Sounds business like to me. I think it was an arrangement so he could get something from the Melvoin connection. Prince knew what to do and he did it and I am not hating on the Brother for maneuvereing to get ahead and funding for films etc. I never felt he was in mad love with her or Sheila or Jill. I LOVE Jill. LOVE JILL. Prince gave his heart to Vanity. Everyone can see it and all the hype over wives/protoges etc pale in comparison to a connection that lasted throughout the decades. R.I.P. Beautiful Ones. Prince gave his heart to many women that he loved, he loved jill, sheila, susan, susannah and vanity for different reasons. People forget that sheila had a connection for decades also. |
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