This forum is called Prince: Music and More. Why do threads that discuss Prince and race/racism get routinely locked here? Does race not fall into the "and more" category? Prince addresses race in his music, therefore it seems that the topic should be open for discussion here.

It is annoying that discussions about Prince and race are not allowed to continue in this forum. However, the forum is allowed to be flooded with threads about what Prince eats, whether Prince gets mad, dedicating songs to Prince, etc. Are lightweight topics the only ones that qualify for the "and more" category?

I don't mind the "Race," based threads...It's only ethnic backgrounds that make the world a beautiful place.

It's the uppity arguments that get out of hand 4 some reason, that ends up closing them.

Tame said:

Well stated, Tame

They usually tend to go off track and start getting heated and tending to go down south from there as it was starting to.

You can see why I locked it http://prince.org/msg/7/304421?&pg=4

Plus the continual what is Prince's ethnicity threads tend to be a and always get out of hand.

luv4u said:

Actually, I don't see it. I think it is healthy to have discussions like the one on the thread you locked whether they get heated or not. I think personal insults are uncalled for, but spirited disagreement is fine. The failure to have real dialogue about race keeps things like the Prince race issue coming back again and again. Some people might actually learn some things or re-evaluate their own beliefs.

The title of the thread that you just locked opened the door for a race-based discussion. So many of the other threads in this forum get OT or go downhill from the start, but they are still open. To each his own, but I think it is a loss/disservice to lock some of the race-based threads so soon.

and since we're discussing the site, we're going to move this thread to site discussion.

(oh, oops....June7 beat me to it! )

bellanoche said:

No point having it open when it's getting way off track and ending up going titty for tatty.

If it goes way off topic and all about racism it can end up in P & R sometimes.

Sometimes those threads that get created are intentional bait too.

race 2 what? isn't it a shame that in the 21st century race still matters ..well i guess i was sleeping so call me a dreamer 2

L4OATheOriginal said:

No disrespect L4, but yes isn't it a shame L4, that race can't be discussed on any of these forums or basically anywhere on message boards, websites, etc., with respect, without someone being insulted? Unfortunately, that is the way it is in the outside world and across the internet. To pretend we live in a kumbaya society doesn't solve the issue either. Sure it's easy to say, "color doesn't matter" but seriously, are you living in a glass house and not really looking at what's going on outside of it?

It's easy to say, "Gee I wish color didn't matter" or "color doesn't matter" because that's an easier copout than dealing with the fact that the issue exists doesn't it? Fact is, it does, that is the reality of it. Those who are not afraid to bring that issue to the forefront are the ones that will help change things in our society, not the ones wearing the rose-colored glasses, and shoving the issue in the corner praying it goes away or singing kumbaya all day long to dismiss the fact that the problem still exists. That's like an abused woman praying the next time her man abuses her and says he's sorry, that the next time he does it and says "sorry", that she'll actually believes he means it, only problem is, he continues to kick her ass. If she keeps pretending the abuse doesn't exist and allow it to continue, by doing nothing, about it and pretending there isn't an abuse problem, then naturally the abuse will continue, and "nothing" will change.

Just look at some of the below links to locked threads. Even if some try their best to educate others about "ignorant, stereotypical assumptions or racist insults" stated by a particular individual or others have made, are they wrong for taking a stand and doing so? Absolutely not.

You posted a line from one of P's song about "race" issues, and unfortunately, yes, it is a shame that racist attitudes still exist in 2009. Only way to dispel ignorant, stereotypical comments, is through discussions and educating others on race matters/various cultures, etc., not sweeping it under the rug, sugar-coating it, telling someone in a disrespectful manner to basically "shut-up" about it or finding a way to "dismiss" it altogether by "don't discuss it" as if the problem will magically go away, even at the risk of high emotions/anger/disagreements.

Like Bellanoche stated, constantly locking these type threads only allows the cycle to continue and same questions to be asked over and over again. Mods already know when to snip out the "insults" and give warnings if insults or derogatory remarks are made within a thread, but at the same time, should at least allow some of these discussions to continue with a watchful eye. Just my two cents, and I'll end it there. Peace.

http://prince.org/msg/100/304297
http://prince.org/msg/100/304375
http://prince.org/msg/5/302280
http://prince.org/msg/100/304372
[Edited 4/21/09 18:09pm]

L4OATheOriginal said:

It certainly is a shame that race matters. Unfortunately to many it is the default reason for everything. If one allows themselves to be defined by skin colour then they automatically define others in the same way. All the time we have the mentality that it "matters" what the colour of your skin is (not what culture you are,what background you are, what has moulded you)then we will have this issue.
I, for one, pray for the day that we see difference in people not colour.

2 both zellijah and mdriver


i hear what both of u r saying and even tho i tend 2 try and block out a person's skin color, i'm not blind 2 the cruelties of this world in how one can b judged and treated because of it. yes in my lifetime i've come across racism and ignorant people. but the only thing i can do is just try and live my life by we're all 1 or better yet:

RACE IN A SPACE I MARK HUMAN
RACE FACE THE MUSIC WE'RE ALL BONES WHEN WE'RE DEAD
RACE IN A SPACE I MARK HUMAN
CUT ME CUT U BOTH THE BLOOD IS RED

COLOR ME HAPPY

L4OATheOriginal said:

Thanks L4, I live my life everyday happy, humble, appreciative of my life and the blessings that have come my way as a "human being" despite the ugliness that exists in this society that I, and quite frankly, all of us have to deal with. However, I can mark "Human" in any space, but that doesn't solve society's issues does it? You see, I would be foolish to think that everyone sees the world as you or I do, and think all society's ills will be solved, just because we're both aware we are "human, have red blood and bones and can by "choice" mark human in a space that inquires about our race/ethnicity. Actually, it's what one does or contribute as a human being, in this life, to help "correct" many of the existing, ugly ills within society that makes one "human."

I can go about my life and just worry about my own, but I'm just not that kind of individual. I could be so selfish and not care about anyone else or what else is going on in this world, but I refuse to be that way, because that is what is wrong with the world right now, and the reason behind the condition it's in, because people prefer to "sleep" on these issues, rather than "awaken" to the realities of it.
[Edited 4/12/09 10:01am]

2elijah said:

Amen!

And the more Prince tries to do it by discussing issues of race and racism as they really are in the world, folks seem to want to ignore or misinterpret his lyrics or even worse, call him a racist for doing so. Look at the visceral reactions on this site in the past to songs like "Muse 2 the Pharaoh," "Family Name," "Dear Mr. Man," "Peace," "Colonized Mind," etc. I mean folks were dubbing Prince a full-on racist after TRC.

However, when we try to have discussions that could bring about some kind of enlightenment they get locked for being too heated. You are always going to have some fools who post things out of pocket, but why censor those who are honestly and earnestly discussing the topic with the hope of bringing about the change that will make us all more "human." Ignorance is not bliss, it is deadly and it perpetuates the racism that is still so pervasive today. A dreamer cannot do anything while asleep. Folks have to awaken to what is real and work to change it. Education is the first and most powerful weapon in the arsenal of change.

bellanoche said:

Absolutely, well said.
[Edited 4/12/09 15:03pm]

L4OATheOriginal said:

Yes, I've loved Prince since 1983 and I never knew or cared what race he was and still don't. It doesn't matter.

bellanoche said:

It's no different than anytime Prince + a more serious topic comes up. Doesn't matter if it's race or sexuality or anything else. Somebody comes in and makes a mess of things, or behaves like a fammy prat, and ruins it for everyone else.

At least on those "look at Prince's bum!" type threads there's little chance of accidentally delving into mean-spirited or offensive territory.

meow85 said:

It's just disheartening that for an artist whose music has covered myriad (political, religious, racial, philosophical, etc.) topics, mostly trivial discussions are allowed to thrive in the forum devoted to him and his music. Based on the discussions that take place in PnR, it seems that some really thoughtful discussions about Prince and race, politics, religion, etc. could take place. However, the extent of the Prince and religion topics in PM&M are "Larry Graham ruined Prince" or "I hope Prince is no longer a JW," and the racial discussions come down to "Prince is half-white" or "Prince has had plastic surgery because no one with two black parents can have a nose like his." It's pathetic.

bellanoche said:

I agree with everything you just said and more.

With an artist like Prince there is so much potential for serious, even deep, conversations about race or sexuality or gender or politics or the entertainment industry or, hell, music! (I hear the lil guy noodles around on an instrument or two... ) But since some people either can't respond with maturity, or they go on the offensive automatically, or they want to do nothing but bow down at their homemade purple altars any conversation on this site goes nowhere.

I really wish we could seperate the M&M forum into crazies and non-crazies.

meow85 said:

I wish we could do that for all the forums

mdiver said:

While that would be nice, so far the only forum it annoys me in is M&M.

meow85 said:

I agree with you on both the "crazy and non-crazies" as well as the extremely high annoying factor of M&M.

Seriously, the M&M crazies have just about ruined it for me. Before the Lotusflow3r release, I barely posted there anymore. The times I do post are those rare occasions when music, race, politics or something other than "post pics of Prince and drool" is the topic. I mean we all know the man is fine, but do we really need 20 picture threads dedicated to his fineness? And I can't even comment on the "Dedicate a song to Prince" or "Does Prince get mad" threads.

bellanoche said:

I think the lil guy is cute too, but those "pics of princey's package!" type threads are just so god-awful annoying. Ditto that for speculation threads like Who Will He Marry Next?, Are You Prince's Soulmate?, Do You Think Prince is Lonely?

I rarely post in that forum anymore, the nutter fams have made such a mess of it.

bellanoche said:

totally agree, 100% !!!

but there is a real problem in the forums when 1) the "discussion" turns from thoughtful to spiteful and insulting; and 2) the issue of racism spills into each and every single thread, no matter what the original topic of the thread was.

discussion of this issue is one thing, and when done in a healthy fashion it can be very positive and educational.

but imo the forcible promotion of one viewpoint over another totally destroys any positive progress made toward mutual understanding and creates a secondary problem, not unlike racism itself. in cases like this, the thread is best locked from the get-go.

just my 2c

XxAxX said:

As long as posts don't get insulting or out of hand I think it's good to discuss race. I don't think Prince would be offended since he started the disscussion of it a long time ago and people have the right to be curious. We'll probably never know the true answer to the questions but, it doesn't hurt to talk about it.

The main problem is, the race-baiting here is allowed to unnecessarily go on with no action taken against it. That accounts to too much favoritism and protection, along with too much "targeting" and separate rules.

MuthaFunka said:

http://prince.org/msg/105/305058?&pg=9

the way i see it, the argument of 'favoritism' and 'protectionism' goes both ways. not to mention, the baiting goes both ways. because too often the 'discussion' devolves into a flat-out argument of whose perspective is more valid.

i don't know if you were around back then but back in 2001, when the Rainbow Children came out, the P&R forum was rife with threads arguing the relative merits of the Jehova's Witness religious theology, methodology and social impact.

people (yes, me included i'm sorry to say) engaged in lengthy, heated debates about the validity of the JW faith, it's impact on the greater community and the rights and wrongs of various aspects of JW religion. a lot of blood was spilled during those 'discussions'. nothing good ever really came of those threads and eventually an ORG policy change came about - ALL JW threads were locked from the start, before they could turn into battlegrounds.

imo, the race threads have become that sort of 'hot-button' issue in the P&R forum. they almost always devolve, they don't actually promote better understanding and in fact they create even more of a rift, a greater divide between ORGers, who line up along color lines. imo they make things worse, by engendering anger and resentment and personal infighting.

i'd love to say that we here at the ORG are able to handle discussions that are this sensitive but i think that in fact, the internet is not the best forum for discussions of this type. anonymity and the lack of face-to-face contact seem to promote a lack of sensitivity, and encourage heated exchanges as we cannot really gauge the effect of our words on other people through this medium.

this is just my 2c, based on observation.

XxAxX said:

Naw, I've been a firsthand witness to how the favoritism/protection gets into full effect and how the targeting is overwhelmingly slanted. I've also seen race-baiting allowed to no end, only to be told "It's just their opinion" or "both sides are doing it" as opposed to stopping the catalyst.