SoulAlive said:

and there it is.

vainandy said:

True Andy, people were not ready to re-live the 70's in the 80's.
It was too soon to be nostalgia. We can blame that on Wendy and Lisa
I read that they were big on the Beatles sound and ATWIAD definitely was a nod to the Beatles and beatnik sound.

The only people I have ever met that didn't think it was a disappointment are right here on the org. Everyone I've ever known says Prince lost his damn mind after "Purple Rain" and never returned.

I know countless Prince fans that bought three or four albums after "Purple Rain" hoping Prince had come back to his senses, only to be disappointed with each album. They weren't waiting on a "Purple Rain 2", they were waiting on the "Old Prince" to come back....the hard jamming motherfucker from 1978-1984....not the artsy/fartsy retro Prince that began in 1985.



And those are the same reviewers that didn't know who the hell Prince was before "Little Red Corvette".

vainandy said:

yep.
most of those fans were the R & B fan base that he lost after PR. He never really recovered it. I can't tell you how many people say Prince hasn't done anything since PR.
The superbowl performance really open a lot of people's eyes. I know 2 people at work who teased me about digging Prince and saying he's all washed up after PR. After seeing him perform live... both said now they want to go to a prince concert.
The fact is, his saving grace is his superb live performances. The recorded CD's are sometimes a miss except by the hardest core fans... but even "casual" Prince fans stay with him because of his legendary performances.
Seriously 3121 does not translate well on the radio while driving around town. A lot of cuts sounds like filler music unless you are a Prince fan and have followed his musical growth/change. There is nothing that makes you want to tell your passenger to shut up, turn the volume up and jam... except Black Sweat... and that song was cut short. He could have played it another minute just jamming the chorus and heavy on the bass.
That remix would have been the JAM.

Exactly.




Lisa was fine by herself. She had been around for years but things didn't start changing until Wendy came on board. Beginning with "Around The World In A Day", there was a drastic change in Prince's sound. "Parade" was even more drastic and went further and further from the "Old Prince" that everyone wanted back. Prince knew it too, that's why he misled the public with the lead single "Kiss" and then shit all over them when they bought and heard the rest of the album. When I heard Prince had fired The Revolution before "Sign O Theh Times", I was excited as hell.....until I heard the album. The girls were gone but their influence remained.

Another thing, if Prince had never had his crossover pop success with "Little Red Corvette" and the "Purple Rain" album/movie and had still remained known only in the R&B world, those earlier fans would have laughed his ass all the way back to Minneapolis if he had released those late 80s type "creative", "experimental", "work of art" albums....in say....maybe 1981 or 1982. Rick James would have come along and swallowed Prince's ass like a whale swallowing a tic tac.
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[Edited 5/9/07 14:24pm]

vainandy said:

I forgot about old Rick. Truthfully, that was the real competion... Rick James vs. Prince.... nobody ever compared Prince with Michael Jackson, except Michael Jackson fans.

When Prince competed against Rick... his shyte was TIGHT!! His band was TIGHT... actually Prince in the studio was TIGHT because before PR, Prince did most if not all recordings by himself... then taught the hired band before hitting the road. That was really the best imho.

Once he got in the recording studie with the Revolution... all these things like Beatnik sound etc started creeping in his style. there is a reason that Wendy, Lisa and who ever else wanted to influence Prince were not a recording artist by themselves.

That is because that sound was wacked out... and nobody wanted to listen to it.

Exactly. When a co-worker of mine heard that Prince was going to be on the Super Bowl, he said....."I used to love Prince back in the Dirty Mind and Controversy days. I had to let his ass go after Purple Rain when he started doing all that weird ass music. I didn't know he was still around. I just assumed he was in an insane asylum by now".

prodigalfan said:

Well, him taking credit for things that others wrote is widely known. But publicly, the snub for We Are The World on the very night he turned it out at the AMA and then his bodyguards were fucking folks up later that night....I don't believe I have ever seen a change in events and public perception change in one night. This goes right back to what I was sayin' earlier. When much is given, much is expected. The whole world was watching P that night as well they should have. It was his night. He had the perfect chance to tell Quincy "U want me to sing a line with Michael?...Yeah,..sounds good and makes perfect sense. I think we'll sound good together. ...And thank u for inviting me down. I'm hounored. Any thing I can do to help, just let me know. ..Huh? ...U want me to add a guitar solo? U sure? O.K.". His pressence on that song would have made that record so much more money to help starving people. For him to pass on that hurt me. I remember that. I also felt bad for Prince himself. That he would do that and i knew how bad it made him look. This guy had the year of a lifetime. And for him to be like "What? Quincy wants me to sing with who?! Oh hell no! I'm not doubling that line with Michael. Fuck that. Tell him I'll play a guitar solo AFTER everyone else had split.' So see his actions dictated a reverse spell. This time, it was negative. I mean in a few hours, he went from being the darling wonderboy to some cruel, no feeling having asshole. That was how it was spun. By the next day, the media was ALL over it. Billy Crystal is on SNL spoofing Prince singing "I am the World, I am the Children".

Once Prince was known in the pop world, that's when the Michael Jackson comparisons started because they only knew Rick for "Super Freak" and nothing else. The only reason they compared Prince to Michael is because they both were black and feminine. Rick was more a run for Prince's money musically and the R&B world knew it.



Hell yeah! Those were the BEST years for both Prince and Rick! Until Prince could be known in the pop world, he had to compete with the hardest thing in the funk world at the time, which was Rick James. They were both making hard strong, and most importantly, "current" sounding funk at the time.....not retro 60s or 70s funk/R&B that critics could praise as "art" but the general public did not want.

All that retro stuff is fine beginning in the 1990s when R&B as a whole turned to complete bullshit, but as long as current music is good as a whole, keep your sound current. Hell, if Prince were to come out with a 1940s "Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy of Company B" type album in the 2000s, that would be fine too because today's current music is bullshit. However, in the 1980s, music, in general, was still great.



I bought Wendy and Lisa's first album when it first came out. I never bought another one.
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[Edited 5/9/07 14:45pm]

I'm a huge Vanity fan and of course have been tracking this thread.

As someone who's a front person, I'd like to say that who you surround yourself with is paramount. And front people- no matter how talented/genious- are NOTHING without the individuals surrounding them and contributing to live performance, recordings and over all image/sound.

Mr. Rogers (as I like to call him) was smart. He picked amazing people to play and work with. Just look at what Jimmy, Terry, Monte, "St." Paul & the others have done aside from The Time! Did you guys know that Jellybean has written several songs (a couple of them HUGE hits- 'Black Cat' by Janet- just to name one) and ABSOLUTELY shreds/cleans HOUSE on guitar??? Wendy & Lisa have done very well for themselves quietly producing for other artists and soundtracks. And aside from The Family & The Time, Paul has his own records & work with his family.

And Vanity- though she wasn't given the same attention/exposure on Motown- really did some of her best work AWAY from that camp. To be frank- and I ABSOLUTELY adore V6(!)- I prefer her later solo songs & performances. She learned TONS from Mr. Rogers and from being in that act, but she looks far more comfortable and confident as a solo artist.

To get back on track... As a woman and a performer, I'm glad that Vanity took a stand. She worked very hard during that time and became a commodity in her own right. It's true that horrible things happened to her afterwards (she didn't make the best decisions- drugs WILL do that), but she knows that, admits it and has figured things out. She's leading a healthy and productive life now and really... It's all water under the bridge.

I applaud her for having the balls to walk away and risk loosing everything at the height of her career.

Not many people are that brave.
[Edited 5/11/07 0:58am]

LollyPopLife said:

I thought Vanity was a pretty good actress. She had lots of charisma.

LollyPopLife said:

Nice post. But I don't believe V left because of the lack of money. Like I posted earlier, there is no way in hell she didn't know what was going on. Early in the stages, if P talked about it the most to anyone, it would have been her. She represented his muse in this picture. She knew it wasn't going to be a grip of money handed out to actors. But she knew the payoff from the exposure she would have gotten would have been priceless. She wanted to be a star and keeping her fine ass there would have done it for her. I know by the time of prepping for the film, P and V were no longer a couple. Again, I think it was too hard for her to be around P, especially if she was still into him. It's easier for men, even if we still have feelings, to just keep going like nothing has happened. P had a lot on his plate, so he easily could have lost himself in what he was doing, not having to deal with any emotional things. If anything, I can see where P fed off of it whereas V couldn't stand being there anymore. Despite of the golden ticket she was handed.

^^^

I also remember reading that P wanted V to stay home like a good wife, while he tore the town up... with whomever. And it has to be hard for someone as pretty and desired as Vanity was during this time, to be placed on a shelf like a toy until P wanted her. The going to the touring bus and deciding which woman would be priveleged with his company would have to be a blow to the ego... and Vanity had to have a monster ego.

I am sure not only from fans either. Didn't she have an affair with a manager of P's.... there is no telling what he was filling her head with during pillow talk... and since P hadn't really BLEW up yet...

I stand by the opinion that several people in his group probably didn't realize that lightining would strike someone in their circle and felt they were as good as P in their own endeavors... and why not them?

Look at the Commodores, Harold Melvin and the Blue Notes, the Jackson 5 for chissake.
Every one of these groups was a group of very talented people... I am sure everyone of them thought the talent was equal, but it was not.
Same for P's camp.

Well, several things could have played it's part in Vanity's departure. Money was one possible reason and another reason can be due to the personal relationship between Prince and Vanity (which I've heard various rumors about). I've hear things from a rumored affair Vanity may have had with the director of the film 'Purple Rain', Vanity's drug use, and even Prince's "ladies man" ways catching up with him. It's been rumored that he was seeing both Susan and Vanity from Vanity 6 and then there's Wendy's sister. I do know that during that time his music was changing and his direction was changing. You can hear it in The Time's third album, Sheila E.'s debut album, Prince and The Revolution's 'Purple Rain' album, and the self-titled debut from Apollonia 6. Vanity 6's second album was in the works prior to the filming of 'Purple Rain' and from the looks of it the direction of that project was away from the 'Nasty Girl' approach from their self-titled debut album with more mature tracks like their unreleased version of '17 Days'. Then again, the unreleased track 'Vibrator' and their unreleased versions of 'G-Spot' and 'Sex Shooter' was just taking it to the next level.

prodigalfan said:

Yes,Vanity had an affair with Albert Magnoli,the director of 'Purple Rain'.I don't know if Prince was aware of it,though.Perhaps that had something to do with her leaving the project?

have to throw my in here...
My understanding is that Susan Moonsie was his "primary" gf leading up to all this...and that she was cool and/or secure enough to back off when Vanity came on scene but that their relationship continued for a bit. Also, that P was never really serious about Vanity from a relationship perspective.
Vanity had a lot of "issues" at the time, drugs being just one- and he couldn't/wouldn't deal with all of that. Then, in '83 Susannah Melvoin came on scene. A whole new world for him, forced him to treat relationships differently- for a while anyway-....hence change in music, etc.

The part of Prince's girlfriend was offered to Jennifer Beals but she turned it down and so Apollonia was given the role.In defence of Apollonia I think she played her part very well, she and Prince had chemistry. She did a good job, Apollonia is hot. I wonder if Vanity regrets not doing Purple Rain? She probably wouldn't admit it if she did

blue22 said:

great post!
I agree that having to be around your associates/friends and your old boyfriend has a new girlfriend he is sporting around... it has to be a blow to your ego and the best thing is to get out of that situation if you can. and if someone is whispering in your ear of all the fame you can get without your ex... why wouldn't you walk. I guess I probably would too.
And it is true that people WANTED to see Vanity in PR. It would be like a long 1 hour + V6 video for many Vanity fans. And she did have fans... the dude I was dating LOVED Vanity... and then based all his judgements of what was beautiful... compared to Vanity (and no, I look NOTHING like her... so our romance was doomed to say the least... )

And you are right Vanity having already acted in movies... deserved more money than the average. And the movie was really focused on Prince's and Apollonia (Vanity)'s character more so than the members of Revolution or the Time.
More lines for Apollonia (Vanity's) character than probably EVERYONE else except Prince.
[Edited 5/13/07 21:16pm]

blue22 said:

I agree this is a very perceptive post. I think Ms. Matthews had a childhood that fueled insecurity and in turn she became attracted to drugs and the stage. In a way I can't blame her because it seems she struggled with alot of things in her life.

I always thought she was beautiful, charasmatic, funny and charming. I guess we all have things to overcome in our life and learn our own lessons.

lipstick said:

As I understand it,Jennifer Beals auditioned for the role but they rejected her.She was "hot" at the time (thanks to 'Flashdance'),I think they didn't want the film to be overshadowed by her.They wanted an unknown to play Prince's girlfriend.

SoulAlive said:

Exactly.

SoulAlive said:

Vanity could have been a lot like Janet Jackson.

I love this comparison, I'm a huge Bowie fan and Prince reminds me a lot of Bowie, especially in how they both thrived artistically the most when they were somewhat underground.

blackguitaristz said:[quote]SoulAlive said:[quote]
Right. Nor did the public WANT to keep up with him. P, at his best, I feel, is when he's outside of the mainstream. Not in the center of it. Before Purple Rain, P was the ultimate star. Very much like how Bowie was in the 70's.

It never really bothered me that V6 broke up, although Prince was clearly inspired by Vanity and would have put together a hot follow-up lp for them. It was what it was.

I agree that Vanity’s heart was broken and ego crushed. I think her money demands were really a smoke screen.

ATWIAD was a colossal mistake, musically and timing, as were the 2 albums after that (as much as I enjoy them) but Prince did what he thought he had to do to expand his career. I think he could have waited until fall ’85 and released an album containing:

Side 1
America
She’s Always In My Hair
Pop Life
Condition of The Heart
Raspberry Beret

Side 2
A Love Bizarre
Mutiny
Nothing Compares 2 U
Screams of Passion

This is Purple Rain-ish but still heading in new musical directions.

Adisa said:

I'm with you. This would have been a great follow up to PR.

I've always admired Prince for being arguably the greatest recording artist ever. The PR period during 1984-85 was a strange period. When he appeared at the PR premiere in Hollywood he looked totally whacked out of his skull. It didn't look like drugs but a mental condition. He looked like he was on a verge of a nervous breakdown. It must have been really overwhelming

vainandy said:

Hey vainandy, I've been a long-term browser around here but a short-term poster. It didn't take me long to discover your views on this topic loud and clear and I've finally decided to respond to a few points. Firstly, I totally get where you're coming from on this so please don't get me the wrong way.

I wasn't around at the time of SOTT release (in fact I was born that year) so I only have hindsight to work with, instead of hindsight AND direct experience. Nonetheless, despite your argument that SOTT was out of place in its context, I still have to disagree on your negative assessment of the album. I have much older siblings and cousins who were in awe of the album at the time of its release (albiet this was in Australia so I guess it's a little different) - particularly by the mystique of the first video and then the MTV performance. This 'rude boy' mystique had eroded post-Purple Rain but I think for at least one album he recaptured it again.

As far as the 60s and 70s throwback that you argue, songs like "It', "Hot Thing", "Sign O' The Times" are very rooted in the 1980s imo. Where would a song like "If I Was Your Girlfriend" fit in the 1960s or 1970s? The thing I think Prince did on this record that he DIDN'T do on ATWIAD or Parade was to flavour the influences with his own unique style, and not just try to emulate them. "Starfish & Coffee" maybe Beatle-esque but it's like a Beatle-esque tune from Mars, backward drum loops n' all. "The Ballad Of Dorothy Parker" is basically a pop-contemporary take on Jazz, which imo is progressive by todays standards.

I can understand how the abandoning of his black musical roots in favour of more eclectic styles would have unsettled his original fanbase but I think it's easier to criticise than to try to understand his actions. Prince was at the helm of a musical revolution that tied together the worlds of black and white like never before. By the time of 1999 his sound was the single most imitated in the pop world, to the point of it being stripped away from him - it was no longer his, it was everybody's. It's only natural for an artist with his hunger, vision and drive to try and change course. He did this on ATWIAD and Parade with varied results but I think he nailed it on SOTT. How is "Adore" all that different from "Do Me, Baby" anyway? The industrial sounding drum arrangements from the early days were heard on "It" and "Hot Thing". The rockabilly-esque/pop ditty vibe of "Strange Relationship" is not that far removed from "Jack U Off" or even "Uptown" imo.

I also think it's his 'full-circle' album, his 80s-wrap up if you will. Elements of the early days and that artsy fartsy stuff as you call it. His "look ma' no hands record" like ?uestlove calls it or his "White album" in the words of Pete Townshend. Maybe it is a case of it working better in hindsight so I guess instead of judging it in context, maybe judge it on musical merit. No artist, before or since, could jump so effortlessly from style to style and still produce a cohesive whole. Maybe it's a case of it being so ahead of its time that it didn't quite fit during its time.
[Edited 5/25/07 7:28am]

The hindsight here is amusing. What did you want in 1985? The choices seem to be: (1) Purple Rain 2; (2) an album full of pop songs; or (3) something different.

I remember being ecstatic when a new album was released in 1985. I didn't expect anything from Prince for another year or two. And as we all recall, ATWIAD spent 3 weeks at #1.

Check your history and see how many artists had #1 albums immediately after their monster breakthrough hits.

Prince said during the ATWIAD period he could have made "Purple Rain 2" and raked in the dough but he was about moving forward. He went where his music took him, and he went where he could take a risk.

Have you ever seen an artist that is a bigger risk-taker than Prince? I haven't. The gambles don't always pay off but as I once read on a bathroom wall, "You'll regret the things in life that you don't do far more than the things that you do".

Oh, and I guess I'd better mention Vanity so I keep on topic. She was hot.