Since the 2nd thread grew sooooo long.....

By now, you've certainly seen the recent developments plastered on the main page of the Org and other Prince fan sites. Whether you agree, disagree, or just don't know what to think about what's going on, here's your place to express thoughts, arguments, questions, and whatever else you may think is relevant to the situation.

Just one thing: KEEP IT CIVIL.

To review the previous thread, follow this link: http://prince.org/msg/3/251366

Im glad they have took the Read Messages down, cause it started to sound like the Parez Hilton site with all the haters not just the ones who disagree with Princes decision, but the ones who aint interested in the issue.

I have to agree there, seems like to many people have jumped on the 'Lets slag Prince bandwagon' and find this as a golden opportunity to turn this into a complete shambles.
Whether we agree or disagree its good for everyone to be able to express their opinions and for good points to be raised and discussed, lets just respect

Does anyone know if this has been resolved, i mean they have been in talks etc and wasnt their suppose to be a joint statement coming out.

Come on Prince, Housequake, Princefams and Prince.org get it sorted so we can get back to the Music

I agree that things have cooled down a little bit around here.

Still, it's too early to completely relax.
Whenever the next development comes along, if its not Prince holding a press conference or coming forward and apologizing or whatever, there's still going to be backlash.

I've stated repeatedly that I will remain a supporter of Prince throughout this. In fact, this fiasco hasn't really affected me at all as a supporter. But I have found that it's not entirely safe to have a huge opinion on either said here because those who think differently than I do have attacked me for it.

But I always do my part to stick to my guns and keep the positivity going. Because some of the people here bummed out by all this backlash have asked me to stick around for the sake of keeping this place from becoming 100% negative.

I'm also sticking around to see what'll be like when the dust clears, just like quite a few other people are.

June7 said:

Prince has a right to do it what he wants with his shit... So if it means closing this fucker down, then so be it.

DreamyPopRoyalty said:

Prince = Press Conference Maybe, Prince = apologizing Never.

But I have noticed in unrelated threads say if someone starts a thread about the Music some still have a dig at Prince so i guess its gonna take a lot of hard work to win them around again but hey thats life cant please everyone.

SummerRain said:

cream72 said:

Yeah, you're right. He doesn't apologize much... and about this, haha, I don't know what I was thinking when I said this. 1) He IS Prince and 2) he's just protecting his music (and himself). As far as he sees it, he did nothing wrong.
And I happen to agree. But his tactical approach wasn't the best way it could have been.

I'd like to say "if you don't like the way things are going and can't keep it civil (with the attacking Prince himself to a minimum), why are you still here, at a FAN site?" People could ask me the same thing. Why do I stick around if few people seem to agree with the way I view things and I get attacked for that?

I'm still here for Prince and his music, along with some people who enjoy my positive posting.

This isn't the same place it was when I got here earlier this year, but it was a big step in my journey as a supporter of Prince. I learned pretty everything I know about him here in addition to the music itself. It'd be a pity if it disappeared. But with the way things are, what's the point of this place if nothing is getting accomplished with all the fighting?

I've heard both sides of the story and thought them over for the past week. People say that I shouldn't diss the old-school people for "turning their backs on Prince" and that I should listen to them and learn from them.

I have listened and I have learned... a lot from the people who've been around longer than I have. But there's little left for me here to learn from people.

Can't learn much from negative except how to become negative myself and I'd rather not see that happen to me.

I'm sooooo late.
BUT =[ Ill be sad if they take this site down ;
its my only real resource for prince

Now that a little time has passed and emotions have, to some degree, leveled out, what I want to know now is, how are things progressing?

This is legal so I know it's all about the "hurry up and wait," but has there been any progress?

SummerRain said:

That's the whole thing, though - this isn't his "shit".

Markland said

well, i betcha the trademark is registered. and if memory serves me, trademarks can be 'unofficially registered' through use in the US.

but i did not post in order to provoke a discussion about the spelling of documents on Uptown's website, or to prove for your benefit that prince's trademark is registered.

my point is that fans should not take this action personally. the cease and desist letters to prince ORG are likely just part of the overall efforts by prince's legal team to protect his material.

prince's legal team cannot target only select websites on the internet for monitoring the use of his copyright/trademark protected material. they will enforce the law across the board.

so, for people to grow personally enraged over prince's attorneys' action is, in my opinion, nothing short of

thank you. that is all
[Edited 11/15/07 10:54am]

XxAxX said:

I think assuming that anyone who is annoyed with the legal action against the sites must somehow feel personally slighted is a BIG (and incorrect) assumption to make, but since you said it, I'll humor you.

...Let's try flipping that one around, shall we?

It can also be argued that anyone who takes the time to post comments berating others for disagreeing with the actions of their favorite musician, is not entirely sane themselves.

XxAxX said:

one thing i've learnt about trademark law is you have to prove that you used all the means nessacary to keep the trade mark. Like Asprin for example beyer originally had that word trademarked but because they couldn't prove in a court of law that they protected the name it has no trademark.

XxAxX said:

Indeed. Never mind that Prince is walking all over free speech and fair use, releases false statements to discredit fellow fans, threathens them with jail and fines ... never mind all that.
Let's all pretend that never happened, cos XxAxX says you're wacky if that bothers you.

A lot of these threads make me wonder if I'm even on the same planet as many people on here.
[Edited 11/15/07 15:24pm]

I love you XxAxX, but what you said just sounds incredibly dumb to me.
Freedom of speech is a fundamental right. In stead of talking about that, and the implications of what Prince is trying to do for the web, this board is obsessed with that one guy who said Prince is a cunt, and that one picture over on b3ta. All but ready to give up individual liberty in exchange for some artificial moral fundamentalism dictated by people who see nothing but "child porn" on sites like b3ta.
It's friggin scary to me, so excuse my strong language... you're one on the people here I wouldn't want to upset.

m3taverse said:

thanks for chiming in with that personal angle.

no, you don't love me. you don't even know me.

let's leave it at that.

now, one more time let's look at the actual issues involved here

prince is protecting his copyrighted material

he is protecting his trademarked material

he is likely asking this website to snip remarks that ordinarily would not be permitted in the context of 'flaming' other ORGers.

we cannot flame each other, why should we be able to flame prince? healthy discussion? yes. flames? no.

is that really unreasonable?

is that really trampling on free speech?

don't you think that taking his actions personally, as an attack on "us" is a little bit.... weird?

just my 2c
[Edited 11/16/07 9:08am]

Are there any updates? Have there been any actual conversations with Prince's people on resolving matters?

I've still seen nothing to show that the symbol is trademarked, even on offical documentation or promotional material.

dori said:

I've been driving that bandwagon for YEARS I only gave the reins to somebody else during and after Super Bowl when he proved he could still rock the ASS outta anybody on the planet, but then he released Planet Earth and I kicked whoever was driving it then back to the curb.

m3taverse said:

XxAxX said:

when law and the courts are manipulating the system in away that only the wealthy can defend themselves then yes....he is unreasonably trampling on our freedom of speech.

XxAxX said:

OK lets put a few myths to bed here

He Who Must Not Be Named (hereafter referred to as HWMNBN) representatives not only serve a DMCA notice but also a detailed list of every item they regard as infringing

That is being claimed over more than just the material that is HWMNBN's legitimate intellectual property

Noone that I have seen has argued he should not protect his music video or commissioned photographs

What people are up in arms about is the demands to remove material that he does NOT own

If you take a photograph, you own the copyright unless you assign the rights to a third party, take it in the course of your employment, or enter into a contract governing its use

That is what people are objecting to

As for free speech

WS on behalf of HWMNBN demanded that the princefansunited website be taken down for something it stated

One of those things was a "belief"

Since when does a firm of legal thugs have the right to demand you remove a whole website because you believe something?

I strongly suggest instead of people getting personal with each other they do their research

Read the emails WS sent out to the site

Check your facts in law, god alone knows its not that hard to google for legal precedents

And will you please draw a line between HWMNBN's music and him as a person

This isnt about his music or his merits

This is about telling other people what they can do with THEIR property and where and how they can state something they believe to be true

P.S. There is NO record of HWMNBN owning ANY trademarks in the UK or Europe, quite the opposite

The word "prince" for t shirts here is registered to a US sports company, meaning that all merchandise sold at The O2 bearing the word "prince" potentially breaches the Trademarks Act 1994 section 10

I.E. breaching SOMEONE ELSES TRADEMARK

If anyone wants to check the trademark registry its at http://www.ipo.gov.uk/tm.htm

Go check yourself and tell me he owns trademarks
[Edited 11/16/07 16:39pm]

XxAxX said:

I have just noticed the section I have highlighted

Under the DMCA that is EXACTLY what they have to be

SELECTIVE

You cannot just wave the law around, hit everyone with it and apologise to the innocent afterwards

Its not "kill em all and let god sort them out" legislation

The DMCA is very clear, if you get a DMCA action wrong, you commit an offence

So if you falsely claim under the DMCA that someone removes material as you claim it as yours, you commit an offence

If you want more on the Act its here http://www.copyright.gov/...n/dmca.pdf

You also cannot "unofficially" register a trademark

Its an international standard with a burden of proof of ownership that is then entered in a register

Copyright cannot be officially registered in the UK, and copyright is usually something you claim by the use of marking it with the circled c mark or stating "Copyright joe bloggs 2007. All rights reserved"

XxAxX said:

Good. I also believe that Ben and the org mods are making, and have always made, a genuine effort to keep the boards clean in this regard.
Still, I believe there needs to be Fair Use... for example if someone wants to use the copyrighted and/or trademarked Love Symbol No. 2, they should be able to as long as it is not used in any commercial context. This includes things such as pictures of people's tattoos, and cartoons.

XxAxX said:

The intention of the org's "No flaming" rule is to prevent rude language *between orgers*. Prince is not an orger, but rather a public figure with a long history and lots of people from all over the world with opinions about him.
People *come* here to talk about Prince. So how can general site rules ever apply to him.
What you seem to be proposing is that we should stop "flaming" even non orgers. Would that mean people in P&R can't talk smack about Hillary Clinton, or Bush, anymore? No more gutter talk about Madonna, MJ, U2? Or do you propose we have this "No Flame For All Rule" just for Prince? Wouldn't that be a bit ?

This is where free speech principals start coming into play XxAxX. You and me obviously have different ideas about what acceptable speech is and what not.
In an ideal world, you do not limit my access to information, and i do not limit yours. So let all information exist, and we can individually choose what we use and what not.

XxAxX said:

yes

XxAxX said:

yes

XxAxX said:

I don't personally feel attacked in any way. I'm concerned about the abusive way Prince uses the legal system. I mean, it takes some nerve to send people a stack of legal papers with demands and threats from 5 different territories and then publically say noone is being sued. I mean wtf does that mean ... we just sent those papers to scare 'm a little? Good game Prince!
But most of all, I'm worried about the free speech implications. It's bigger than the org and bigger than Prince. This week Prince had a bunch of funny images taken down from some other site. One had me laughing so hard It was Prince with an actual raspberry as a beret on his head. Prince wanted it removed. What if every public person could just send some legal documents to anyone and that text/image/video had to go. What would be left?

Does anyone know if he is actually taking arms against Tennis gear provider "Prince" or cigarette brand "Prince" (formerly known as "Prince of Denmark")? I remember that cigarrette brand cutting off their "of Denmark" when P became TAFKAP.

Markland said:

i haven't seen the legal documents involved, you're right about that bit.

agree to disagree. the fact that we hold these different interpretations of the law would seem to indicate that a fact issue is in dispute. something that will be settled as the case developes.

me, i was only making the point that, and here it is once again in bold for simplification:

the fans should not be taking prince's actions personally.

i made this comment in response to the hate i've seen posted against prince, the artist we all purport to be 'fans' of on this website. the reason we all came here in the first place

the fact that individual members of the ORG have taken offense at my remarks, and are arguing heatedly for their right to be personally offended

kinda proves my point, eh?

and, because i am just not inclined to waste any more of my time and life energy arguing about something like this up in here, i'm out.

look for me in the real world, people!
[Edited 11/17/07 5:00am]

XxAxX said:

Not sure why you have me quoted as saying "a bunch of stuff" as I dont believe I've typed that

Anyway, as for people taking this personally, the attack on their civil liberties was a personal one

Its the rights of the individual

I keep seeing this reference to hate

I havent seen hate on here

I have seen a lot of pissed off people, but not hate

Theer is inevitably a backlash against the actions of the artist and his representatives

Frankly its one of the most appa;lingly bungled situations I have ever seen

It has all the hallmarks of public relations disaster

The way the words "hate" and "haters" are being bandied around is in the same cotext as the words "anti semitic" and "racist" are used to stifle any legitimate debate about the middle east crisis or immigration

Convenient labels to tar people with when there is no legitimate answer to points raised and a point of view runs out of moral legitimacy

The posts I saw on here before the legal thuggery started were full of people who had enjoyed 21 nights at The O2 and people discussing music etc

Now several threads are dominated by this topic

The reason?

Because people feel attacked, hurt, confused and bewildered by threats against the place they meet electronically to stay in contact and and what they can post

Is it any wonder there is a backlash?

Pissed off yes, hate no

The "hate" word seems to be the new card

Either play with the full deck or stop playing at all

P.S. as for wasting any more of your time or life on this subject, it would ahve taken you 5 minutes maximum to search the trademarks registry to see what a red herring it is that prince owns any trademarks in the UK or Europe

XxAxX said:

Just spewing more bullshit, man. You're basically bitching at other people for bitching . I get the feeling that if they shared YOUR opinion on the situation, you wouldn't have much to say about that though.

And you can prattle on about the real world, but let's be real here - you've been logging on and replying in this topic for HOW long now? You're no better.

You're just. like. everyone. else.